249 replies to this topic

[sack-c0s]

oky2000, on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:13 AM, said:

Also the C64 VIC-II/SID chipset was finished only 9 months (for the unreleased arcade motherboard project put on hold) after the first handful of 8kb A8 computers went on sale in December 79. Jack re-used the chipset to make the VIC-20s big brother.

I didn't think the difference in time between the chipset development and the C64/ultiMAX was that great. I thought the chipset was started in 1980?

[Bryan]

TMR, on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:55 AM, said:

i can see where this is going - DON'T DO IT!! =-)

Drat! No one's going to fall in my trap to get all the 64 guys banned!!

Also, remember that emkay beats up the guys doing A8 development too so everything's a potential target.

[José Pereira]

emkay, on Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:22 AM, said:

José Pereira, on Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:10 PM, said:

Just because this always run out of topic and just that Emkay feel important... and just this Thread is what something like I would like to see on A8 then I waste 12hours in study and PAINT *yes, its just PAINT but I can discuss with anyone (if anyone is interested...)>
BLINKY SCARY SCHOOL How it could look in A8>
blinky_A8 Map.PNG

This is 12hours or more with same BLINKY-s and the the guy& Phantom as Hardware sprite only, using another PRIOR n' and this time this is PRIOR2...
For Emkay you still have the same... almost the same but in GR.13...
GR.13 Char Mode that can be because the chars normally/always used on the game screens are about 45/50chars then each screen calls on the fly the chars that are needed for that screen...

It's gr.7 Mode D. Guess Why "so much" is happening on the screen. Which means, Blinky is not walking through the screen with some broom in the back ... it's "freely" jumping around. The "Enemies" get fluently animated and you have background animations... all in the stock machine.

Quote

Each screen have 2 maximum soft sprites moving horizontal or vertical and only, yes, only in some cames a third one like the Frog moving in all the 4 directions...
That gets we into just 1Charset for the Playing Area...

To Emkay:

There's no reason for Blinky use GR.7...
Even if I give you reason at scrolling games like Zybex then Blinky doesn't need it...

As I said about BLINKY's:
-> Static screen 40bytes wide
-> 2Enemys moving horizontal or vertical
-> only on some screens you have a third one moving all directions (the frog)
Or
-> 3Enemys moving all directions (less sized: the fish)
-> No Music and just fxs
-> No scrolling

And then you have (and even if I would believe in you, although I don't...) you have ZYBEX that has:
-> Scrolling screen 40bytes wide
-> If I remember right there was 6enemys more (sometimes...) large and many 'nº' of shootings
-> Enemys sometimes move in all directions



Then you simply count cycles and see that BLINKY's could have:
-> Using same GR.7 have more 4,5or6 same sized enemys (because there's no scrolling and to equal Zybex)
OR
-> GR.13/ANTIC5 same resolution but Char-mode enabling the fifth colour
-> Bitmap or Char-Mode but same resolution as the C64


CONCLUSION:
-> Zeppelin had a 'majour formula' that started with Zybex, continue with Draconus and ended with Blinky's.... it was just too easy to convert all this games into A8 using the GR.7, even if they had to do all the gfxs in 2x2...
-> Only thing I am 'missing':
"Would Zybex really needed to be GR:7?"
"Was the 4colours a prevention of the 5th colour clash because the Enemys go over the gfxs (and also on Draconus and Blinky's)?"


Maybe this doesn't seem 'On topic' but it really is... at least more then some comments/quoting/answers here.
And this is just because "what I would like to see on A8" is also about these old games if they could be better (I think we all agree they could have been...), possible future remakes or possible future game developments on A8.

[Mclaneinc]

TMR, on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:54 AM, said:

Masochism. =-)

This is the second time i've been asked this today... most of the time i try to play nice and bite my tongue (we're back to the masochism again...) but in this particular case the original question raised was around the "why isn't anyone turning up to do this on the A8" mark so me, as an "outsider" with all my evil Atari-hating works in tow, is in a pretty good position to comment.

But this thread has seen a few people fire up their IDEs and do some code so that's a Good Thing.

Yes, I've seen you in those hob nail boots stamping on Atari disks and carts while sticking pins in a Tramiel voodoo doll and sacrificing gerbils to your C64.

I always knew you were evil personified...

Lol...I'm just having thoughts of Emkay leading a very Python Spanish Inquisition which is wrong I know as no one ever expects it...

Edited by Mclaneinc, Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:24 AM.

[Bryan]

Mclaneinc, on Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:23 AM, said:

Lol...I'm just having thoughts of Emkay leading a very Python Spanish Inquisition which is wrong I know as no one ever expects it...

"Our chief weapon is criticism, criticism and derision- our TWO weapons are..."

[Philsan]

oky2000, on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:13 AM, said:

Also the C64 VIC-II/SID chipset was finished only 9 months (for the unreleased arcade motherboard project put on hold) after the first handful of 8kb A8 computers went on sale in December 79. Jack re-used the chipset to make the VIC-20s big brother.

