Am I an "emulator sellout?"

[monzamess]

Ok, I just made that term up, but here's my story...

 

Like almost everyone else here, I really liked computers and video

games as a kid. I got an Atari 2600 and Timex Sinclair 1000 in 1982.

Since I was a kid with no income, I had a handful of games that I

got as presents, but that was it. I bought video game magazines and

drooled over the cool stuff, but never got it. I was especially

fascinated with how the same game was converted to different

systems. But, I eventually I found other hobbies.

 

One day at a flea market, looking for something else, I noticed

Atari cartridges went for about $1 - $2 each. I started buying a few

that I wanted as a kid, and of course, it snowballed from there.

 

[side note: One day at a flea market outside of Atlanta I bought

an Atari set with an unlabeled cartridge. Got home and found out

it was Coke Wins! Actually I didn't know it at the time--I thought

it was a homebrew game--but later found out the whole story many

years later.]

 

By the mid-90s I had one of almost every system (computer and

console) released in the US and lots of games for them, mostly

bought very cheap at flea markets, Goodwill, etc. My dad and I

stopped at every Big Lots we found on a 300 mile trip to collect

almost all the 7800 games (even though I still didn't have a system

at that time). I participated in the rec.games.video newsgroup and

joined RGVC as soon as it was created, buying and selling lots

of things through tedious usenet auctions. I finally got to play

the VIC-20 versions of Pac-Man and Ms. Pac-Man (I don't know

why I was so obsessed with them, but I was...) and so on.

 

I built a special TV stand with slide-out trays for each system and

bunch of switchboxes. I could play any system with the flip of

a switch. It was neat, but I still lamented all the

cables running everywhere, the lack of a good place to store the

controllers, etc. Plus there was the cartridge storage to deal with.

 

I wished I had one magic box that would use the same controller and

had all the games built in. You know where I'm going here.

 

I started finding emulators on the net, collecting ROMs, and

saved up enough to upgrade my crap PC to a better one.

I could play the games I knew I'd never find.

 

So the first round of my stuff got sold, around 1996: the computers

and the pre-2600 consoles. I called it the "Poor Graduate Student"

auction. I kept the rest of the stuff, but packed it up and carted it around

for a couple of moves.

 

I kept finding ROMs, new emulators, and upgrading my computer.

Pretty soon, I had a "virtual" version of my collection, and then some,

and even built a reprogrammable arcade control setup.

 

Last year, after seeing my collection sit in plastic boxes for the last 5

years, and took it out, tested it, and started selling it. I started with

the non-Atari systems, thinking I'd just keep the Atari ones, which

were my favorites. A few months later, and the Atari stuff is going too,

except my 2600 collection, which I'm keeping more out of sentimental

value than anything else.

 

I even have the PC hooked up to a TV so it almost looks like

the real thing--but a bit cleaner. Maybe even sterile.

 

I'm pretty cool with it, since as I said at the beginning, more than

anything I just wanted to experience some games ported to various

platforms. I think I have 20 versions of Pac-Man alone. However, the

one thing that bugs me (a little bit) now is that I justified downloading

the ROMs since I actually owned a whole bunch of the originals, which

is no longer true.

 

So is the path of an "emulator sellout?"

 

Just my long-winded thought for today...

[joeybastard]

Emulation is the only way I'll ever get to play some games ie. Coke Wins so I'm cool with it. I think as long as your not downloading or making copies of currently available titles it's OK. I doubt anybody at Parker Bros notices if I download Spider-Man for the 2600.

[Nukey Shay]

I look at it this way...you were jaded with collecting, to the point of boxing everything up and storing it away. So yeah, it's probably better that they found other homes (perhaps ones with younger generations to carry on the torch). Since you are content playing the games rather than actually owning them, you shouldn't criticize yourself. People who buy things that they intend to sit on a shelf, barely seeing the light of day...that's what bugs me.

 

The same class that I fall into...

now I just need a decent computer.

[NE146]

Nah it's all good. I have every single rom for pretty much every system I could find on the net. And I have lots and lots of originals (although I'm far from a "completist" collector). It's all just videogames man. And you takes what you can gets.

