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Anyone have an APX Extended Fig-Forth manual?

apx fig forth manual

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#1 tschak909 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:03 AM

Hey guys, does anyone have a manual for the APX Fig-Forth? I'm wanting to do stuff in it, but the dialect that I am familiar with isn't working as expected.

Can anyone help?

-Thom

#2 Sub(Function(:)) OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:56 AM

Didn't this version of forth boot into a tutorial node?

I must admit I have never heard of any documentation for it.

Also is there any reason that you want to use Antic forth? if there is not you may want to have a look at the following link:

http://atariwiki.str....jsp?page=Forth

#3 tschak909 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:21 PM

Didn't this version of forth boot into a tutorial node?

I must admit I have never heard of any documentation for it.

Also is there any reason that you want to use Antic forth? if there is not you may want to have a look at the following link:

http://atariwiki.str....jsp?page=Forth


It's not the Antic forth, it's the APX fig-forth.

The big reason is that it precisely IS a self contained environment, that allows me full access to the disk, and when I SAVE the environment, it saves a fully boot strapped environment.

I figure if I can fix the weirdness in some of the screens, that this FORTH will provide precisely what I need (it's a minimal fig-forth, with an editor, a debugger, an assembler), so I can experiement with making bootable game disks.

-Thom

#4 lemiel OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:09 PM

Games Klatwa and Wladcy Ciemnosci were made with Extended Fig-Forth so it is possible.

#5 Sub(Function(:)) OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:41 AM

Sorry my mistake, I seem to get these mixed up, but the link

http://atariwiki.str...-Forth APX20029

might help as it has listings of the screens.

if you are in to forth then you should really have good look around Carsten's wiki

#6 tschak909 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:35 AM

I have been doing that, and using the screens as a starting point to fix the damaged screens. (Basically, I am going through each screen, cross referencing from both the disk and the aforementioned page), and am spitting out a repaired disk.

One of the parts with slightly damaged code was the editor (it's the FIG FORTH editor mentioned in the FIG FORTH INSTALLATION manual), so I used the disk, carsten's screens, and that listing to get me a functional editor that I could use to write the screens. (it's worth noting that the screens in Carsten's wiki have the same damage.)

-Thom

#7 tschak909 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:36 AM

Games Klatwa and Wladcy Ciemnosci were made with Extended Fig-Forth so it is possible.


while I know it's possible to SAVE the forth environment, which is very convienient, I'm looking to see how to make the forth environment properly start executing a word automatically...

-Thom

#8 JonnyBritish OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:08 PM

be sure to check out es forth on Atarimania

#9 tschak909 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:03 PM

I am almost done with reconstructing the APX fig-forth to a state where all the major pieces can be LOADed correctly.

-Thom

#10 Sub(Function(:)) OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:32 AM

Cool that would be nice to see.

#11 BillC OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:57 PM

I have been doing that, and using the screens as a starting point to fix the damaged screens. (Basically, I am going through each screen, cross referencing from both the disk and the aforementioned page), and am spitting out a repaired disk.

One of the parts with slightly damaged code was the editor (it's the FIG FORTH editor mentioned in the FIG FORTH INSTALLATION manual), so I used the disk, carsten's screens, and that listing to get me a functional editor that I could use to write the screens. (it's worth noting that the screens in Carsten's wiki have the same damage.)

-Thom

I couple months ago I acquired a lot which included the disk for this software, but I have yet to locate the manual. I did find a youtube video about patching the editor, oddly enough my copy of this disk also appears to have the same problem.

Perhaps APX had a batch of fig-forth floppies made from a corrupted master? I did find what appears to be a working copy on the pigwa ftp site.
Attached File  Fig Forth 1.1.atr   90.02KB   93 downloads

#12 tschak909 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:07 PM

I have been doing that, and using the screens as a starting point to fix the damaged screens. (Basically, I am going through each screen, cross referencing from both the disk and the aforementioned page), and am spitting out a repaired disk.

