61 replies to this topic

[iswitt]

Crytek. See article:

http://www.gamepolit...ould-be-awesome

Any company that says stupid crap like that isn't getting anything from me. I may pirate Crysis 3 though; it'll probably be awesome.

[HammR25]

Crtyek is the only honest developer out there.

[godslabrat]

""From a business perspective that would be absolutely awesome," he told the publication. 'It's weird that [second-hand] is still allowed because it doesn't work like that in any other software industries, so it would be great if they could somehow fix that issue as well.'"

Yeah, it's weird that it doesn't work like that in other software industries, and it's even weirder that ANY software industry works like that in the first place!  Software gets this weird protection (which is not absolute) from secondhand sales, but nearly every other product out there is freely sold as used.  I'm not sure why software gets to be so special, but since it is, it should be recognized as an exception... And if that means used sales are "weird", then it's just a matter of software trends following basic economics.

Also: what a douchebag.

[MagitekAngel]

What a dick.

[Emehr]

Pop quiz time!

Watching the game industry self-destruct is:
A) Fun
B) Sad
C) Both of the above

[BillyHW]

May the 99 cent iPhone game destroy them.

[xg4bx]

they will just never get it. the pirates win again, as well as increasing the number of folks engaging in it.

stop f*cking punishing law abiding, legitimate customers engaging in legitimate capitalism by buying secondhand goods.

i'm tapping out after this gen. the fact that such things are even being discussed doesn't bode well for the hobby going forward..

Edited by xg4bx, Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:23 PM.

[Hyper_Eye]

How is Gamefly going to work with this model?

[Rex Dart]

xg4bx, on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:22 PM, said:

they will just never get it. the pirates win again, as well as increasing the number of folks engaging in it.

stop f*cking punishing law abiding, legitimate customers engaging in legitimate capitalism by buying secondhand goods.

i'm tapping out after this gen. the fact that such things are even being discussed doesn't bode well for the hobby going forward..

If "tapping out" means pirating the games, then ahoy & avast me hearty.

[godslabrat]

Hyper_Eye, on Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:31 PM, said:

How is Gamefly going to work with this model?

If the publishers don't care about us customers, who actually pay them money for the games they design... what makes you think they care about GameFly? I'm sure game rentals are just as evil as used game sales in their world.

[16-bit]

As sad as the whole situation is, I can see the point of view of the developers. Gamestop and the like of stores are doing a lot of damage to the game industry IMO. You buy a game for $60 and a week later you're lucky if you get maybe $20 for it, then they turn around and sell it for $50. Multiply that by the thousands of copies they sell of each game and Gamestop is pulling in money hand over fist. After the initial sale to the retail store, the developers aren't seeing a dime of that money.

Then what does the consumer do? Pay an outrageous price for a used game, or pirate it. Either way the developer loses. Not to say that it doesn't suck for us a video game fans, we get stuck in the middle picking the lesser of two evils. Either way the developers lose, and we end up losing in the long or short run.

This is all going to come to a head at some point and I don't think it will be pretty.

[godslabrat]

16-bit, on Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:29 PM, said:

As sad as the whole situation is, I can see the point of view of the developers. Gamestop and the like of stores are doing a lot of damage to the game industry IMO. You buy a game for $60 and a week later you're lucky if you get maybe $20 for it, then they turn around and sell it for $50. Multiply that by the thousands of copies they sell of each game and Gamestop is pulling in money hand over fist. After the initial sale to the retail store, the developers aren't seeing a dime of that money.

Then what does the consumer do? Pay an outrageous price for a used game, or pirate it. Either way the developer loses. Not to say that it doesn't suck for us a video game fans, we get stuck in the middle picking the lesser of two evils. Either way the developers lose, and we end up losing in the long or short run.

I'm not seeing a problem here.  Every other industry that produces nonperishable goods deals in used sales: Cars.  Houses.  Bandsaws.  Clothing.  Books.  Appliances.  Music.  Computers.  Sporting goods.  Every last one of these manufacturers understands that there will be a used market for their products, and they won't see any of that profit.  Somehow, they all manage to get by without some sort of industry-wide crisis.  Video games are "different" somehow?  We need to make sure the developers get a cut out of every transaction that takes place?  Why?  No one else gets that.  (Well, okay, the IRS does...)

