65 replies to this topic

[Godzilla]

awesome find! maybe I can actually use my compumate some day

[high voltage]

nofrills100, on Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:47 AM, said:

$50+1

I've got Mangia and CTCW CIB... you won lotto recently?

But hold on...cartridge dumping devalues a game...as you keep insisting on.

I have your Mangia' and your Chase the Chuckwagon for AUS 50 each, thank you.

.

[nofrills100]

high voltage, on Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:33 AM, said:

nofrills100, on Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:47 AM, said:

$50+1

I've got Mangia and CTCW CIB... you won lotto recently?

But hold on...cartridge dumping devalues a game...as you keep insisting on.

I have your Mangia' and your Chase the Chuckwagon for AUS 50 each, thank you.

.

This is like flogging a dead horse!

'Devalues' 'no value'

[high voltage]

nofrills100, on Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:33 PM, said:

high voltage, on Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:33 AM, said:

nofrills100, on Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:47 AM, said:

$50+1

I've got Mangia and CTCW CIB... you won lotto recently?

But hold on...cartridge dumping devalues a game...as you keep insisting on.

I have your Mangia' and your Chase the Chuckwagon for AUS 50 each, thank you.

.

This is like flogging a dead horse!

'Devalues' 'no value'

OK a tenner and a Kylie Minogue CD

[Rom Hunter]

Dino, on Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM, said:

BTW, CPUWIZ DID make the bin available. He sold a run of repros to anyone who cared to play the game.

But I don't think he would be too happy if his first sold repro was dumped instantly, right?

So now we come to the unwritten rule that the .bin should only be released after the last repro of a run has been sold.

In other words: this has to do with being loyal to the owner of the original proto, who paid some serieus money for it and put effort in producing a run of nice looking repro's.

Edited by Rom Hunter, Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:23 PM.

[nofrills100]

No way!
It'd have to be a Dannii Minogue CD!

[Schizophretard]

nofrills100, on Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:46 PM, said:

The artwork v's videogame value comparison doesn't stand up in my opinion.
Largely because the artwork is a handmade unique object, where the value lies in the artist who created it. On the other hand a video game is essentially reproducable, even down to cartridge and label, and no interest lies in the artist who created it..
Besides - any artwork by DaVinci is well and truely beyond risk of being devalued by anything except damage.

What about this; I have unseen footage of President Kennedy as he was getting shot. Do you think I will get more or less for it from from News Limited after I download it to youtube?

I see your point about the Kennedy footage and that a video game can be reproduced but I don't see how video games being compared to artwork doesn't stand up. You have an awesome v-case collection. Do you value them as art? If the pirates didn't create new carts and labels but made perfect copies of official releases would you value them less? If someone was to make perfect reproductions of v-cases would you value them less than original v-cases? Video games are also art. A gamer could be completely fine with ROMs in an emulator, reproductions, or only owning a Harmony Cart but a collector is an art collector.

[atari181]

I am an "art" collector for the 2600 for sure I own multiple copies of the same ROM, but with different cases. I appreciate some of them much more than others. I absolutely have my favorites when it comes to artists(manufacturers) and display them that way.

BTW this is way off track from the original posting

[Dino]

Rom Hunter, on Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:22 PM, said:

Dino, on Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM, said:

BTW, CPUWIZ DID make the bin available. He sold a run of repros to anyone who cared to play the game.

But I don't think he would be too happy if his first sold repro was dumped instantly, right?

So now we come to the unwritten rule that the .bin should only be released after the last repro of a run has been sold.

In other words: this has to do with being loyal to the owner of the original proto, who paid some serieus money for it and put effort in producing a run of nice looking repro's.

That's what pre-orders are for   Get commitment from the buyers first before letting the first repro go. That way you are guaranteed to sell the games you make.  Despite that, of course people will not release the bin before the orignal owner sells out. Since proto holders want so much for their carts, you cant blame the buyer of the proto from trying to claw back some of the loss he incurs in making the game available to the public.  I bet cpuwiz did not make enough from the sale of power lords repros to cover the devaluation to the cart after he released the bin   We benefit from having the game available to us which comes at his loss.  So high voltage's comments about him "sitting on his high throne" or whatever was totally uncalled for...

