54 replies to this topic

[Metal Ghost]

http://www.gamasutra...I_feel_used.php

Interesting opinion piece from a developers point of view regarding used game sales.

I found the part on the bottom funny, when he calls out not having to pay sales tax.  You know, technically you do have to pay sales tax.  You're just supposed to self-report at this point if your state isn't one of the ones that's sued Amazon to collect and remit sales tax on consumers behalf, as all brick-and-morter stores are responsible for doing.  So someone is stealing money out of their state's coffers!  

[Mord]

I can't say I found it interesting myself. He brought nothing new to the argument, and still pretty much avoided the entire issue beyond saying "We feel we deserve a cut of the used market", which I don't agree with.  He tries to clarify himself in the comments but as far as I can see he just clarified he doesn't get it.

If he wants to fight off the point of Gamestop selling used copies of the game in the first week for 5 dollars off, he should encourage his publisher and the console makers themselves to put pressure on Gamestop to stop gutting and opening their product. I find that's probably one of the bigger reasons why people have come to think of 5 dollars off being a good deal - since paying that extra 5 dollars usually ends up getting you a game in the exact same condition as the used copies that you can apply extra discounts to. (making the 5 dollars off more like 10-15 dollars off)  If the quality is the same, there's no reason for a gamer to willingly pay the higher price tag.

That and probably make games that people won't beat in 2 days then get rid of it because it has zero replay value.

[theloon]

Mord said everything that needs to be said.  As usual.

I bought Fallout 3 used to see if the franchise was worth it.  They got me to buy New Vegas at full price.  They'll get me again with the "Game of the Year" edition with all the DLCs.  Without the used option I would have NEVER tried the series.  Suck it up Developers.  It's free advertisement to buy more of your product.

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

They get their "cut" the first time the game is sold, they deserve nothing more and certainly not a share of the used game market. It works fine this way for Cars, Furniture, FUCKING HOUSES, how is this any different?

[MagitekAngel]

The games industry is right, we should stop buying games used and just pirate them.

[Emehr]

@Developers and publishers: instead of whining and trying to repeat something over and over and hoping people will eventually believe it, try one or all of these...

- Price your game more realistically. The market has spoken: people don't want to spend $60 on a new game in this economy.

- Don't use Hollywood-style budgets on your games. Video games are short-lived. They have less than 1-year of shelf-life before they hit the bargain bin. That's one year of making the most you'll ever make on your title. Then *poof*, onto the next big thing. 'The Matrix' on DVD could be purchased at any time from 1999 to the present. The money the Wachowskis spent on their film could be made back over the course of ten or so years and counting. Scale back your budget.

This video game industry has flourished just fine over the past 30 years. It even rebounded from a frickin' crash. Complaining about used games is just making you look like a bunch of little bitches.

[onlysublime]

If Gamestop didn't exist, the game publishers wouldn't even think about it.  It's just when you see Gamestop making billions that make them cringe.  Consumers see games at Gamestop as if they're retail releases but Gamestop is just a gussied up middleman.  Buying a used game for $40 at Gamestop is still no different than picking up the used game out of the trash at the junkyard but yet since people paid so much for the used copy at Gamestop, they think it's worth more.

[Nuclear Pacman]

Posted this link in my other thread because I didn't see this one yet. But here it is: http://xbox360.ign.c.../1218051p1.html

It's the Saints Row devs in agreement that used game sales should stop. It looks like that original Kotaku 'rumor' has some real meat to it after all. These game companies think it's awesome for them, and sucks for gamers, and they think that's just 'fantastic' to quote the guy in this article.

[Nuclear Pacman]

Metal Ghost, on Mon Feb 6, 2012 11:34 AM, said:

http://www.gamasutra...I_feel_used.php

Interesting opinion piece from a developers point of view regarding used game sales.

I found the part on the bottom funny, when he calls out not having to pay sales tax.  You know, technically you do have to pay sales tax.  You're just supposed to self-report at this point if your state isn't one of the ones that's sued Amazon to collect and remit sales tax on consumers behalf, as all brick-and-morter stores are responsible for doing.  So someone is stealing money out of their state's coffers!  

from article:

Quote

Most game developers will agree that the Used Games market is significantly impacting the revenue we receive. I think what most consumers don't realize is that every time they buy a used game, there is ZERO money making it back to the game developers. All of those profits are going directly to the re-seller and making it more and more difficult for us to continue making higher quality products.

God F&*^%G dammit. Game devs do not have ownership claims to my property legally purchased!! I do not buy into the Marxist philosophy that it's unfair for one company (Gamestop) to enjoy more success than another (game developer). I hate having to defend Gamestop I really really do hate it so.

