31 replies to this topic

[ParanoidLittleMan]

This is something about what I worked, thinkered for some time. Something what Atari people needs. Place where can find relevant infos about good old SW, diverse problems related - like compatibility, problems with  some images, cracks, where to get games, etc.
Instead new page, expanding existing Game Archive :  http://atari.8bitchi...STGA/astgam.php
The idea is to link from there to AtariMania for STX images, to host decent floppy versions - without
intros, and especially without changes, writings in game (screens) by crackers. With better TOS
compatibility than many old cracks etc. Then, infos about known problems, verification of completeness
etc. There may be even infos about on which menu disk is game available - but it is lower priority.
Priority is to sort out existing mess with tens of thousands of images avaialble online. Quality
opposite to quantity. We don't need 15 sites where can DL same, unchecked images in 3-5 versions, while
versions differ often only in listed cracker, and bootsector. Unfortunately even some 'official' sites
suffer from same problem. See Lankhor site - there are some 5 versions of Maupiti Island listed as
different cracks, while all is made by one person.    
Instead like above, I want to see checked content, where games self are in first place. So, need user
feedback, informations about what is good, tested. What is bad, on what, when and similar.

I guess that there are still many floppies in good shape of originals. But it is hard to find now what
to image, make Pasti. Not much people will go, and seek what is already on sites. Best is to have
central "Pasti image needed" list, updated regulary.

Background, reasons: not much happened in last 6 years, except Atarimania . They have really a lot of
Pasti images. But all it may be better - we need verification, some lists (as mentioned above) etc.
During adapting games for hard disk, I encountered many bad images, and even fixed some games from
multiple sources. It would be too bad that all that knowledge just waste.

If we not doing this in oncoming decade, it will be never made. As everyone know, floppies last
not forever.
It will for sure go slowly - and who expects that will see soon thousands of stuff there, or even
just thousands of infos there, will be disappointed.
Useful infos, reliable and checked content, up to date solutions is what we need.

[DarkLord]

I sure do think enough has been lost already, and I'd hate to see even more lost in the mists of time...

[wood_jl]

Unless I do not understand, PASTI is not playable on real hardware, only on emulator.  Although I am glad to see software preservation effort, I would better value software that can be run on a real ST.

[DarkLord]

I have to agree fully here. There was quite a long message thread (a few actually) over at AtariForum on
this subject.

Basically, if you don't have something like the kryoflux hardware, then apparently it's not going to happen.

http://www.kryoflux.com/

Which is why I always try to grab MSA archives of games, or the updated versions like from Dbug, Klaz,
or PPera's web site.

[Dal_1978]

wood_jl, on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:58 PM, said:

Unless I do not understand, PASTI is not playable on real hardware, only on emulator.

Not true. Using the USB version of the HxC floppy emulator, PASTI (STX) files can indeed be run on real hardware.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Yes, HxC now can run a lot of STX (Pasti) images. And it can still be improved - all depends from Jeff and how Atari people can motivate him in this not easy task.

Why Pasti in first place ?  Because it has much better perspective than Kryoflux. Pasti has one big advantage: no need for special HW, and ST(E) in good shape may serve. Another thing is that Pasti will be usable even after 50 years, when working Atari will be real sensation. I don't have anything against Kryoflux or cracks, menu disks.
But they are on opposite sides:  Kryoflux is strictly original oriented, and allows not distribution of images. My problem with menu disks is that they are product of specific era, where squizing as much possible on floppies was priority. It results in slow work (depacking is usually slow), then not rare cases that game is incomplete etc. Additionally, it is not rare to see cracker's messages in middle of game, pictures.
Kryo is strictly for exact copy of original, what can be written onto floppies.  It is nice, and would be even more nice it it would happened some 10 years ago. Now floppies are pretty outdated. Then, Kryoflux has own SW base, and as I know everyone who contributes there may get other titles (in IPF image format). So, let them to do they preservation project as they know best, and contribute if can, want.

Fact is that we still miss many Pasti images, and sad thing is that most of available online is not verified. It was idea at start that Pasti images will be validated on some way, but it never happened.  But myself dealt with many-many Pasti images, and I know about lot that they are flawless, complete. And know few, which are not OK. Some are even reimaged in meantime, and we have now 100% OK   Kid Gloves  STX at Atarimania, for instance.
The point is that it is for me just little plus work to write in some database my Pasti and other image validation results.

To get more new images, we need one central database, where everyone can quickly find what games, titles are already Pastified or MSA-ed (if no copy prot.), which are verified, which are with errors. So can without wasting much time know what to send from his collection.  As it is currently. with sites, forums hosting Pasti images, but missing easy searchable databases,  is not really motivating.