[Dino]

high voltage, on Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:33 AM, said:

nofrills100, on Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:47 AM, said:

$50+1

I've got Mangia and CTCW CIB... you won lotto recently?

But hold on...cartridge dumping devalues a game...as you keep insisting on.

I have your Mangia' and your Chase the Chuckwagon for AUS 50 each, thank you.

.

You dont get the point. These would be worth $5k a pop if they had suddently been discovered and the rom had not been released. Now you can get them for 1/10th of that CIB no less. so you ARE getting them for a bargain....

If Sydric did not dump Extra terrestials and sold the cart instead, I bet he would have netted much more than any loose dumped cart in the rarity guide. You cannot dispute that!!

Edited by Dino, Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:48 PM.

[Dino]

Schizophretard, on Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:01 PM, said:

nofrills100, on Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:46 PM, said:

The artwork v's videogame value comparison doesn't stand up in my opinion.
Largely because the artwork is a handmade unique object, where the value lies in the artist who created it. On the other hand a video game is essentially reproducable, even down to cartridge and label, and no interest lies in the artist who created it..
Besides - any artwork by DaVinci is well and truely beyond risk of being devalued by anything except damage.

What about this; I have unseen footage of President Kennedy as he was getting shot. Do you think I will get more or less for it from from News Limited after I download it to youtube?

I see your point about the Kennedy footage and that a video game can be reproduced but I don't see how video games being compared to artwork doesn't stand up. You have an awesome v-case collection. Do you value them as art? If the pirates didn't create new carts and labels but made perfect copies of official releases would you value them less? If someone was to make perfect reproductions of v-cases would you value them less than original v-cases? Video games are also art. A gamer could be completely fine with ROMs in an emulator, reproductions, or only owning a Harmony Cart but a collector is an art collector.

Of course his V carts would not fall in value if someone started making repros. That's because they have already fallen in value from the time the bin on each cart was made available. Once that happens, you can make all the copies in the world and it wont affect the price any more.  The only thing that can affect the price of his v carts now is if a stash of originals is found.

Of course, if he were to discover a V case with an unreleased rom, that cart would be worth many times the value of his current collection of V cases since the new cart has an undumped rom on it.  Once he dumps it and releases the bin, then it will be as valuable as the rest of his V cases.

[Miss 2600]

Schizophretard, on Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:01 PM, said:

I see your point about the Kennedy footage and that a video game can be reproduced but I don't see how video games being compared to artwork doesn't stand up.

With original art, it is the legendary artist's hand making those brush marks on the canvas.  He picked up that very canvas and placed it on the easel.  His eyes gazed on that very portrait.  

Something similar was a thread started where some one put an Atari console on Craigslist claiming it was a rare, early model handmade in a garage.  Now imagine there were a handful of Atari consoles that Nolan Bushnell pieced together by hand in his garage.  Reproductions would not decrease the value of the original consoles because they were still made by Bushnell himself (not giving them as much value as DaVinci, of course).  A prototype cartridge with a sticker slapped on it doesn't have quite the same allure.

[nofrills100]

Schizophretard, on Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:01 PM, said:

nofrills100, on Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:46 PM, said:

The artwork v's videogame value comparison doesn't stand up in my opinion.
Largely because the artwork is a handmade unique object, where the value lies in the artist who created it. On the other hand a video game is essentially reproducable, even down to cartridge and label, and no interest lies in the artist who created it..
Besides - any artwork by DaVinci is well and truely beyond risk of being devalued by anything except damage.

What about this; I have unseen footage of President Kennedy as he was getting shot. Do you think I will get more or less for it from from News Limited after I download it to youtube?