I don't think A8 chipset was finished the day when Atari 400/800 were released so I believe it was finished more than 9 months before VIC-II/SID chipset.

Obviously it is a fact that A8 computers were released two and half years before C64.

[oky2000]

Philsan, on Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:04 PM, said:

oky2000, on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:13 AM, said:

Also the C64 VIC-II/SID chipset was finished only 9 months (for the unreleased arcade motherboard project put on hold) after the first handful of 8kb A8 computers went on sale in December 79. Jack re-used the chipset to make the VIC-20s big brother.

I don't think A8 chipset was finished the day when Atari 400/800 were released so I believe it was finished more than 9 months before VIC-II/SID chipset.

Obviously it is a fact that A8 computers were released two and half years before C64.

And obviously it is a fact the Commodore arcade motherboard unreleased project finished before the Commodore Max (4kb chicklet/membrane keyboard C64 essentially) design using the now unused VIC-2+SID designs was started in early 81 by engineer Yashi Terakura of Commodore Japan.

Unlike the A8 chipset which was a normal product development with chipset design up to final prototype and then further ongoing changes after launch like CTIA Vs GTIA 256 colour upgrade in 1980 the C64s core technology were two completed off the shelf custom chips from a scrapped arcade project 18 months before 1st C64 hardware sign off in late Dec 81/early Jan 82.

So no the gap is not 2.5 years technically, VIC-2 vs GTIA based A8 chipset are the same age in years pretty much and just different in their methods to achieve the same goals. I am talking about VIC-2 +SID NOT "C64 computer"

(only revision was disastrous change to SID via 8580 years later)

[ANTIQ]

shh

[sack-c0s]

forgot about the SID change.. in hindsight I'm bloody glad they left the VIC-II alone - Imagine if they either removed the quirks from it so it only worked as per the programmers reference guide, or altered the characteristics of them...

[ANTIQ]

The Pokey Chip Story

Design case history: the Commodore 64

[kenjennings]

oky2000, on Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:39 PM, said:

Philsan, on Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:04 PM, said:

oky2000, on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:13 AM, said:

Also the C64 VIC-II/SID chipset was finished only 9 months (for the unreleased arcade motherboard project put on hold) after the first handful of 8kb A8 computers went on sale in December 79. Jack re-used the chipset to make the VIC-20s big brother.

I don't think A8 chipset was finished the day when Atari 400/800 were released so I believe it was finished more than 9 months before VIC-II/SID chipset.

Obviously it is a fact that A8 computers were released two and half years before C64.

And obviously it is a fact the Commodore arcade motherboard unreleased project finished before the Commodore Max (4kb chicklet/membrane keyboard C64 essentially) design using the now unused VIC-2+SID designs was started in early 81 by engineer Yashi Terakura of Commodore Japan.

Unlike the A8 chipset which was a normal product development with chipset design up to final prototype and then further ongoing changes after launch like CTIA Vs GTIA 256 colour upgrade in 1980 the C64s core technology were two completed off the shelf custom chips from a scrapped arcade project 18 months before 1st C64 hardware sign off in late Dec 81/early Jan 82.

So no the gap is not 2.5 years technically, VIC-2 vs GTIA based A8 chipset are the same age in years pretty much and just different in their methods to achieve the same goals. I am talking about VIC-2 +SID NOT "C64 computer"

(only revision was disastrous change to SID via 8580 years later)

Apparently, an undisclosed feature of the Commodore 64 is time travel.   You'll be doing a lot of editing on the web to get all those other confused historians in line with your  "completed off the shelf custom chips from a scrapped arcade project 18 months before 1st C64 hardware sign off in late Dec 81/early Jan 82."

You should start with the four pages on Wikipedia for The Commodore 64, Commodore International, the VIC-II and SID.
http://en.wikipedia....e_International
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Commodore_64
http://en.wikipedia...._Technology_SID
http://en.wikipedia....chnology_VIC-II
Then work on these others:
http://www.commodore...ommodore_64.htm
http://www.mayhem64....k/c64design.htm

All these pages agree the chip design began in 1981.  In fact, for the SID design: "The SID was devised by engineer Robert "Bob" Yannes, who later co-founded the Ensoniq digital synthesizer company. Yannes headed a team that included himself, two technicians and a CAD operator, who designed and completed the chip in five months, in the latter half of 1981."

It's kind of hard for an arcade system implemented with an "unused VIC-2+SID designs" to exist more than a year before the SID design was even started.

Everything I read on the 2600 says when it was finished it the designers expected it to have a short lifespan and immediately began planning a successor.  Depending on where one can draw the line between paper napkin diagrams and official design specs that puts the start of the Ataris design at late 1977 to early 1978.   So, the C64 design  is at least 2.5 years (if not 3) years after the Ataris; an eternity in computing technology terms.  The only significant advancement that the C64 brought was in cheapness, with little interesting to show in  capability which is pretty sad considering that huge gap of time.

