44 replies to this topic

[Tenorman]

I like playing Ghouls N Ghosts on the Genesis quite a bit, but of course it isn't going to look as good as the SuperGrafx version.  We are comparing a very early Genesis game (launch title even) with a 5 Mbit ROM with an 8 Mbit game that relies on a heavily expanded PC Engine here.

Anyway, they are both good ports of the game, and if you actually want to buy something it is a heck of a lot cheaper to get a Genesis and a copy of Ghouls N Ghosts than it is to import a SuperGrafx and Daimakaimura.

[Arkhan]

Tenorman, on Sun Apr 1, 2012 9:06 AM, said:

I like playing Ghouls N Ghosts on the Genesis quite a bit, but of course it isn't going to look as good as the SuperGrafx version.  We are comparing a very early Genesis game (launch title even) with a 5 Mbit ROM with an 8 Mbit game that relies on a heavily expanded PC Engine here.

Anyway, they are both good ports of the game, and if you actually want to buy something it is a heck of a lot cheaper to get a Genesis and a copy of Ghouls N Ghosts than it is to import a SuperGrafx and Daimakaimura.

Heavily expanded? Lol....  It's just got a second video chip, AKA 2 BG layers.   The genesis has what, 3?

The reason the SGX one looks better is the PCE can have more colors per sprite and more colors per tile.

Even the plain PC Engine can do that.  It's always been the case.

The Genesis has a 68k CPU.  It can push its hardware easier because of it.

Using a 65C02 to deal with the SuperGrafx hardware isn't exactly easy.

SuperGrafx Daimakaimura is a feat of programming prowess, and taking full advantage of the color depth of the video hardware.   Comparing the ROM sizes as the reason for which is better is a bad comparison.

[Tenorman]

Arkhan, on Wed Apr 4, 2012 7:41 AM, said:

Heavily expanded? Lol....  It's just got a second video chip, AKA 2 BG layers.   The genesis has what, 3?

The reason the SGX one looks better is the PCE can have more colors per sprite and more colors per tile.

Even the plain PC Engine can do that.  It's always been the case.

The Genesis has a 68k CPU.  It can push its hardware easier because of it.

Using a 65C02 to deal with the SuperGrafx hardware isn't exactly easy.

SuperGrafx Daimakaimura is a feat of programming prowess, and taking full advantage of the color depth of the video hardware.   Comparing the ROM sizes as the reason for which is better is a bad comparison.

It's got more memory too.

Yes, you are right that the color capabilities on the Genesis leave a lot to be desired.  You would be wrong however to argue that it couldn't look a lot better on the Genesis than it does if it was released later rather than at launch.

The ROM size comparison is perfeclty valid as well.  The ROM size of the PC Engine game is almost twice as big, this allows for a greater number of tiles, more frames of animation, more different sprites, etc.

Look at this set of screen comparisons in partcular:


Just from a quick glance I can see the ground in the PC Engine version is made up of at least 5-6 different tiles.  At least two for the dirt, and at least 3-4 for the roots.  The ground in the Genesis version is only made up of one tile for dirt and the roots are gone completely.

This is exactly the kind of compromise that is made because of a smaller ROM size.

[Tenorman]

Arkhan, on Wed Apr 4, 2012 7:41 AM, said:

The reason the SGX one looks better is the PCE can have more colors per sprite and more colors per tile.

This isn't quite true.  Both systems are limited to 16 colors per sprite or tile.  The PC Engine just allows for a for greater number of sub-palettes to be selected from for each sprite or tile.  All tiles and sprites for the Genesis have to come from 4 different 16 color sub-palettes, the PC Engine allows for 16 sprite and 16 background palettes.

[Paranoia Dragon]

Arkhan, on Wed Apr 4, 2012 7:41 AM, said:

Tenorman, on Sun Apr 1, 2012 9:06 AM, said:

I like playing Ghouls N Ghosts on the Genesis quite a bit, but of course it isn't going to look as good as the SuperGrafx version.  We are comparing a very early Genesis game (launch title even) with a 5 Mbit ROM with an 8 Mbit game that relies on a heavily expanded PC Engine here.

Anyway, they are both good ports of the game, and if you actually want to buy something it is a heck of a lot cheaper to get a Genesis and a copy of Ghouls N Ghosts than it is to import a SuperGrafx and Daimakaimura.