I see your point about the Kennedy footage and that a video game can be reproduced but I don't see how video games being compared to artwork doesn't stand up. You have an awesome v-case collection. Do you value them as art? If the pirates didn't create new carts and labels but made perfect copies of official releases would you value them less? If someone was to make perfect reproductions of v-cases would you value them less than original v-cases? Video games are also art. A gamer could be completely fine with ROMs in an emulator, reproductions, or only owning a Harmony Cart but a collector is an art collector.

Yes I 'value' them, but not as art.
There seems to be some sort of confusion here between 'art' and 'collectables'.
It could be argued that there is artistic merit in the games, but what we are talking about here is monetary value, and in that respect these video games are 'collectables', not art works. Art works are far more complex when it comes to factors determining value.

[Omegamatrix]

I'm thankful that people are preserving these. I feared that these tapes would all degrade over time. High Voltage and Amstari are great people IMHO.

I see the dump for Songmate is mp3. DId anyone take a high quality wave file?



With pricing, it is the quantities (and fear of many more) being made available from Venezuela that is driving down the price. I don't think this game is thrilling to play beyond a curiosity. A game like Pink Panther is much more valuable because it looks like it could be a fun game. Sadly not so many rare games are fun.

With Atlantis II, that game has grown in value over the past few years (despite being dumped). It used to be a $700 game. It changed in value when someone single handily drew so much attention to it that every noob started bidding on them like they were being auctioned for Chuck e Cheese tokens.

[high voltage]

Art is entertainment, be it canvas, film or music, it serves no other purpose than to entertain. Video games entertain, hence I put them also in the art category.

[Schitti]

my two cents

It seems that the discussion is mostly a problem between collectors vs players.
There is also a third variety of people.
Some People who do not want to be in the public. These people are not interested in showing what they have in their collection.
I also know some collectors who are not a member here and they have some really nice things at home. We can not condemn people because we know what they have at home because they have posted it here.
Everyone has their own reasons and they should be respected. i can live with each decision.

[high voltage]

Dino, on Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:46 PM, said:

high voltage, on Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:33 AM, said:

nofrills100, on Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:47 AM, said:

$50+1

I've got Mangia and CTCW CIB... you won lotto recently?

But hold on...cartridge dumping devalues a game...as you keep insisting on.

I have your Mangia' and your Chase the Chuckwagon for AUS 50 each, thank you.

.

You dont get the point. These would be worth $5k a pop if they had suddently been discovered and the rom had not been released. Now you can get them for 1/10th of that CIB no less. so you ARE getting them for a bargain....

If Sydric did not dump Extra terrestials and sold the cart instead, I bet he would have netted much more than any loose dumped cart in the rarity guide. You cannot dispute that!!

No I doubt that very much.

[nofrills100]

You can lead a horse to water...

[high voltage]

Your obsession with horses in getting kinda scary.

[nofrills100]

high voltage, on Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:21 AM, said:

Your obsession with horses in getting kinda scary.

Well I'm beginning to see that you are as stubborn as a mule!

[high voltage]

That'll be the Brit in me :-)

[Trinity]

So WTF does this 'game' do? What's the point of this thread?

Edited by Trinity, Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:27 AM.

[nofrills100]

[Schizophretard]

Dino, on Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:52 PM, said:

Schizophretard, on Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:01 PM, said:

nofrills100, on Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:46 PM, said:

The artwork v's videogame value comparison doesn't stand up in my opinion.
Largely because the artwork is a handmade unique object, where the value lies in the artist who created it. On the other hand a video game is essentially reproducable, even down to cartridge and label, and no interest lies in the artist who created it..
Besides - any artwork by DaVinci is well and truely beyond risk of being devalued by anything except damage.

What about this; I have unseen footage of President Kennedy as he was getting shot. Do you think I will get more or less for it from from News Limited after I download it to youtube?

I see your point about the Kennedy footage and that a video game can be reproduced but I don't see how video games being compared to artwork doesn't stand up. You have an awesome v-case collection. Do you value them as art? If the pirates didn't create new carts and labels but made perfect copies of official releases would you value them less? If someone was to make perfect reproductions of v-cases would you value them less than original v-cases? Video games are also art. A gamer could be completely fine with ROMs in an emulator, reproductions, or only owning a Harmony Cart but a collector is an art collector.