One of the parts with slightly damaged code was the editor (it's the FIG FORTH editor mentioned in the FIG FORTH INSTALLATION manual), so I used the disk, carsten's screens, and that listing to get me a functional editor that I could use to write the screens. (it's worth noting that the screens in Carsten's wiki have the same damage.)

-Thom

I couple months ago I acquired a lot which included the disk for this software, but I have yet to locate the manual. I did find a youtube video about patching the editor, oddly enough my copy of this disk also appears to have the same problem.

Perhaps APX had a batch of fig-forth floppies made from a corrupted master? I did find what appears to be a working copy on the pigwa ftp site.
Attached File  Fig Forth 1.1.atr   90.02KB   93 downloads


I'm almost done reconstructing the screens, I went through each, and cross referenced them with Carsten's dumps, alongside a copy of Bill Ragsdale's fig forth installation manual, which has been invaluable.

Once this is done, can someone host this? Perhaps AtariMania? This is a good FORTH, and i'll make some much needed changes to the screens to update things and I have enough documentation here to WRITE a new manual.

-Thom

#13 Sub(Function(:)) OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:04 AM

Just for information:

Regarding the APX fig forth ATR and DCM downloads. They can also be found here

http://www.atariarch...o.php?cat=20029

There are two releases however both have the same "on-screen" version number.

I do not have time to go through the screens to find out the differences :(

#14 charliecron OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:13 AM

I made a .cas file out of a working original APX FigForth 1.1 tape, if it's useful to anyone, cool.

#15 cas OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:10 PM

Once this is done, can someone host this? Perhaps AtariMania? This is a good FORTH, and i'll make some much needed changes to the screens to update things and I have enough documentation here to WRITE a new manual.

-Thom


Hi Thom,

you are always welcome to host your code on atariwiki.org.

You need to create a login and send me a short E-Mail (atariwiki@strotmann.de) so I can give you edit rights.

-- Carsten

#16 Fuji-Man OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:46 PM

Hi,

If OP still needs manual, contact me. I have a pdf scan of it. Its missing the front cover, but better than nothing, I guess.

Fuji-Man

#17 tschak909 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:14 AM

Fantastic. Yes. Please!

-Thom

Hi,

If OP still needs manual, contact me. I have a pdf scan of it. Its missing the front cover, but better than nothing, I guess.

Fuji-Man



#18 Fuji-Man OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:00 AM

PM sent.
I couldn't figure out how to post attachments.
Email me at fujiman (at) netzero (dot) net if anyone else wants it...

Edited by Fuji-Man, Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:01 AM.


#19 cas OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:20 AM

I have attached the PDF scan to the APX-Fig-Forth page in AtariWIki: http://atariwiki.de/...-Forth APX20029

#20 Atari_Ace OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:41 PM

In case anyone else is searching for a working APX Forth, I discovered the ATR's from atariarchives.com (https://www.atariarc...o.php?cat=20029) are corrupt, but the DCM files are fine (looks like a bad DCM2ATR version is out there somewhere). The archive on atarimania.com (http://www.atarimania.com/utility-atari-400-800-xl-xe-extended-fig-forth_29927.html) unfortunately currently contains the corrupt versions. I've attached regenerated ATR versions to this post.

 

The early version disk (11/10/81) interestingly isn't the earliest version, as the screens are more similar to the 2.0 version (01/15/82) than the screens in the PDF documentation on atarimania.com (http://www.atarimani...Forth_rev_1.pdf), modulo the addition of some Starting Forth screens. I'd would love to see a disk of that surface, mostly to check if the FORTH kernel portion at the beginning of the disk ever changed throughout the lifetime of the product.

 

Attached Files



#21 MrFish OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:53 PM

What exactly is the problem with the disks on Atarimania?



#22 Atari_Ace OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:25 PM

What exactly is the problem with the disks on Atarimania?

 

Some of the sectors are padded at the end with the last non-space character, instead of a spaces, which I posit is due to a bad DCM2ATR conversion.  This leads to a number of corrupt, unloadable screens.