Heavily expanded? Lol....  It's just got a second video chip, AKA 2 BG layers.   The genesis has what, 3?

The reason the SGX one looks better is the PCE can have more colors per sprite and more colors per tile.

Even the plain PC Engine can do that.  It's always been the case.

The Genesis has a 68k CPU.  It can push its hardware easier because of it.

Using a 65C02 to deal with the SuperGrafx hardware isn't exactly easy.

SuperGrafx Daimakaimura is a feat of programming prowess, and taking full advantage of the color depth of the video hardware.   Comparing the ROM sizes as the reason for which is better is a bad comparison.

The Genesis has 2 bg layers IIRC.

[Arkhan]

Tenorman, on Wed Apr 4, 2012 6:15 PM, said:

This isn't quite true.  Both systems are limited to 16 colors per sprite or tile.  The PC Engine just allows for a for greater number of sub-palettes to be selected from for each sprite or tile.  All tiles and sprites for the Genesis have to come from 4 different 16 color sub-palettes, the PC Engine allows for 16 sprite and 16 background palettes.

Wow, I worded that poorly!  

I should have said "more color variety" or "more palette variety".  It made sense in my head to say "colors per sprite/tile", though, you're right that doesn't quite make sense and doesn't have the same mathematical-proportion-nonsense meaning as it did when I thought of it in my head.

Anyway, 61 on screen colors for the Genesis  VS. the 481 available on screen for the PC Engine is a bit of an obnoxious skew.  I really don't remember seeing any really-really-colorful games until way later into the genesis' life with stuff like Ristar and Sonic 3.

It's the reason alot of Sega games have ditherfests (Super Hydlide is a big culprit there).  I could have sworn the MD had some other limitation to coloring tiles, but I wouldn't be surprised if I've mixed that up with some other platform I've only read about in passing and never actually did any dev for.

Though I would still say comparing the ROM sizes is a bad comparison.  Even if they had the same ROM size, I'd bet the SGX one would still look better.  

As an example of this, compare Lords of Thunder for PCE and MegaCD.  It's a PLAIN PCE game, not a SGX one.  You'll quickly see that the PCE one looks better.  You could do this for other games too that exist on both platforms.  Typically, the PC Engine wins out because of colors.  

There are plenty of PCE vs. Genesis (PLAIN PCE, not SGX.) comparisons showing the Genesis not doing as good simply due to the color limitations.  More ROM size isn't going to increase the amount of on screen colors at all, so even if you have more space for tiles, you're still going to have a bunch of redundant colors and general "blehness" brought on by not being able to use alot of colors.

I like this one:
http://pcengine.co.u...tten_Worlds.htm

Yeah you get the advantage of a CD for the PCE one, but you also have the disadvantage of having to stop and load new crap.  This isn't always great.  

Also, the Genesis has twice the workram of the SGX (doesn't it?).  The SGX has more VRAM, but with shades of gray here.  It's got two VDCs to work with, so 64k per VDC.  

@ Paranoia, I thought the Genesis had 3 planes, but two share the same space.   I'm not 100% sure though, since I don't do any Genesis dev.  Just PC Engine.


EDIT: Also, all of this aside, the Genesis one is still great.  I grew up playing that one, and still think it's awesome.  I like the Genesis a lot, even if the PCE is prettier.

Edited by Arkhan, Thu Apr 5, 2012 8:38 AM.

[Tenorman]

Arkhan, on Thu Apr 5, 2012 8:27 AM, said:

There are plenty of PCE vs. Genesis (PLAIN PCE, not SGX.) comparisons showing the Genesis not doing as good simply due to the color limitations.  More ROM size isn't going to increase the amount of on screen colors at all, so even if you have more space for tiles, you're still going to have a bunch of redundant colors and general "blehness" brought on by not being able to use alot of colors.

Yes, that is true that the lack of color variety is always going to be very noticable no matter what you do.  Still, the Genesis version is missing added graphic detail that it could easily have with a bigger cart.

Don't get me wrong here, I am not trying to put the PCE down in any way.  I think it is a great system and I am a fan of it myself.  I'm a big fan of all the "16-bit" systems, the Genesis is probably just my favorite by a hair.