Of course his V carts would not fall in value if someone started making repros. That's because they have already fallen in value from the time the bin on each cart was made available. Once that happens, you can make all the copies in the world and it wont affect the price any more.  The only thing that can affect the price of his v carts now is if a stash of originals is found.

Of course, if he were to discover a V case with an unreleased rom, that cart would be worth many times the value of his current collection of V cases since the new cart has an undumped rom on it.  Once he dumps it and releases the bin, then it will be as valuable as the rest of his V cases.

I can agree with that but that isn't my point. My point isn't about economic value. My point is about their value as collectible artwork. I have a movie collection of more than a thousand movies. I don't just value the art of the movies themselves but the cases, inserts, cover art, the art on the DVDs,... The more people that buy the same movies, download them, or make bootleg copies the less economic value they have. I couldn't sell them for the thousands of dollars I paid for them but that has zero affect on how I value them as collectible pieces of art. It has no affect on me at all. I don't keep a note book with lists of my movies, how much I paid for them, and compare them to their current value. I don't look to see if I can find them online and think to myself,"These pirates are decreasing the value of my movie collection!" I don't think any of that because I value them exactly the same as when I bought them. I don't care about their economic value because I don't plan on selling them. The only economic value I have for them is before I buy them and I like that value to be as low as possible.

It is the same with my Atari collection. People can dump as many ROMs or make as many reproductions as they like and it will have zero affect on how I value my collection. It is hard for me to imagine being concerned with the economic value of my collection. The only interest I would have is to help me get an idea about the rarity of something in my collection. For an example, I started a thread about my Maze Craze and Championship Soccer prototypes. I was curious about the value of them to get an understanding of their rarity but I have no desire to preserve their value. I'm not sure about my Maze Craze but my Championship Soccer is a WIP. It is different than the released version. I wanted more information than I got from the thread so I asked Wonder007 about them. He gave me useful information and said my description matched his Championship Soccer. So, I know at least 2 exist. I don't know exactly how rare it is but I'm guessing between 9 and 10. When I have it dumped it will lose economic value but I don't care. To me dumping a ROM is just as important to this hobby as collecting the originals. When you care about something you try to preserve it. People that care about endangered species don't try to preserve their rarity and economic value by trying to keep them endangered. They protect them and allow them to breed so they are no longer endangered. This is my hobby. I enjoy Atari and want others to enjoy it. Part of others enjoying it and preserving it is dumping ROMs. If someone's motivation to not dump a ROM is to preserve the economic value of their collection and they have no plans to sell it then it seems like they must have the same mindset as someone that values their diamond engagement ring not for what it represents but because it costs thousands of dollars.

[nofrills100]

That was a very moving speech Schizophretard!



I personally agree with most of what you are saying.
But I do think the core of what was inititially being debated in this thread is about the loss of monetary value from dumping an unreleased bin. especially. when a lot of money has been paid for it. For some the loss maybe irrelevant. Like you, I'd like to say I'd get a lot more out of it by releasing the bin. to others who love atari, but I don't have stacks of cash to throw around and if i'd saved that amount of cash to buy it to begin with, I'd like to know that the economic value is retained. Because what if the engine blows in my car next year, and I rely on it to get to work, and I am strapped for cash? If I had to, I could sell that cartridge and recoup my money.
I would think that all of us that have participated in this argument value atari games well beyond their monetary value - otherwise we wouldn't be here debating so passionately about it. Most of us have at some stage spent $$ on cartridges that we know may be worth less, but we are more concerned with getting hold of them to fill that void, in our almost complete Spectravideo collection for example.
I often browse over my v-case collection and just admire them, inspect them, and appreciate them as objects also. Would I call them 'art'.... i don't know... I am a artist - a painter - and I work full time in an art gallery dealing with art everyday. I don't feel that they are the same thing. I see the art in them, but I wouldn't call them Art.

Edited by nofrills100, Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:13 PM.