 

But I will say that a lot of times emulators DO fall a bit short (sometimes a LOT short) of the real thing in many ways. But just as long as you know it, and are aware of it, who cares. Personally though, I wouldn't have gotten rid of my original stuff. But oh well.

 

Again, it's all good

[Gabriel]

For me, it has been the exact opposite.

 

I discovered emulators when I recently went back to college. I was amazed, and still am, by them. It's awesome what these people do and the knowledge of these things that they have. And, of course, I highly enjoyed playing all the games I missed as a child.

 

Playing Star Raiders on VSS made something painfully clear to me, though. Sometimes the emulated version just doesn't scratch the itch. Sometimes it's the control. Sometimes it's the inaccuracies of the emulation. Sometimes it's just that the emulator runs like shit on your computer.

 

When I moved out of the hellhole I lived in while I was going back to school, I discarded the only really old game system I had kept, my Atari 2600. I gave it to my landlady's kids along with several games (including an uncommon Star Trek). I did this because I figured emulation would take care of all my classic gaming itches.

 

And that was the absolute wrong decision for me personally to make.

 

Recently, I've started getting into the retrogaming console scene. I've reacquired a 5200 (a long missed console from my childhood) and I've glommed onto a 7800 (something that I had long wanted). Nowadays, I only use emulators to check out games that I'm thinking of purchasing (or for playing arcade games on MAME). And, to tell the truth, I play my 7800 and 5200 more than my PS2, Gamecube, and XBox.

 

And no, I'm not raggin' on ya because you're becoming an "emulator sellout." As someone has already said, "It's all good." I'm just giving a different POV.

[NE146]

I said it's all good. But I also said that emulators DO fall short of the real thing in many ways. And they sure as heck do. And I said I'd never get rid of my originals.

 

But in the end, it's all videogames. Emu's fall short, but just be aware of it.

[Big Player]

Emulation is the only way I'll ever get to play some games ie. Coke Wins so I'm cool with it.  I think as long as your not downloading or making copies of currently available titles it's OK.  I doubt anybody at Parker Bros notices if I download Spider-Man for the 2600.

 

There is another way to play the games. With the Cuttle Cart or Cupcakus' upcoming flash cart, you can play any ROM on an actual 2600.

 

When the Cuttle Cart came out, I didn't buy it because I didn't see the point of it. I had so many emulators to choose from, so I thought it was just a gimmick to be able to load ROMS on a real machine. Something interesting, but nothing I really needed.

 

I had really got back into collecting for the 2600 to get all the Activision games I had wanted as a kid. It didn't take too long to get them, so there wasn't a need to get any more. But as I started hanging out on the message board here, I realize there are some great games for the 2600 I had never heard of (and I did read Electronic Games magazine as kid.)

 

I use the emulators now as a try-before-you-buy and am still surprised at the differences between them and a real system. I realize that perfect emulation is impossible.

 

Some of the good games are hard to find and all I really care about is playing the games--so I can't wait for the flash cart. Once I get one, I'm sure I'll use the emulators much less.

[raindog]

Around January 1997 I decided I needed to do my every-few-years search to see if Mappy had ever been released for any systems (I imported the Game Gear version which I think is the best version of Mappy due to its "arrangement" version, but I still had an itch to play the original.) I searched for Mappy and discovered MAME, and from there Atari emulation, and then kinda went nuts.

 

I have no problems with emulation itself; the physical differences can be addressed with a little bit of money and effort. I bought a HotRod SE and think it's great, but now I've discovered that I kinda prefer playing arcade games standing up. I certainly don't have the space for an arcade cabinet in my apartment (which broke my heart when someone 15 miles from here was selling a Mappy cabinet on ebay last month) so now I'm thinking take one of my old PC's and an LCD monitor and mount it somewhere in my apartment so I have sort of an "invisible arcade cabinet." I'm partaking of the current flood in alt.binaries.emulators.mame and have pretty complete sets for the 2600, INTV, Colecovision and other systems.

