165 replies to this topic

[Dino]

Dino, on Wed May 9, 2012 6:58 AM, said:

Rom Hunter, on Wed May 9, 2012 3:20 AM, said:

Ok then (sorry, it's too tempting):

- Nagn2 discovered an ad in a Christian magazine.

- He decided not to mention this to the community, because he wanted to create The Ultimate VCS Hoax.

- He found or created a fitting cartridge type for the game.

- He self-designed a fitting front label and end label containing not exactly the same, but slightly different info than the info in the ad.

- He made up a model number for the game.

- He found a way to print the front and end label in the same way as they did back in the eighties.

- He made the cart look older with some dust, scratches and end label folds.

- He programmed a playable game based on the single screenshot from the ad.

- He lied to the community about finding the cart himself.

- He eventually wants to fool the whole community after years and years of stalling the ROM dump.


Makes perfect sense to me.

But still I think I'll keep the game in our database, if you don't mind.

Sounds remarkably similar to the steps Krypton would have taken to make his green labelled Guardian cart. For $6.5k (which I believe is nagn's MINIMUM asking price) it doesn't seem unreasonable to put that kind of effort in. i bet cpuwiz could easil have pulled this off.

What makes me so suspicious about this whole affair is how nagn's attitude totally changed once mention was made of analysing the rom to confirm it didnt use "modern techniques

The other thing that doesn't make sense is if Nagn's cart was truly legit, and if he was the reseller he is claiming to be, then why hasn't he sold it yet. And I don't accept this rubbish about it not being in the database. Any respectable reseller would have put the cart on the market by now. He hasn't even tested the market. Other resellers would at the very least have listed it for a ridiculous BIN amount on a free listing and see what offers they get. That would aslo bring a lot of awareness to his cart, if awareness is what's holding back the sale. I still have a sneaking suspicion that this particular cart is not legit. That is the ONLY conceivable, logical reason why an exeprienced reseller would STILL have a cart of this value in their possession and not have at least attempted to sell it. The only other reason would be that he is a sandwich short of a picnic and therefore his decisions are illogical.

[nofrills100]

Dino, on Thu May 10, 2012 1:52 AM, said:

The other thing that doesn't make sense is if Nagn's cart was truly legit, and if he was the reseller he is claiming to be, then why hasn't he sold it yet. And I don't accept this rubbish about it not being in the database. Any respectable reseller would have put the cart on the market by now. He hasn't even tested the market. Other resellers would at the very least have listed it for a ridiculous BIN amount on a free listing and see what offers they get. That would aslo bring a lot of awareness to his cart, if awareness is what's holding back the sale. I still have a sneaking suspicion that this particular cart is not legit. That is the ONLY conceivable, logical reason why an exeprienced reseller would STILL have a cart of this value in their possession and not have at least attempted to sell it. The only other reason would be that he is a sandwich short of a picnic and therefore his decisions are illogical.

I'm also undecided, but am leaning towards the 'lost a few sandwiches' theory.
However whilst by all means there is a strong and logical case that this is legit - photo's, videos, and advertisements after his discovery etc... there is also a chance that he put together the cart based on the advert, and has enough programming skills to mock up the game.
Considering no one has seen the cart in the flesh, it is true speculation as to whether the print quality is genuine and fits the era, and then even if it does there is always the possibility that this can be recreated with the right equipment. Given the value that the cart would demand it wouldn't be crazy to put a lot of time into researching and recreating it as accurately as possible. (And you could moreso apply the same theory to the Air Raid box)
So why then would he be stalling on the sale of the item? Let say he has all his 'sandwiches', and has actually cunningly put this thing together. Perhaps with such a pristine label he wasn't banking on experts talking about removing it and examining the insides. Perhaps he didn't expect that experts could analyse the rom and the program, and forensically break it down to find out whether it was legit or not. Suddenly there is a high chance that whoever he sells it to is going to have it thoroughly examined, and then, if it is found to be a fake he has committed a crime... now he is having second thoughts... how is he going to pull it off without getting busted? Make it official, get it put it on the most respectable databases AA & Atarimania, get people to believe it beyond doubt, wait for that person who doesn't need convincing to make the right offer.