I just want to make the point that if you are looking to compare the capabilites of both systems that Ghouls 'N Ghosts probably isn't the best game to do it with, and while it isn't the absolute prettiest version it is still a respectable port, easy to obtain, and fun.

[BillyHW]

Super GnG on SNES was a superior game.

[mbd30]

BillyHW, on Thu Apr 5, 2012 7:19 PM, said:

Super GnG on SNES was a superior game.

I love "Super GnG" but some are put off by the occasional slowdown.

[Austin]

BillyHW, on Thu Apr 5, 2012 7:19 PM, said:

Super GnG on SNES was a superior game.

Arguably, heh. It plays slower, it axes the vertical shooting in favor of double-jumping, and it is a completely new game (with lots of slowdown, as mentioned) for better or for worse.

[Arkhan]

BillyHW, on Thu Apr 5, 2012 7:19 PM, said:

Super GnG on SNES was a superior game.

Hi, this is 100% wrong. Please stop now.

Tenorman, on Thu Apr 5, 2012 6:19 PM, said:

Arkhan, on Thu Apr 5, 2012 8:27 AM, said:

There are plenty of PCE vs. Genesis (PLAIN PCE, not SGX.) comparisons showing the Genesis not doing as good simply due to the color limitations.  More ROM size isn't going to increase the amount of on screen colors at all, so even if you have more space for tiles, you're still going to have a bunch of redundant colors and general "blehness" brought on by not being able to use alot of colors.

Yes, that is true that the lack of color variety is always going to be very noticable no matter what you do.  Still, the Genesis version is missing added graphic detail that it could easily have with a bigger cart.

Don't get me wrong here, I am not trying to put the PCE down in any way.  I think it is a great system and I am a fan of it myself.  I'm a big fan of all the "16-bit" systems, the Genesis is probably just my favorite by a hair.

I just want to make the point that if you are looking to compare the capabilites of both systems that Ghouls 'N Ghosts probably isn't the best game to do it with, and while it isn't the absolute prettiest version it is still a respectable port, easy to obtain, and fun.

I love the Genesis just a hair under the PCE, lol.  I basically like everything though and happily point out the pros and cons of all the systems.

1 background layer SUCKS on the PC Engine..

so bad.

[Paranoia Dragon]

Arkhan, on Thu Apr 5, 2012 10:32 PM, said:

BillyHW, on Thu Apr 5, 2012 7:19 PM, said:

Super GnG on SNES was a superior game.

Hi, this is 100% wrong. Please stop now.

Tenorman, on Thu Apr 5, 2012 6:19 PM, said:

Arkhan, on Thu Apr 5, 2012 8:27 AM, said:

There are plenty of PCE vs. Genesis (PLAIN PCE, not SGX.) comparisons showing the Genesis not doing as good simply due to the color limitations.  More ROM size isn't going to increase the amount of on screen colors at all, so even if you have more space for tiles, you're still going to have a bunch of redundant colors and general "blehness" brought on by not being able to use alot of colors.

Yes, that is true that the lack of color variety is always going to be very noticable no matter what you do.  Still, the Genesis version is missing added graphic detail that it could easily have with a bigger cart.

Don't get me wrong here, I am not trying to put the PCE down in any way.  I think it is a great system and I am a fan of it myself.  I'm a big fan of all the "16-bit" systems, the Genesis is probably just my favorite by a hair.

I just want to make the point that if you are looking to compare the capabilites of both systems that Ghouls 'N Ghosts probably isn't the best game to do it with, and while it isn't the absolute prettiest version it is still a respectable port, easy to obtain, and fun.

I love the Genesis just a hair under the PCE, lol.  I basically like everything though and happily point out the pros and cons of all the systems.

1 background layer SUCKS on the PC Engine..

so bad.

True, it does, it would've been nice to have just 1 more layer, though, there is the wow factor when a Turbo game fakes paralax anyways.  I do love finding ways around limits(not that I can do this, I have to rely on guys like you & Nod).

[Cybergoth]

Austin, on Thu Apr 5, 2012 8:09 PM, said:

BillyHW, on Thu Apr 5, 2012 7:19 PM, said:

Super GnG on SNES was a superior game.

Arguably, heh. It plays slower, it axes the vertical shooting in favor of double-jumping, and it is a completely new game (with lots of slowdown, as mentioned) for better or for worse.