 

But one weird thing is, after doing my little hacks and demos for the 2600 a couple years ago I really yearned to see them on the real hardware, and the Cuttle Cart was just the first step. (Actually the second step, since I bought a copy of my own ABPM from Hozer and someone else was nice enough to make carts of my other stuff for me at no charge.) Now I have a box in my living room with my 2600 (given to me by a friend when she heard I was doing 2600 coding), about 24 cartridges, and another box with half a dozen joysticks (some from my C64 and Amiga days), driving controllers, keypads and a Star Raiders touch pad. (And a pair of paddles I got on ebay that have a little rattle and a LOT of jitter to them... can't play the Marble Craze I just bought.... caveat ebayer, I guess.) I have found that recent versions of Stella look and play great in a window or fullscreen mode under Linux so I don't really NEED the 2600 per se.... but I keep going back to it.

 

I don't know what the gist of this really is so I'll make one up: Emulation is great. I'm probably more comfortable with controlling games using a PC keyboard than an Atari joystick or Nintendo gamepad these days, all things considered. But sometimes you need the real thing, and it's out there and at the moment it's really not that expensive if you're careful. So there's no need to feel guilty either way.

 

Rob

[JagMX]

Emulation is great, gives certain people a chance tosee what gaming was back then, and show them it wasnt all about graphix and full motion video. Plus is gives me a chance to play what i couldnt find/afford at the time.

[LDA#$AF]

My experience is very similar.

 

As a kid, all my friends had Atari 2600's and I'd get an occaisional

chance to play, but I never had my own system. I finally bought an

Atari 800 in 1982.

 

Now that I have a few dollars in my pocket I am collecting what

I would consider a reasonable collection for myself, but it takes up

space and I've ended buying more than I really need.

 

So I've tried to limit myself to two boxes of Atari 800 items and two

boxes of Atari 2600 items.

 

My next step is to get an emulator on my PC and pocket PC so that those boxes can be put away. But I'm going to keep an Atari 800 and a 2600 because every once in a while, I'd like to pull out the original.

 

There is a point though, where in reclaiming some of my lost childhood, I have reclaimed it and no longer need to focus on it quite as much. And that's the beauty of having collected them - I've experienced much of what I was looking for and I've taken care of that 'itch.'

 

I'm not going to worry about owning the carts either - unless, like someone else posted, the copyright owner is still selling the license.

 

I doubt that any software author would be offended that people are using their software 20 years later - unless they're still trying to sell it. I would think that most of them are quite happy about it. And the corporations obviously see this as a market too small to serve.

[jetset]

Nothing at all wrong with emulation! In reality, using an emulator is hardly different than those of us who brag "gee, I walked into a thrift shop yesterday and paid 65 cents for a box with 56 carts in it! wow, what a deal".

The original programmers get zero money either way. If there were enough of a market for it, they would keep up with the copyright(s), and ensure nobody could use their product without a cut.

If anyone ever gives you crap about using an emulator just ask them if they've ever copied a music cd or downloaded songs off the net, or taped a show or movie from television and fast fowarded through the commercials when they played it back, or used a shareware program without registering it. Chances are they have, or thier BS'ing you when they say they haven't!

Emulation kicks!!!

[Vic George 2K3]

I personally think emulation is great, though not entirely perfect. It does lack the physicality of having the actual game system and cartridges playing on an actual TV, but then in cases like playing emulated Intellivision or Atari 5200 games, you don't have to deal with controllers that just aren't suited for action-type gaming. (I'm still waiting, though, for the Intellivision emulator upgrade that would let me play Tron Deadly Discs by using the two sticks on my Playstation 2 controller to control both his movements and firing, like Robotron 2084.)

 

Then again, with the art of retrofitting PCs into ancient game console shells like the folks at Retrodesign were doing, you can have the Atari 2600 that others could only dream of having it do...playing Atari 2600 games in addition to games of other systems (through emulation, of course!).

[2600Lives]

Hell will likely freeze over before I'll sell even one single piece of my beloved collection, especially my beloved Vectrex which I bought off a guy who thought it was a low end computer monitor (and for 5 bucks, no less!!!). To me, it's what I could not have as a kid. I look at that massive stack of 2600 games (and the many, many games for other systems) and say "Screw you, world! I got what I wanted!". Sad as that may seem. The emulation for me is more like completism. I can say, "Well, I don't have it in cart form, but I do have a rom of it" since some of these games are next to impossible to find a cart of. I'm a regular at all the thrift stores around me (althought it seems that within the last year ALL their games have dried up. I haven't found a single game for sale in that time.), buying all the old computer crap I can (I have 18 working Commodore 64s and 12 working Vic 20s). It's about fun and nostalgia for me, and as long as I'm having fun and reliving my childhood, I'll keep collecting.