All I can do is put myself in his shoes... I know without a doubt if I wanted to sell this for maximum $$ I would post pics and videos like he did for starters. Then if neccessary, take it one step further - I mean we are talking a nice chunk of cash for something that cost a few bucks right! - if someone with a good reputation wants proof before committing to a big amount, I would either tell them to come and see it in person, or I would take a budget flight to them and factor that into the final price. TOO EASY!!!

[Miss 2600]

nofrills100, on Thu May 10, 2012 4:02 AM, said:

All I can do is put myself in his shoes... I know without a doubt if I wanted to sell this for maximum $$ I would post pics and videos like he did for starters.

I think that is his mindset.  He mentioned in the original thread that he was a gambler and didn't mind waiting for the best price.  He didn't want to sell it and regret that he could have gotten more if, for example, he had waited for the ad to be discovered first or, in his opinion, he had waited for the game to be listed in the AA database so potential buyers would be aware of its existence and rarity.  He waited 4 years for some one to discover the ad.  He obviously isn't in a hurry and doesn't need the $.

Did he say that he was a regular reseller of games or was it just the Music Machine he sold?  He was offered $80 for MM from an AA member and ended up getting about four times that amount on eBay, so I can understand he skeptism of AA offers.

[nofrills100]

Miss 2600, on Thu May 10, 2012 5:11 AM, said:

I think that is his mindset.  He mentioned in the original thread that he was a gambler and didn't mind waiting for the best price.  He didn't want to sell it and regret that he could have gotten more

If he was a true gambler he would have taken the best offer and put it towards something with far better odds of a much higher return.

[Pioneer4x4]

I am not in the market for anything in the multiple hundreds of dollars range.  If we all agreed that this was produced in the 1980s, and a small batch was made.  And it is the one pictured in the ad that I have personally seen.  What is the concensus on value?  Is it multiple thousands?  I am very interested in its history, but not enough to EVER be a purchaser.  And the original author has been contacted by nagn correct?  Why can't we ask him about the ad?
I wouldn't be surprised if it was a legit title from then, it is a hack of sorts.  Seeing how difficult it is to create/produce one of these back then, to intentionally limit your market by advertising that way, is almost like hiding it.

[nofrills100]

Funny how Steve Stack is equally as unenthusiastic as Nagn about selling any Red Sea cartridges he has in his possession - unless someone really makes it worth his while. PingvinBlueJeans spoke to him here: http://www.atariage....25#entry1375736 and there does seem to be some comparisons in character.

Crazy scenario 3: Steve Stack = Nagn
Say you were Steve Stack, and you had a bunch of these carts that never sold. And one day you dig them out of the attic and decide to see what an online Atari community thinks of them. Suddenly you see that these things are highly collectable now. Obviously it is worth more if you only have one, and you want to get top dollar for that one, because the buyer may release the rom, and as soon as you put the second one on the market the value will drop. You even drop a hint to them being advertised in religious magazines.





*btw
Crazy scenario 1: Man finds rare cartridge in a garage sale, but won't sell because he wants a crazy price.
Crazy scenario 2: Man creates fake cartridge based on an undiscovered ad in a religious magazine.

It's all crazy!

Edited by nofrills100, Thu May 10, 2012 6:34 AM.

[Pioneer4x4]

nofrills100, on Thu May 10, 2012 5:38 AM, said:

Funny how Steve Stack is equally as unenthusiastic as Nagn about selling any Red Sea cartridges he has in his possession - unless someone really makes it worth his while. PingvinBlueJeans spoke to him here: http://www.atariage....25#entry1375736 and there does seem to be some comparisons in character.

Crazy scenario 3: Steve Stack = Nagn
Say you were Steve Stack, and you had a bunch of these carts that never sold. And one day you dig them out of the attic and decide to see what an online Atari community thinks of them. Suddenly you see that these things are highly collectable now. Obviously it is worth more if you only have one, and you want to get top dollar for that one, because the buyer may release the rom, and as soon as you put the second one on the market the value will drop. You even drop a hint to them being advertised in religious magazines.