[DarkLord]

Dal_1978, on Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:28 AM, said:

wood_jl, on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:58 PM, said:

Unless I do not understand, PASTI is not playable on real hardware, only on emulator.

Not true. Using the USB version of the HxC floppy emulator, PASTI (STX) files can indeed be run on real hardware.

Hey Dal.

Okay, now I"m confused. How do I run a "usb version" of the HxC floppy emulator on my Atari ST?

That's "real hardware" to me...

Thanks!

[marakatti]

wood_jl, on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:58 PM, said:

Unless I do not understand, PASTI is not playable on real hardware, only on emulator.  Although I am glad to see software preservation effort, I would better value software that can be run on a real ST.

The good thing about Pasti for real hardware users is that the recent hacks and HD-modifications are mostly made of a fresh STX-images. So they are much more error-free and better quality than some of the ancient cracks.

[Dal_1978]

DarkLord, on Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:01 AM, said:

Dal_1978, on Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:28 AM, said:

wood_jl, on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:58 PM, said:

Unless I do not understand, PASTI is not playable on real hardware, only on emulator.

Not true. Using the USB version of the HxC floppy emulator, PASTI (STX) files can indeed be run on real hardware.

Hey Dal.

Okay, now I"m confused. How do I run a "usb version" of the HxC floppy emulator on my Atari ST?

That's "real hardware" to me...

Thanks!

Not sure I understand you Darklord?  If you purchase the USB version of the HxC Floppy Emulator and install it into your ST in place of the internal floppy drive, then you can use it to run STX images on real hardware.

If you want to take things a step further, follow my tutorial for hardware-hacking it to work as Drive A from the external port:
http://www.septicsur...mod_on_STE.html
and if you want to make it look pretty:
http://www.septicsur...or_(USB_version).html

The USB version of the HxC connects up to a PC running a special tool that mounts the disk images onto the Floppy Emulator.  Although it always requires connection to a 'slave' PC, it is more versatile than the SD-card version.

[DarkLord]

Ah, I understand now. It's just my basic ignorance of the HxC. I thought the USB version
was simply for PC's with USB connections - not actually for the ST.

The USB port is actually the transport medium, instead of the SDcard.

Thanks for clearing it up.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Unfortunately, nothing is perfect:  USB HxC has one big flaw - writing onto virtual floppies (actually images on PC) is not possible. Writing is possible only with SD HxC .
But it is another argument for Pasti - as Pasti images are not writeable. So, I guess that who prefers originals, can live with USB HxC.
And likely it is possible to solve writing - but I never tried this:  use HxC together with real floppy drive set/connected as B . Then may write gamesaves on B. Still not perfect - some games write only on A .

[wood_jl]

Any device that canNOT write to floppy image is limited.  Any device that requires a working PC (yuck!) and a tether (yuck! again - USB or whatever) to that PC is limited.  Any disk format that requires BOTH of those limited options to play on real hardware (or we would not be having this discussion in the first place, since emulators are common and often inaccurate, and REAL ST HARDWARE is awesome).......therefore SUCKS (Pasti).  If that is wrong, please explain what is wrong with that observation.  Seriously.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

We went little off topic, as it is usual. If you want to discuss about HxC, start new topic, or go on HxC forum.
Pasti sucks ? Working PC - that must be rare thing in homes
Real ST is awesome - let's say that you are right, and that it is awesome even today. But how will be after 10 years. I'm afraid that only choice for most of people will be PC and emulation.

Now, if you don't like Pasti, get Kryoflux and copy originals as much you want.
Myself hate floppies, and will never buy any more.
Pasti is very useful for making hard disk adaptations, for instance. But I guess that it is something what not much people experienced

What is wrong with your observation - many, even just to mention . I don't think that good Atarian is someone who talks totally biased. Hating PC means not beeing better Atarian, believe me.

[DarkLord]

wood_jl, on Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:01 PM, said:

Any device that canNOT write to floppy image is limited.  Any device that requires a working PC (yuck!) and a tether (yuck! again - USB or whatever) to that PC is limited.  Any disk format that requires BOTH of those limited options to play on real hardware (or we would not be having this discussion in the first place, since emulators are common and often inaccurate, and REAL ST HARDWARE is awesome).......therefore SUCKS (Pasti).  If that is wrong, please explain what is wrong with that observation.  Seriously.

This is almost exactly the same discussion I had with Jeff in another thread (can't remember if it was here or at AtariForum).

Don't get me wrong, Jeff's HxC design is brilliant. It works great, and it makes a lot of people very happy.