Second, there are places to buy used games other than Gamestop.  At these places, the sellers will usually get better returns, and the buyers will have a much better overall discount.  Amazon, eBay, Craigslist, even Best Buy is getting in on the act.  There's no reason to hold them in contempt for this.  They aren't the only game in town, nor are they doing ANYTHING that hasn't been done since way before video games were invented.

The developer's problems, which they continue to keep quiet about in the face of all their histrionics, are their gigantic budgets and shorter product life cycles.  They've pushed themselves to create very expensive games that only sell for a very short period of time, and in order to maintain that business model, they need to guarantee that every single title they make will sell a maximum number of copies and for a premium price.  It's to the point now where every release needs to be a mega hit or it's considered a complete failure, and literally could ruin the company.  This is a strategy that WILL end in disaster.

I'm sorry, I don't see the developer's point AT ALL.

[BillyHW]

16-bit, on Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:29 PM, said:

As sad as the whole situation is, I can see the point of view of the developers. Gamestop and the like of stores are doing a lot of damage to the game industry IMO. You buy a game for $60 and a week later you're lucky if you get maybe $20 for it, then they turn around and sell it for $50. Multiply that by the thousands of copies they sell of each game and Gamestop is pulling in money hand over fist. After the initial sale to the retail store, the developers aren't seeing a dime of that money.

Then what does the consumer do? Pay an outrageous price for a used game, or pirate it. Either way the developer loses. Not to say that it doesn't suck for us a video game fans, we get stuck in the middle picking the lesser of two evils. Either way the developers lose, and we end up losing in the long or short run.

This is all going to come to a head at some point and I don't think it will be pretty.

But the amount the developer is getting now for the games includes the resale value.  A game that can't be resold has less value than a game that can, so the original developer will have to charge less for a game with limited uses.  So they actually are getting a piece of used games sales indirectly.

[save2600]

Yep, never did like Krychek!    

[xg4bx]

Rex Dart, on Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:39 PM, said:

xg4bx, on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:22 PM, said:

they will just never get it. the pirates win again, as well as increasing the number of folks engaging in it.

stop f*cking punishing law abiding, legitimate customers engaging in legitimate capitalism by buying secondhand goods.

i'm tapping out after this gen. the fact that such things are even being discussed doesn't bode well for the hobby going forward..

If "tapping out" means pirating the games, then ahoy & avast me hearty.

nope, that still involves buying a console lol. screw 'em. i needn't waste my time on anything they have to offer even if its free. theres still a whole range of everything from ps2 games to 360/ps3/wii titles to occupy my time going forward. maybe i'll get a handheld at the most.

[xg4bx]

16-bit, on Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:29 PM, said:

As sad as the whole situation is, I can see the point of view of the developers. Gamestop and the like of stores are doing a lot of damage to the game industry IMO. You buy a game for $60 and a week later you're lucky if you get maybe $20 for it, then they turn around and sell it for $50. Multiply that by the thousands of copies they sell of each game and Gamestop is pulling in money hand over fist. After the initial sale to the retail store, the developers aren't seeing a dime of that money.

in all fairness, i don't think gamestop is seeing much of the money either. how many hundreds/thousands of games do they have sitting on their shelves, never to be sold? and thats just in one store. they have faaaaaar more stock than they will ever sell. i've worked at gamestop, a miniscule amount of used games left the store. more often than not people were trading in towards new titles. i think the amount of 'damage' gamestop is doing to the industry is overblown, at least from my experience. used stuff doesn't sell as well as you'd think.

Edited by xg4bx, Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:35 AM.

[Random Terrain]

I like this comment:

Quote

Submitted by Hevach on Thu, 04/26/2012 - 09:19.

"if we can convert 25 percent of those gamers into paying customers"

What about the new sales you'd loose?

Developers are forgetting something very serious here. Most people aren't maintaining vast libraries of games anymore. They're selling games back as they buy new ones, sometimes keeping a favorite or two around, often just until the sequel.