*btw
Crazy scenario 1: Man finds rare cartridge in a garage sale, but won't sell because he wants a crazy price.
Crazy scenario 2: Man creates fake cartridge based on an undiscovered ad in a religious magazine.

It's all crazy!

I (in partial jest) suggested and agree with 1&2, but I never thought about the simple solution that #3 suggests!
Sell one for $$$$$, then find the creators stash, and sell 2-10 more for $$$.  Then trickle them out for $$.
I have yet another conspirancy theory to add.
Say you have 1 and only 1 of something rumored/known.  No one had a real description or image of labels or gameplay except you.  Get a 1980 Okidata color printer & paper.  Make up a bunch of labels so they all match, burn roms & put in old carts.  Now you have a bunch of something never seen.  THEN sell the 1 and only newly created for $$$$$ ,then trickle out more  and they will all match the first, exactly...
That is one reason why I am not interested in small production runs.   I am too skeptical, and too cheap!

BUT I am still interested in this whole thread, and how it was marked as being bundled with an audio cassette.  Which I am now sure was never related to the production of the cassette, just bundled independantly.

Edited by Pioneer4x4, Thu May 10, 2012 7:10 AM.

[Propane13]

Wow; that thread was 5 years ago.

So, a follow-up; did Albert ever ping Steve, as was recommended in that post?
Secondly, again-- does anyone live near that portion of Ohio, and want to try to go verify nagn's cart?
It can't be impossible that someone's not in the area.
Heck, this thread is making me want to drive all the way from the east coast out there to see the thing, but I'm no expert in hardware nor printing procedures, so I am probably not the right guy.
Suspicion or not, I'm surprised that nobody here wants to pick up the gauntlet and go on a trip-- they could end up finding a unique piece of history.

Incidentally, since this is becoming a weird thread, I want to clear some air here.
It was I who offered the $80 for Music Machine.  I put in a low-ball offer to try to be the first one to go for it.
I have a friend that has the high score in the game, and wanted to get it as a present.

Additionally, everybody else was going bonkers over Red Sea Crossing, and nobody cared about Music Machine, so I thought I would have a chance.

At the time, $80 was all I was willing to afford on a present, so I thought "meh, the guy's new, at least I'll have an offer in first, and if he gets a better one, no big deal.  That, or we can negotiate".
I had no idea what his knowledge of Atari rarity was, if he was willing to take the time to get informed, or if he just wanted to get rid of inventory.  If it was the latter case, an early bid can do wonders.

I believe I received a "no thank you", which was fine, but then later in the forums it was posted that he had a random offer for $80 that was insulting.
That was not my intention at all-- I just wanted to try to see if I could get a good deal for my friend that likes this game.

In my head, I thought that $150-ish was the asking price "amongst friends" at the time, even if ebay had higher numbers.
Perhaps I just didn't know what I was doing and was greedy.  If anyone thinks I messed up, then I'll just apologize out of the gate.  I was at the time looking to get a gift for a friend, not to potentially send someone into a frenzy where they would be less amicable to negotiations on another cartridge.

Anyhoo, I feel better now that that's said, and I want to ask-- who's going to Ohio?

-John

[Pioneer4x4]

Propane13, on Thu May 10, 2012 7:51 AM, said:

Anyhoo, I feel better now that that's said, and I want to ask-- who's going to Ohio?

-John

I am only 1hr from Ohio, but I honestly don't know what would "authenticate" a 1980s cart when so far it is the only one.  I feel that one could be made fairly easy.  If there is no documented history of gameplay and artwork & case style, I wouldn't know what to look for.   Unless if you open it up and find an inverter chip from 1999 in it...   As for your $80 offer, who cares if poeple think it was a lowball, it was an offer, if he accepted it, great, if not, no harm to anyone.