Still, I'd agree that Super is the best game in the series. I'd recommend the version in CCC,  since there's no more slowdown

[Austin]

Cybergoth, on Sat Apr 7, 2012 1:45 AM, said:

Austin, on Thu Apr 5, 2012 8:09 PM, said:

BillyHW, on Thu Apr 5, 2012 7:19 PM, said:

Super GnG on SNES was a superior game.

Arguably, heh. It plays slower, it axes the vertical shooting in favor of double-jumping, and it is a completely new game (with lots of slowdown, as mentioned) for better or for worse.

Still, I'd agree that Super is the best game in the series. I'd recommend the version in CCC,  since there's no more slowdown

Yeah, it's my personal favorite in the series as well. I love the visual and sound style here, but I also have more nostalgic ties to it than Ghouls 'n Ghosts (that I didn't play until after the SNES game). Still, it was more about how he came off about it and recognizing the fact that both have a different feel and some may prefer the arcade game over the SNES original.

[Rex Dart]

Hardly a complete game, I know, but I can't let this thread go without some NGPC:

[Austin]

Just wanted to write that I've been playing my newly-acquired SuperGrafx Ghouls 'n Ghosts the last couple of days and wanted to give my thoughts on it. Looking at screens and a couple of videos prior to receiving it, I was naturally expecting a lot from it, and was pretty excited to get it. Overall it's a great port with the best looking visuals of the console conversions from this period in time (late '80s/early '90s), but the game does have some noteworthy differences, and some problems I wasn't expecting at all.

So, first off, here are some differences I've caught. For one, you get a whopping three credits to finish the game (you use one to start the game, giving you two to continue). I don't mind this for the challenge, but this is pretty bad for people that aren't very good at this game (which I'm guessing is a lot of people). Maybe there is a cheat to circumvent this, but I haven't checked. Second, if you power off the system and turn it back on quickly, it will display a "ROM check" screen that somewhat mimics what the arcade game does when it boots. Kind of cool, I suppose. Third, the difficulty on certain segments feels ramped up a little bit--primarily on the vertical segment at stage 3-1. The little flying goblin enemies (or whatever) seem to be much more abundant here than in the Genesis or Arcade versions. To sort of go along with this, the difficulty seems somewhat random as well. Sometimes enemies will be few and far between, but other times it will feel like there's an all-out war happening on screen. It makes predicting and practicing segments more challenging than in other versions.

Next, the problems I've caught. First, there is a good bit of flicker when things get cluttered on screen. It's the most noticeable at the last stage, but there are specific instances throughout the rest of the game where it typically happens (the mouth statues on stage 3-2 tend to be a culprit). Second, there is noticeable slowdown at points. It's nowhere near Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts levels, but it's definitely there and caught me off guard. I don't recall the Genesis version having any slowdown. Third, the game is kind of buggy. On one occasion, my lives didn't appear in the bottom-right corner of the screen like they are supposed to. They didn't reappear until I lost all three lives and continued. On another occasion, I fell through one of the bridges on the sand pit area on stage 2-1. Normally the bridges will snap apart on certain segments, but I literally fell through the bridge and it didn't rip apart. I don't even think it was a segment that was supposed to snap. The last bug that was noticeable to me is several enemies failed to appear on the vertical flowing water portion of stage 4-2. The first time I got there, several of the big hand enemies didn't appear. This led me to believe that the enemy layout was modified for this version. Nope--it turned out it was a glitch of some sort, as they reappeared when I got to the stage for my second time (just for reference, there is no difficulty select screen in this version, ruling out that explanation).

[BillyHW]

You got to stage 4-2 with only 3 credits?  My hat goes off to you.  

[high voltage]

You forgot two 16-bit platforms: Atari ST and Amiga

[sheath]

You all might have seen this already, but since the SuperGrafx and its version of Ghouls N Ghosts is getting so much attention I thought it was worth adding.

Edited by sheath, Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:16 AM.

[Austin]

sheath, on Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:15 AM, said:

You all might have seen this already, but since the SuperGrafx and its version of Ghouls N Ghosts is getting so much attention I thought it was worth adding.

Yeah, that was the instigating video that got me to try to finally spring for the SuperGrafx version.