I was even interested for awhile, was thinking about buying one - until I found out more details. I think I commented
to Jeff  that I didn't want to use anything on my Atari's that required another computer to use. Also, its limited to
floppy drive speeds. I'm glad its out there and available for those who want it. Choice/options are always good.

But basically its not for me. That's okay though, I've got an Ultrasatan. Or 2...

[Official Ninja]

DarkLord, on Thu Mar 1, 2012 7:40 AM, said:

. I think I commented to Jeff  that I didn't want to use anything on my Atari's that required another computer to use..........
I've got an Ultrasatan. Or 2...

Unless its the Atari 8 bit. Sio2pc works just perfectly. I guess because the sio is serial communication it just works good with no mods to the hardware at all.

You have an ultra Satan or two more than me.. I'm still waiting, and no communication. Shitty thing is I want to order an 2nd one too.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

SD card based HxC does not need PC. At least not while playing on Atari. But I guess that must have some PC or MAC to fill SD with floppy images.

Quote by Official Ninja: "Unless its the Atari 8 bit. Sio2pc works just perfectly. I guess because the sio is serial communication it just works good with no mods to the hardware at all."  .  USB is serial too. And no mods in HW needed, when you attach HxC to Atari.  So, I don't know what is your point.
I'm sure that USB HxC could be made so, that can write onto floppy images. Why it is not so, Jeff knows best.

In any case, as said nothing is perfect.  Every way has it's goods and bads.  Floppies are most standard, but very unreliable and drives are usually in not good shape.
HxC has it's flaws, as mentioned. Hard disk based solutions can not run all SW.
Kryoflux is good for people having many originals, but is based on using exlusively floppies.

[DarkLord]

Official Ninja, on Thu Mar 1, 2012 9:43 AM, said:

Unless its the Atari 8 bit. Sio2pc works just perfectly. I guess because the sio is serial communication it just works good with no mods to the hardware at all.

I actually have a sio2pc that I was figuring on eventually trying with my 'Nix box. Never got it out of its package yet. <rolls eyes>

Official Ninja, on Thu Mar 1, 2012 9:43 AM, said:

You have an ultra Satan or two more than me.. I'm still waiting, and no communication. Shitty thing is I want to order an 2nd one too.

Yeah, I'm really sorry about that too man. I hate to see things like that happen in the Atari community, especially when it just doesn't make any sense.   I hope its resolved soon!

[krupkaj]

I have read somewhere that there is limited possibility to use PASTI with the SD version of HxC. But what are these limitation? How many of images will work with SD HxC. Do you have any info about that?

[ParanoidLittleMan]

The problem with SD version of HxC is that can not emulate all variations of floppy bitrates. Since protections like Copylock are based on 1 sector written with about 3% smaller bitrate than others, and checking it, it will fail with SD HxC .  And Copylock is used a lot.
This is what I know. People having SD HxC should check some titles - with and without Copylock. Will be some updates about it ? Who knows ?

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Here is fresh missing Pasti images list at AM :  http://www.atarimani...php?f=8&t=17781
So, please take look into and in your collection and help to have more titles online.

I will make some smaller list, based on titles only - for easier overview, and to ensure at least one version of game. There are still some popular games missing, like Blood Money.

[CyranoJ]

There's something up with Blood Money but I can't remember what.  Either pasti cannot image it correctly, or it can't boot on any of the emulators from a pasti image. Either way, a Blood Money pasti image is pointless.

[DarkLord]

I'll give it a shot...but if it won't boot from an emulator...  <shrugs>

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Yes, there are some games which fail in Steem because of protection not perfectly emulated (or possible bug). Another example is Warp by Thalion.
Still, we need their Pasti images.  There is HxC emulator with improved STX support, so may happen that it will work with HxC. Then, someone may go into solving Steem problems with this few titles (sources are online almost for year). And having Pasti image helps in knowing protection type of game and other things, not possible to see from cracks.  So, we need absolutely Blood Money to be Pastified.
I'm sure that AM crew can add note about problems with Steem by this couple titles.

Edited by ParanoidLittleMan, Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:48 AM.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

I just checked Blood Money (upped by DarkLord, I guess) - it works fine with USB HxC and STE. So, DarkLord, your effort was not for nothing :-)
Warp:  it shows GrandSlam logo, Thalion logo and music, but then stucks at level load. Still, more than with Steem.
Third game:  Knight Force :  works well via HxC (what means not that is playable too, but that's another story) .

In any case, tracing on real ST(E) may help in finding what is exact point when fails on Steem. I will try with Blood Money, when will have some time.
Easier with STX than seeking and buying original floppy  

[oky2000]

We need to start scanning ST magazines and game covers too. Rare to make up/find full sets of mags from ebay already thanks to the ridiculous 10% fees on postal costs as well as sale price.