[Bilnick]

OldSchoolRetroGamer, on Mon Feb 6, 2012 1:34 PM, said:

They get their "cut" the first time the game is sold, they deserve nothing more and certainly not a share of the used game market. It works fine this way for Cars, Furniture, FUCKING HOUSES, how is this any different?

Don't you usually have to pay a fee to transfer the warranty services for a car, furniture, etc. if you buy it used?  I am not sure about fucking houses since I do not frequent those types of establishments, I would guess there is no warranty on those services though (maybe a no VD guarantee?)

I would equate the fee to transfer a warranty to the fee game developers want to charge, aka the online pass. Like transfering a warranty, it is your choice whether you want to pay or not.

[Emehr]

Nuclear Pacman, on Mon Feb 6, 2012 6:38 PM, said:

I hate having to defend Gamestop I really really do hate it so.

Yeah, no kidding! I don't like GameStop and I don't like sounding like I'm defending them but their business model is just that: a business model. They aren't "stealing" anything from anybody.

As far as the next Xbox not running used games: I hope it kills the console industry. I really do. Then we'll see how "fantastic" the developers think it is. If console gamers wanted a PC-gaming experience I suspect they would take up PC gaming. This stuff is acceptable to PC gamers. I have plenty of Mac games that require serial numbers and such. That's fine for a computer. Console gaming is a different culture entirely. People like trading and sharing games. This shit won't fly.

I've never seen an industry try so hard to shoot itself in the foot. This gen has been the worst I've seen in that regard.

Edited by Emehr, Mon Feb 6, 2012 7:46 PM.

[Nuclear Pacman]

This is about 1 of 2 things happening. Game companies either want a) Gamestop out of business, or b) a share of Gamestop profits.

This is actually similar to States enacting their 'Amazon Tax' laws, like the one Indiana Governer Mitch Daniels just signed into law, which was brought about by retailers claiming an unfair advantage in the marketplace by Amazon not charging sales tax on the website. Starting in 2014, people living in Indiana who buy stuff on Amazon will have the states %7 sales tax added on for all purchases, in an attempt to 'equalize the playing field' for retailers.

I have to believe that we could see a push from the big gaming companies to pressure Congress and the White House into enacting a profit sharing law dealing with this issue. Game devs are clearly stating they want a cut of what Gamestop is making off sales of 'their' used games (actually Gamestops used games).

[AtariLeaf]

Bilnick, on Mon Feb 6, 2012 7:09 PM, said:

OldSchoolRetroGamer, on Mon Feb 6, 2012 1:34 PM, said:

FUCKING HOUSES?

I am not sure about fucking houses since I do not frequent those types of establishments, I would guess there is no warranty on those services though (maybe a no VD guarantee?)

[onlysublime]

Emehr, on Mon Feb 6, 2012 7:28 PM, said:

Console gaming is a different culture entirely. People like trading and sharing games. This shit won't fly.

I've never seen an industry try so hard to shoot itself in the foot. This gen has been the worst I've seen in that regard.

How can this be the worst generation in the used market?  This gen saw the explosion of Gamestop and the Internet.  Before, you had to buy at mom and pop stores or through the newspaper.  this gen was by far the easiest and best way to get games used.

[Emehr]

onlysublime, on Mon Feb 6, 2012 8:26 PM, said:

Emehr, on Mon Feb 6, 2012 7:28 PM, said:

Console gaming is a different culture entirely. People like trading and sharing games. This shit won't fly.

I've never seen an industry try so hard to shoot itself in the foot. This gen has been the worst I've seen in that regard.

How can this be the worst generation in the used market?  This gen saw the explosion of Gamestop and the Internet.  Before, you had to buy at mom and pop stores or through the newspaper.  this gen was by far the easiest and best way to get games used.

It was just a general statement. I was referring to this gen being the worst with regards to the industry shooting itself in the foot. Sony and Microsoft mostly, maybe a dash of Nintendo... Not just this "used games are evil" debacle but DRM, DLC, Sony's tard-tastic PR moves, etc.

Edited by Emehr, Mon Feb 6, 2012 8:33 PM.

[Random Terrain]

OldSchoolRetroGamer, on Mon Feb 6, 2012 1:34 PM, said:

They get their "cut" the first time the game is sold, they deserve nothing more and certainly not a share of the used game market. It works fine this way for Cars, Furniture, FUCKING HOUSES, how is this any different?

I was thinking the same thing. But I was also thinking that every time a rich boy buys a used video game instead of a new one that he could afford to buy, the game company loses a sale. If you buy a new chair, you're probably not going to sell it in a week, and even if you did, that chair probably won't be bought and sold a thousand times after that within the first month you sold it.

Similar to what others have said, if game companies would sell their new games for around 20 bucks, more people would buy new games and since GameFlop sells used games for that price or more, it would probably put them out of business because they wouldn't be able to gouge customers anymore. Could GameFlop stay in business selling mostly 10 dollar used games?