[sack-c0s]

I did read somewhere that Bob Yannes said that if he was given a couple more months the sound specs would've been on par with the SNES, but there's 2 caveats:

1) I can't remember where I read it, so it might not even be right
2) even if he did indeed say it there's no way of knowing if he'd have actually managed it

[andym00]

sack-c0s, on Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:31 AM, said:

I did read somewhere that Bob Yannes said that if he was given a couple more months the sound specs would've been on par with the SNES, but there's 2 caveats:

1) I can't remember where I read it, so it might not even be right
2) even if he did indeed say it there's no way of knowing if he'd have actually managed it

Not sure exactly if this is what you're referring too, but there's Mr.Sid's interview with him which I think refers to things they would have done differently had there been more time..
In particular is the fact the oscillators aren't multiplexed, so one possibility would have been more voices had that been the case..
edit: Or that freed space in the case of using multiplexed oscillators could used for oscillators tables as he mentions there wasn't enough room on the chip for wavetables..

[TMR]

i can has released my demo...! Available now from all good stockists and on Pouet (along with my previous A8 release from Forever last month that i forgot to add) for those who fancy downvoting the Atari hating scumbag. =-)

Edited by TMR, Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:10 AM.

[emkay]

Heaven/TQA, on Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:27 AM, said:

@emkay. ever spend some time to think why most get in trouble with you and f.e. not with me?

Because I DON'T kick their asses?
As you might remember José  "fucked" all ... now they like his doing.... even more than before,, even if nothing really changed there.

Some people seem to need that, instead of straight communications.
Isn't it interesting? Always the same people "feel involved" . Do they await to get fucked by someone? Sorry, not by me.
But they pump everytime the thread length trying to pull into strange directions.
And, have a look back in the thread. I (again) wasn't the starter ....

Edited by emkay, Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:15 AM.

[frogstar_robot]

TMR, on Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:10 AM, said:

i can has released my demo...! Available now from all good stockists and on Pouet (along with my previous A8 release from Forever last month that i forgot to add) for those who fancy downvoting the Atari hating scumbag. =-)

No downvote here.  Very nifty effect!

[Heaven/TQA]

TMR... eye cancer with all the damned rainbow colors...

[Tempest]

Please, can everyone just give it a rest for awhile?  If you're not happy with someone then walk away from the computer and go play a game or something, we don't really need to hear about it here.

Also, there will be no 'fucking' of anyone else here.  I'm pretty sure no one wants to see that.

[Stephen]

TMR, on Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:10 AM, said:

i can has released my demo...! Available now from all good stockists and on Pouet (along with my previous A8 release from Forever last month that i forgot to add) for those who fancy downvoting the Atari hating scumbag. =-)

Wish I had an Atari emulator on my work machine   I won't get to see this until I get home, and that will be very late since I have a job interview at 6PM

[potatohead]

Ditto.  

I like horizontal rainbows.

[NuY]

TMR, on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:54 AM, said:

Mclaneinc, on Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:54 AM, said:

TMR, I don't know why you bother to replay to Emkay, he's just a fountain of negativity..

Masochism. =-)

A sadistic masochist eh...I see your masochism and raise you a sadistic MC program with hundreds of numbers in data statements to type in, in RG100!

[NuY]

NuY, on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:53 PM, said:

TMR, on Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:54 AM, said:

Mclaneinc, on Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:54 AM, said:

TMR, I don't know why you bother to replay to Emkay, he's just a fountain of negativity..

Masochism. =-)

A sadistic masochist eh...I see your masochism and raise you a sadistic MC program with hundreds of numbers in data statements to type in, in RG100!

Speaking of which, any chance of a conversion to A8?

[sack-c0s]

emkay, on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:15 AM, said:

And, have a look back in the thread. I (again) wasn't the starter ....

Yes you were - with the cheap digs about 'brick sized pixels' back in post 21.

Edited by sack-c0s, Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:50 PM.

[TMR]

NuY, on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:55 PM, said:

NuY, on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:53 PM, said:

A sadistic masochist eh...I see your masochism and raise you a sadistic MC program with hundreds of numbers in data statements to type in, in RG100!

Speaking of which, any chance of a conversion to A8?

i'm away from doing games for a while, getting RG Rampage finished was a fun but stressful experience so i'm doing some demo-ish stuff for a bit. After that i really don't know, i reckon it's workable and the idea did cross my mind whilst writing the C64 code but i have Callisto on the A8 to finish first.

[Stephen]

Looks good in the emu.  I will have to hook up my PAL machine and try it out.  I might be bringing my 1084S back up from the basement too for some light pen fun.  Unfortunately, in PAL, I only get monochrome.

Thanks for the shoutout - it's my only mention in an Atari product for the 30 years I have owned them (minus what I sector edited in myself )