[Propane13]

What I would probably do for starters is:
- take some high-def pictures of the cart
- play the game; get a LOT more video
- build trust in 3 ways:
- show that we're not a bunch of jerks that want to give the ROM around and make him have nothing.  Instead, show that the perspective we're coming from is as "archaeologists" out to verify via our own "carbon dating" method if it is indeed authentic.  If it is, big win for him on price point.
- Get him to understand that only like 3 select people would access the ROM for validation, and show off maybe some of their other validations (Turbo, Extra Terrestrials)
- A demonstration of "ROM dumping" could be done on a few common carts to ease his mind that it's not harmful.

That's what I would do.

[Crazy Climber]

Until something happens with this I think this cat sums it up...

[Zach]

Crazy Climber, on Thu May 10, 2012 12:44 PM, said:

Until something happens with this I think this cat sums it up...

Yeah, there is not much to do except wait at this point. Meanwhile, Amazon is selling Dreamworks' The Prince of Egypt for under 7 dollars.

http://www.amazon.co...ASIN=B00000JGOQ

[Zwackery]

Propane13, on Thu May 10, 2012 7:51 AM, said:

Anyhoo, I feel better now that that's said, and I want to ask-- who's going to Ohio?

-John

There are plenty of AAers who live in Ohio.  Seriously, throw a Combat in any direction and you will hit a someone with an AA account.  We ceaselessly scour thrifts, pawns, video game stores, yard sales, dumpsters, craigslist, and on and on.  There are plenty of reputable members local enough to examine the cart.  The owner is just not interested.

Now, I did put my local librarian on the task of finding the ad - to verify what had been found as well as to get a higher quality scan - and she became quite interested in the whole story, so I gave her a condensed version and had a talk with her about any religious games that might be in her church's basement.  Sadly, no.  But if other copies might turn up, it might likely come through people networking via word of mouth and asking around.  Lots of funky stuff shows up in church yard sales.

[Pioneer4x4]

Zwackery, on Thu May 10, 2012 2:44 PM, said:

Propane13, on Thu May 10, 2012 7:51 AM, said:

Anyhoo, I feel better now that that's said, and I want to ask-- who's going to Ohio?

-John

There are plenty of AAers who live in Ohio. Seriously, throw a Combat in any direction and you will hit a someone with an AA account. We ceaselessly scour thrifts, pawns, video game stores, yard sales, dumpsters, craigslist, and on and on. There are plenty of reputable members local enough to examine the cart. The owner is just not interested.

Now, I did put my local librarian on the task of finding the ad - to verify what had been found as well as to get a higher quality scan - and she became quite interested in the whole story, so I gave her a condensed version and had a talk with her about any religious games that might be in her church's basement. Sadly, no. But if other copies might turn up, it might likely come through people networking via word of mouth and asking around. Lots of funky stuff shows up in church yard sales.

If anyone wants a higher quality scan, I have also held it in my hands, the Carnegie Library in PGH, PA has a copy. I may only be able to take a photo, but I should be able to get a good copy. The original picture is 1980s newspaper quality, not glossy magazine quality.

[Dino]

Zwackery, on Thu May 10, 2012 2:44 PM, said:

There are plenty of AAers who live in Ohio.  Seriously, throw a Combat in any direction and you will hit a someone with an AA account.  We ceaselessly scour thrifts, pawns, video game stores, yard sales, dumpsters, craigslist, and on and on.  There are plenty of reputable members local enough to examine the cart.  The owner is just not interested.

Therein lies the problem, and the reason why I still doubt the legitimacy of this cart. If it were legit, nagn would have had it examined.

[MattG/Snyper2099]

Propane13, on Thu May 10, 2012 7:51 AM, said:

Wow; that thread was 5 years ago.

So, a follow-up; did Albert ever ping Steve, as was recommended in that post?
Secondly, again-- does anyone live near that portion of Ohio, and want to try to go verify nagn's cart?

I have contacted this user as he lives 20 minutes from my house.  I have invited him to my house and offered to pay him for his time so we can play the game and all I heard was crickets chirping.