[hurt]

Hell will likely freeze over before I'll sell even one single piece of my beloved collection, especially my beloved Vectrex which I bought off a guy who thought it was a low end computer monitor (and for 5 bucks, no less!!!). To me, it's what I could not have as a kid. I look at that massive stack of 2600 games (and the many, many games for other systems) and say "Screw you, world! I got what I wanted!". Sad as that may seem. The emulation for me is more like completism. I can say, "Well, I don't have it in cart form, but I do have a rom of it" since some of these games are next to impossible to find a cart of. I'm a regular at all the thrift stores around me (althought it seems that within the last year ALL their games have dried up. I haven't found a single game for sale in that time.), buying all the old computer crap I can (I have 18 working Commodore 64s and 12 working Vic 20s). It's about fun and nostalgia for me, and as long as I'm having fun and reliving my childhood, I'll keep collecting.

 

that was truly a great way to put it.

[Keatah]

Ok, I just made that term up, but here's my story...

 

..Like almost everyone else here, I really liked computers and video games as a kid.

 

..By the mid-90s I had one of almost every system (computer and console) released in the US and lots of games for them, mostly bought very cheap at flea markets, Goodwill, etc.

 

..I built a special TV stand with slide-out trays for each system and bunch of switchboxes. I could play any system with the flip of a switch. It was neat, but I still lamented all the cables running everywhere, the lack of a good place to store the controllers, etc. Plus there was the cartridge storage to deal with.

 

..I wished I had one magic box that would use the same controller and had all the games built in. You know where I'm going here.

 

 

My story is similar. And I'm kind of glad, now, that I lightened up on the videogame and computer collecting. For if I were to have put 100% full-on effort into the games and system collecting I'd have to give up 3 or 4 "car's worth" of real physical space. And the funds to afford those rides. My Apple II collection already consumes nearly 1-2 garages of space as it is!!

 

It was/is the magic box aspect that emulation makes possible. Emulation brings a certain (if funky) homogeneity to ALL of my games. They can all live together on the same storage medium, and they can all run together on the same CPU, with the same on-board cache, and same processing elements, not to mention the same video chip and ram. All the games can live together like one big happy family. And even at times, with the complexity and richness of the bit patterns of the freshly de-duped and organized rom dumps, I can almost imagine the magnetic etchings are the baseplate for some kind of artificial intelligence. An AI that is developed and revealed and brought forth by the chip-emulation algorithms. I know, you're starting to give me that look!

 

But the ability to bring all my stuff with me in a briefcase or lappy sack is just how I imagined it years and years ago while stuffing my fat-ass face in McDonalds and playing with my 200-in-one electronic project kits. ha! Yep, I've told the story before, I'll tell it again. One day, in McDonalds I was there after school (had to have been still in primary school), and some IBM engineers my dad knew were also there. I kinda got around to asking them what the practicality of having a small box, about the size of a C64 or Apple II or something, ..of having a small box that could play ALL of my videogames. I rattled off the list starting with the VCS and named 10 systems.

 

They just about laughed me out of the "restaurant", citing such things power density, custom chips, bus contentions. Some argued it would be best to disassemble all the systems, get their boards, re-engineer them to the smallest size possible, and put them in a box while maintaining all the switches and slots and connectors. One of them roared it's "NOT POSSIBLE!" A pipedream. Seeing that this was getting out of hand I mentioned the arcade cabinets and the requirement to have to store all the roms in the device itself - to further fire up the antics already going.

 

So as you can see, emulation, today, is an awesome thing! It has advanced wonderfully in areas of compatibility and playability. Display and sound fidelity have also improved.

 

 

I look at it this way...you were jaded with collecting, to the point of boxing everything up and storing it away. So yeah, it's probably better that they found other homes (perhaps ones with younger generations to carry on the torch). Since you are content playing the games rather than actually owning them, you shouldn't criticize yourself. People who buy things that they intend to sit on a shelf, barely seeing the light of day...that's what bugs me.

 

The same class that I fall into...

now I just need a decent computer.

 

Keeping classic computers from seeing the "light of day" is a great way to prevent yellowing and fading.