The future resale price is part of the purchase decision - the old game you're trading in is part of the purchase price. Games aren't just being bought outright anymore, most of them are really open-ended rentals. $60 is a lot easier to justify when you can get $30 of it back if you finish it before it drops from launch price.

Goodbye modern gaming.

[Arkhan]

That is really stupid.  He's missed the last 30 years of gaming apparently.  Used gaming was the best part of gaming when I was growing up.  Square Soft didn't tank because tons of us bought FFVII used on PS1.   Nintendo didn't die because I got every mario game used for NES when I was like 3.

The second hand market doesn't hurt developers as much as you'd think.  Game stores restock the new stuff when it sells, since some people just want new games.  If the game doesn't sell well enough in the first release wave, the developer is probably screwed anyways because the game isn't very good and isn't selling.  If it's a good game, the initial sales wave will do it's job.

If second hand gaming was a bad thing, gaming would already be dead.

Next people are going to want to block movie rentals because it can hurt the actors/movie producers.   The time it shows in theatres?  Yeah, that's the first release wave of a video game.  Same concept.

and what do you do when you want to show your friend a game?  Pack your console up and drag it over to their house?  That seems idiotic.

[Emehr]

godslabrat, on Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:01 PM, said:

The developer's problems, which they continue to keep quiet about in the face of all their histrionics, are their gigantic budgets and shorter product life cycles.  They've pushed themselves to create very expensive games that only sell for a very short period of time, and in order to maintain that business model, they need to guarantee that every single title they make will sell a maximum number of copies and for a premium price.  It's to the point now where every release needs to be a mega hit or it's considered a complete failure, and literally could ruin the company.  This is a strategy that WILL end in disaster.

This. A thousand times this. Long gone are the days of one programmer doing all the work on one game for consoles (they moved to the mobile market, which is doing just fine). I've said it before, video game titles have movie-like budgets without the movie-like audience. Even though video gaming has become more widely accepted since the 80s there still isn't the market to sustain the ridiculous amounts of money going into development. Who's to blame though? Gamers expect better graphics every generation so the console-makers build more advanced systems and it takes bigger teams to put together bigger and "better" games. It's spun out of control and the publishers are trying to point their collective finger at the easiest target they can.

Meanwhile, the mobile market is reflecting a time that harkens back to the late-70s, early-80s when small groups can put out successful games. And this will last until mobile hardware gets faster and we start seeing more PS1/N64-style games and the cycle will repeat itself. Only this time, nobody will be able to blame used games because there won't be any.

[16-bit]

godslabrat, on Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:01 PM, said:

16-bit, on Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:29 PM, said:

As sad as the whole situation is, I can see the point of view of the developers. Gamestop and the like of stores are doing a lot of damage to the game industry IMO. You buy a game for $60 and a week later you're lucky if you get maybe $20 for it, then they turn around and sell it for $50. Multiply that by the thousands of copies they sell of each game and Gamestop is pulling in money hand over fist. After the initial sale to the retail store, the developers aren't seeing a dime of that money.

Then what does the consumer do? Pay an outrageous price for a used game, or pirate it. Either way the developer loses. Not to say that it doesn't suck for us a video game fans, we get stuck in the middle picking the lesser of two evils. Either way the developers lose, and we end up losing in the long or short run.

I'm not seeing a problem here.  Every other industry that produces nonperishable goods deals in used sales: Cars.  Houses.  Bandsaws.  Clothing.  Books.  Appliances.  Music.  Computers.  Sporting goods.  Every last one of these manufacturers understands that there will be a used market for their products, and they won't see any of that profit.  Somehow, they all manage to get by without some sort of industry-wide crisis.  Video games are "different" somehow?  We need to make sure the developers get a cut out of every transaction that takes place?  Why?  No one else gets that.  (Well, okay, the IRS does...)

Second, there are places to buy used games other than Gamestop.  At these places, the sellers will usually get better returns, and the buyers will have a much better overall discount.  Amazon, eBay, Craigslist, even Best Buy is getting in on the act.  There's no reason to hold them in contempt for this.  They aren't the only game in town, nor are they doing ANYTHING that hasn't been done since way before video games were invented.