 

For example, sector 176 looks like this.  Similar errors occur in sectors 145, 176, 238, 241, 249, 266, 267, 425, 448, 606 and 641. 

 

005790: SECTOR: 176: FILE:
     0  2d 2d 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e-3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e   -->>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    10  3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e-3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    20  3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e-3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    30  3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e-3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    40  3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e-3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    50  3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e-3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    60  3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e-3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    70  3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e-3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 



#23 MrFish OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:00 PM

Some of the sectors are padded at the end with the last non-space character, instead of a spaces, which I posit is due to a bad DCM2ATR conversion.  This leads to a number of corrupt, unloadable screens.

 

For example, sector 176 looks like this.  Similar errors occur in sectors 145, 176, 238, 241, 249, 266, 267, 425, 448, 606 and 641. 

 

005790: SECTOR: 176: FILE:
     0  2d 2d 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e-3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e   -->>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    10  3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e-3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    20  3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e-3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    30  3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e-3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    40  3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e-3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    50  3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e-3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    60  3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e-3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    70  3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e-3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e 3e   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Interesting. So, now, it makes me wonder if there are other disks that have received botched conversions

from DCM2ATR -- if that is in fact what happened here -- and the same conversion tool is being used.

 

 

The early version disk (11/10/81) interestingly isn't the earliest version, as the screens are more similar to the 2.0 version (01/15/82) than the screens in the PDF documentation on atarimania.com (http://www.atarimani...Forth_rev_1.pdf), modulo the addition of some Starting Forth screens. I'd would love to see a disk of that surface, mostly to check if the FORTH kernel portion at the beginning of the disk ever changed throughout the lifetime of the product.

 

That would be interesting to find out -- if an older version surfaces.

 

So, you're saying there are no differences in the kernel between the two version you corrected here?

That being the case, it makes sense that they both come up as v1.1 on boot -- seeing the differences

are only in the screens/functions rather than in the kernel.


Edited by MrFish, Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:01 PM.


#24 Atari_Ace OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:16 PM

 

Interesting. So, now, it makes me wonder if there are other disks that have received botched conversions

from DCM2ATR -- if that is in fact what happened here -- and the same conversion tool is being used.

 

 

That would be interesting to find out -- if an older version surfaces.

 

So, you're saying there are no differences in the kernel between the two version you corrected here?

That being the case, it makes sense that they both come up as v1.1 on boot -- seeing the differences

are only in the screens/functions rather than in the kernel.

 

I was similarly concerned, so I looked at all the APX images on atariarchives for which both DCMs and ATRs existed (about 100), and found 5 where the ATR was different than the DCM image.  Only the APX Forth images had significant differences, the other 3 had differences only in a single sector, and 2 of those were in the directory sectors (so easy to spot/fix if needed).

 

The v1.1 and v2.0 FORTH disks are essentially identical except for the addition of some screens to support Starting Forth, and a handful of minor edits in other screens.

 

Trivia: The APX FORTH assembler forgot to include TAY ;-).



#25 MrFish OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:37 PM

I was similarly concerned, so I looked at all the APX images on atariarchives for which both DCMs and ATRs existed (about 100), and found 5 where the ATR was different than the DCM image.  Only the APX Forth images had significant differences, the other 3 had differences only in a single sector, and 2 of those were in the directory sectors (so easy to spot/fix if needed).

 

Good it's not significant.

 

 

The v1.1 and v2.0 FORTH disks are essentially identical except for the addition of some screens to support Starting Forth, and a handful of minor edits in other screens.

 

I had read that about the Starting Forth Lessons, but didn't know it constituted the difference between the two versions. Good information.

 

 

Trivia: The APX FORTH assembler forgot to include TAY ;-).

 

That was done on purpose in order to encourage more use of the Forth language itself. :P

 

Thanks for all the fixes and the information. I have one of these disks on my site, so I'll definitely be updating it with your fixed image.

 






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