 

On a sad note, I'm not sure how many youngsters are wanting to carry the torch of classic gaming. Smartphones and tablets with DLC are taking the center stage.

[israelg]

My story is very similar to the stories written here...

 

I have also have my PC hooked to a CRT TV and this is enough for me...

 

But now most of the time I am usually playing on my android tablet that can handle now most of the PC emulators...

 

And I will NEVER sell my humble Atari 2600 collection !!!

[+LS650]

Q) Am I an "emulator sellout?"

 

If someone says 'Yes' are you going to be offended? I've noticed lately that some folks get very defensive when talking about preferring emulation over real hardware.

 

Meh, I don't care. Emulation certainly has its place. If it weren't for emulation I wouldn't know what an AdventureVision is like for gaming (not as great as some folks make it out to be) or I wouldn't have been able to try out the never-released Bound High for the Virtual Boy. If a new homebrew comes out, I try it out on emulation if possible to see if it is worth loading onto a Flash cart or ordering from the seller.

 

On the other hand, I think there is a noticeable gap between emulation and "the real thing". Do you remember those old TV commercials for butter, featuring Vincent Price. He'd sneer about the subtle taste differences between margarine and butter, and then end with "I can tell the difference. Can't you?"

 

Yeah, I can tell the difference between butter and margarine, between Coke and no-name cola, and between emulation and real hardware. If I have to, I'll take the 'imitation' but the real hardware is definitely preferable.

[akator]

Talk about necro threads

 

Emulation is amazing and for many systems I prefer it over the "real thing." For example, as much as I love old Macs, I do not love replacing caps, fighting with SCSI and old hard drives, and the struggle of getting disk and software images transferred. I enjoy emulating these systems much more than trying to maintain and use the old hardware. I still love the hardware, I would just rather spend my time enjoying the systems virtually than with the realities of hardware ownership.

 

On the flip side, there are systems that I greatly prefer using original hardware. These are the ones I keep even though emulation is very good. The Vectrex is the perfect example of a console that I must own because I enjoy using it on a regular basis even though emulation is excellent.

 

I also keep a fair number of electronic games because they must be experienced in all of their original glory (or not).

 

The Dreamcast, A8, and VIC-20 are also systems I prefer hardware for, even though the differences between those and emulation are less clearly defined than the previous examples.

 

The several other systems in our household get emulated far more often than the hardware gets used. They are especially nice played via Android emulators or the PSP.

 

I don't mind being an "emulator sellout"

[dsmall]

Hmmmmm. Interesting thread.

 

I guess I really should give this "emulator" thing a try. Sounds cool.

 

 

Thanks,

 

David Small

[Flojomojo]

Talk about necro threads

 

Emulation is amazing and for many systems I prefer it over the "real thing." For example, as much as I love old Macs, I do not love replacing caps, fighting with SCSI and old hard drives, and the struggle of getting disk and software images transferred. I enjoy emulating these systems much more than trying to maintain and use the old hardware. I still love the hardware, I would just rather spend my time enjoying the systems virtually than with the realities of hardware ownership.

I love that this thread started 11 years ago. The issues remain the same: space vs. clutter, reliability vs. age, volume vs. curation. Most of the classic systems were decently emulated when this thread began. Since then, choice and accuracy have improved, as have documentation and availability. What a wonderful time!

[+Gemintronic]

Playing the devils advocate, letting a collection of commercial acquisitions define you is also a form of selling out.

 

My classic gaming goes where I want with the convenient features I need. Just yesterday I loaded up my Dingoo handheld with NES, SMS, O2, PCE and Genesis homebrew and had a greatly relaxing lunch break.

[Algus]

I used to console myself by saying, "I'm not really a collector, I just buy games I like and want to play" and that's true. I have hardly any crap in my collection, all just big hits or obscure stuff that suits my fancy. But the truth is after 23 years of gaming (plus other interests) I just have to much stuff. I just want to get rid of it all and keep all my content digitally on a nice Thunderbolt external drive. Movies, music, games, etc.

 

I think my books will be the first to go though. Half the stuff I own is from my college days and I can just download it a;; for free from Project Guttenberg anyway. How many copies of Shakespeare do I need? Answer: none, the Bard is free to all on the internet. I can't remember the last time I read a paper book anyway.