[Reaperman]

If the publishers/developers really want to make money off of used game sales, they should be dealing in them themselves.  It wouldn't be hard to compete against a company with bloated overhead from having a brick and mortar shop ever three blocks.

Edited by Reaperman, Mon Feb 6, 2012 8:57 PM.

[asponge]

That's an excellent point.  They could implement some sort of buy-back program and then resell the used games themselves.  That makes more sense than just whining about it and expecting the industry to just bend to their whim.  I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I believe that some car manufacturers do this.

[Reaperman]

It would be a good idea, except that it would require work, while destroying resale value is nearly free and much easier.

[ls650]

I don't get the crying that they aren't getting a cut of the 2nd, 3rd, etc. sale.  Do book publishers go around whining about used book stores?

[Austin]

ls650, on Mon Feb 6, 2012 10:55 PM, said:

I don't get the crying that they aren't getting a cut of the 2nd, 3rd, etc. sale. Do book publishers go around whining about used book stores?

If they do then they clearly don't make a wild spectacle of it like the videogame industry does.

[Starscream]

I'm not gonna be popular, but, I agree with the devs.

Books - Not too much money involved in creating, publishing and fairly inexpensive to purchase.
Music - Concerts, merchandise, fees to use music on the radio, etc all generate good income on top of the sale of the cd or song
Movies - 1 showing at a theater has many paying customers, rentals, fee for HBO and the like Netflix, etc, retail sales, networks eventually showing them in prime time. Some serious bank can be made for years
Games - may cost quite a bit up front to make, sell it, no additional income can be generated with the exception of rentals but I haven't seen anything suggesting the publisher directly supplies rental companies, in some cases servers need to be maintained
Cars - Because I know someone will try to make them seem the same, they aren't and won't ever be so no need to get into that.

The system will be changing for sure. Remember when we only wanted to buy 1 song from an album and couldn't? They tried cd singles, but way too much $$$ then Napster came along and changed the system. Apple provided a perfect legal vehicle and the music industry, as far as sales go, is changed forever.

These devs, they work hard even if the game sucks. All of them for the most part are really trying to provide some good stuff with all that's available now like 3d, online, dlc, achievments ,etc. Alot is new to them too, so growing pains are expected. Once that game is sold, they can't make another dime from it unlike other industries that everyone wants to keep comparing them to. DLC? Sure, but how much? I think Online pass is a great solution. Online rentals thru the respective system would be great. 1 week rental, $15, beat the game and no worries. Cheaper than new or used, no shelf space needed, good value for everyone.

I know everyone is used to the idea that you bought, own it, can do what you want. None of us would be on this site if it wasn't for used games. But I don't see the problem with that changing.

Edited by Starscream, Tue Feb 7, 2012 12:16 AM.

[emkay]

Without reading it all....


The Game distributors should think of that fact, people who sell their games back to Gamestop, only bought their games with that option in Mind.
Not sure of the prizing today (bought my last game 7 years back (Playing some online game or free play game right now).
But , bying a game for 60$ and getting 30$ when selling it back, makes a 30$ value for the "gaming experience" .
Particular Schoolkids often buy games and play it after each other to share the prize.

They wouldn't have bought the game without that option.

All in all, game distributors get cleverer, giving games away, let people play their game and see, what the game is worth to them with the pay content, they give back.

You know, there was a time, when people spent their money on the extensive package around the game.
So it was the first wrong thinking of the game distributors to save money , when just putting a game into a DVD box.
Such a DVD box has no idealistic function. A nice Boxing "Collector's edition.... " made the buyer want to keep it.

[xg4bx]

"All of them for the most part are really trying to provide some good stuff with all that's available now like 3d, online, dlc, achievments ,etc."

i see your point but i don't remember telling them to put that stuff in the game and allow me to pay $60 for the privilege....

maybe game developers should stop spending film budgets on their dippy games and stop telling customers what they want. nobody gives a crap about 3d, there isn't even a market for it. unless your name is call of duty or battlefield don't even bother setting up an online network, your game will be a ghost town in 3 days. dlc: negligible, achievements: unnecessary.

want people to stop buying used? lower your prices, and make a demo available for EVERY game.

developers, stop pissing away money that could go towards development on movie licenses and licensed music (i'm sure harry potter and spiderman don't come cheap) and stop thinking your games graphics/sound have to have the development costs of avatar (9/10 times the best games out there don't have the best graphics). maybe you'll start rolling in more profits.

[Mord]

Nuclear Pacman, on Mon Feb 6, 2012 7:30 PM, said:

This is about 1 of 2 things happening. Game companies either want a) Gamestop out of business, or b) a share of Gamestop profits.

Hmm. Sounds like your typical thug selling "insurance" on the street corner.