The developer's problems, which they continue to keep quiet about in the face of all their histrionics, are their gigantic budgets and shorter product life cycles.  They've pushed themselves to create very expensive games that only sell for a very short period of time, and in order to maintain that business model, they need to guarantee that every single title they make will sell a maximum number of copies and for a premium price.  It's to the point now where every release needs to be a mega hit or it's considered a complete failure, and literally could ruin the company.  This is a strategy that WILL end in disaster.

I'm sorry, I don't see the developer's point AT ALL.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a used game market. There absolutely should be, but there needs to be a more fair market on games. You can buy a car, and yes it loses value once you drive it off the lot but you can still sell it for what it's worth later on. I think my orignal post was more in anger towards Gamestop than on the actual issue with developers my bad. I just feel that part of the problem with the whole modern industry is their fault. Of course like you say, people can buy from eBay, CL, etc, but I think the average person doesn't know any better.

[Rex Dart]

Emehr, on Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:00 AM, said:

godslabrat, on Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:01 PM, said:

The developer's problems, which they continue to keep quiet about in the face of all their histrionics, are their gigantic budgets and shorter product life cycles.  They've pushed themselves to create very expensive games that only sell for a very short period of time, and in order to maintain that business model, they need to guarantee that every single title they make will sell a maximum number of copies and for a premium price.  It's to the point now where every release needs to be a mega hit or it's considered a complete failure, and literally could ruin the company.  This is a strategy that WILL end in disaster.

Long gone are the days of one programmer doing all the work on one game for consoles (they moved to the mobile market, which is doing just fine). I've said it before, video game titles have movie-like budgets without the movie-like audience. Even though video gaming has become more widely accepted since the 80s there still isn't the market to sustain the ridiculous amounts of money going into development. Who's to blame though? Gamers expect better graphics every generation so the console-makers build more advanced systems and it takes bigger teams to put together bigger and "better" games. It's spun out of control and the publishers are trying to point their collective finger at the easiest target they can.

Meanwhile, the mobile market is reflecting a time that harkens back to the late-70s, early-80s when small groups can put out successful games. And this will last until mobile hardware gets faster and we start seeing more PS1/N64-style games and the cycle will repeat itself. Only this time, nobody will be able to blame used games because there won't be any.

Actually, there are some teriffic Xbox Live Indie Games.  I'm not arguing with you, I'm just saying that they've actually made a small comeback on consoles and I think it's great.

[godslabrat]

16-bit, on Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:08 AM, said:

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a used game market. There absolutely should be, but there needs to be a more fair market on games. You can buy a car, and yes it loses value once you drive it off the lot but you can still sell it for what it's worth later on. I think my orignal post was more in anger towards Gamestop than on the actual issue with developers my bad. I just feel that part of the problem with the whole modern industry is their fault. Of course like you say, people can buy from eBay, CL, etc, but I think the average person doesn't know any better.

Oh, I'm with you there.  Gamestop is not my favorite company by any means and I strongly object to their pricing structure.  I'm more than happy to call them out on how they generally don't offer a good deal, but the industry as a whole is trying to say that they shouldn't exist at all.  That's crap.

[cimerians]

All I know is this:

Big publsihers and devs better get their shit straight because other than a few 60 dollar 'retail' games like Skyrim I have been having waaaaaay more fun playing cheaper INDIE games on the PC, 360 and the Kindle Fire. (I don't have an IPAD).

Ladies and Gentlemen, there is a split in worlds going on here. On one side are 60 dollar retail games (most of which IMO are not worth that much money) and on the other side are Indie's, which reminds me a lot about gaming in the mid-80'.s and a little bit of the early NES era.

I love whats going on in Steam, GOG, 360 indie's and the IOS/Droid platforms. Affordable and it seems...a lot better.

Go Kickstarter!

Edited by cimerians, Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:31 PM.

[Austin]

Hey Crytek--I only paid $13 for Crysis and both its expansion packs on Steam nearly three years ago, when you were probably expecting much more for it. Suck it!

[godslabrat]

Hey Crytek-- Last time I cared about Crysis at all was when I heard that you needed HAL 9000 to run the damn thing, and I said "Screw that, I'll just buy an Xbox."