[Keatah]

Everyone knows I prefer emulation. If you don't, now you do.

 

It's possible to look at a certain franchise or system as a concept. Currently you have two choices in how you enjoy that concept. Emulation or the physical embodiment.

 

If I feel like playing Atari VCS, then through emulation I can experience all the joys of the original Game Program, anytime, anywhere.

 

One reason (of many) I like emulation is because the experience I have today with game X will be the same or better in 5 years or 10 years. Others include no degradation of hardware. No sticky mucky greasy controllers, no mal-adjusted CRT displays, no intermittent switches, connectors, or power supplies. I can take my "stuff" with me in the form of a USB disk and jam anytime any place - even on LV-426. I don't have to worry about yellowing pages, torn covers, snot slobber, or other forms of disfigurement. No intermittent or cracked solder joints, no corrosion induced intermittent behavior. Acquiring replacement parts is a non-issue. What about those dried up capacitors and failing voltage regulators, eh? A thing of the past to be sure.

 

The quintessential and controversial term "bit rot" is not associated with emulation. Gummy labels which absorbed their own glue are a thing of the past. There is no need to worry about yellowing and cracking plastic. Fading and failing bit patterns are nowhere to be seen. And best of all, emulation does not require Retrobright - although you can use it if so desired.

 

Good hi-res scans and photos of: labels, cartridges, documentation, boxes, manuals, magazines, newsletters, technical publications, development notes, source code listings, sales receipts, warranties, quick-setup guides, advertising & promotional material, video clips, documentaries, interviews, audio recordings, podcasts, schematics, specifications, and more.. All of that, all of that and more can be had without filling up a room of junk piled onto sagging shelves.. Junk that can become musty and moldy and smelly and dusty with time. Bits in a FlashROM or on a spinning platter alleviate all physical problems accompanying a bulging space-consuming collection.

 

Additionally, consistent sizings of boxes and containers doesn't pose a problem. The difficulty of fitting things here and there on shelves and desks and underneath other stuff is alleviated. Transportation couldn't be simpler. And the emulated collection can even get to your destination before you! ..if you ship it ahead of time or email it or do an online backup service..

 

A virtual collection homogenizes all sorts of media like: ROM cartridges, magnetic tapes, magnetic disks, optical discs, type-in program listings,

 

Something else not frequently mentioned is theft or fire or other acts of nature. A virtual collection is impervious to theft providing you took 1/2 hour to make a backup.

 

Furthermore, every time a new version of emulator X comes out; it feels like a firmware upgrade offering new features or fixing old issues. Sometimes if the features are more significant it's like getting the "2" version of a console. And you can still keep your old console. Emulation adds new features we always wanted on our classic consoles such as the ability to save a game, or tweak colors, or speed up & slow down gameplay.

 

Emulation filters out the garbage and permits the essence of the games to shine through. It reaches back in time and pulls the best of the best forward to you today. But emulation also lets you collect the garbage, at no cost in physical space. Emulation is the natural evolution. Emulation will be around when the originals develop hardware problems and are no longer operational.. Physical constraints vanish, burdens are lifted.

 

Without a doubt emulation is in vogue. Emulation is the natural evolution. Elite. Elegant. The way of the upper-class. And rightly so!

[omegadot]

My sticking point for emulation has always been controllers. I really want the right controller for the game. The 360 paddle does a good job of adapting to basically any system but I'll always prefer the original. That has led to an impressive collection of USB adapters - clutter! And quite a few USB knock-offs, some of which are actually pretty great.

 

Of course the failure of batteries over time also makes emulation great for RPGs and games with high scores.

[scotty]

My sticking point for emulation has always been controllers. I really want the right controller for the game. The 360 paddle does a good job of adapting to basically any system but I'll always prefer the original. That has led to an impressive collection of USB adapters - clutter! And quite a few USB knock-offs, some of which are actually pretty great.

 

Of course the failure of batteries over time also makes emulation great for RPGs and games with high scores.

 

Check out the Bliss Box. It is basically an Everything-to-USB adapter. I must say, after owning if for almost 2 years, it is INCREDIBLE. 15 ports covering anything you can throw at it. Price is a litle steep, but if you consider what you are getting, it is worth every penny.