88 replies to this topic

[NE146]

Nudging/bumping without tilting is 100% a part of pinball. why do you think simulated nudging is included even in video versions of the game dating back to Atari 2600 Pinball? Heck, even Pokemon Pinball on the Gameboy has a up/left/right nudge?   You have to know what to do however and that comes with practice. If you nudge left or right while the ball is travelling a certain direction (left/right/down/ or just hitting something, then what will happen). That takes a lot of trial and error and practice to be able to do it intuitively.. But yes, since it's mechanical, some tables Tilt sensors will be more sensitive than others, and that's part of the game.

Crazy Climber, on Mon May 21, 2012 9:46 AM, said:

Pinball is all about learning the table objectives (missions/modes/whatever you prefer to call them) If you know the ruleset and how to beat all the modes (and enter wizard if applicable) you will score big, even if you lack in actual skill

Very very true. However I do have to say that even when I do understand smaller mini-goals in tables, my problem is I lack the skill to pull them off. i.e. hit it up a certain ramp to trigger multiball..  well it will be all set up, and I'll go through 3 balls and never be able to hit that ramp. Never mind visiting all the rooms in Adams Family. I just can never do what needs to be done, consistently.

Edited by NE146, Mon May 21, 2012 11:07 AM.

[Arkhan]

Well, I was never really told to slam my self into the pinball machines .   by the time I got to pinball, it was already a bit of a dying concept.

Now, I need to go try it some more.

[NE146]

Arkhan, on Mon May 21, 2012 11:17 AM, said:

Well, I was never really told to slam my self into the pinball machines

You could slam, or you could be more subtle.. and all steps in between.

[BillyHW]

Arkhan, on Mon May 21, 2012 11:01 AM, said:

I'm sweet at SF2.

Chun Li, all day, everyday.

and Dhalsim, and Zangief.

Screw Guile.  He's a toolbag.

Hmmm, Chun Li, Dhalsim and Zangief.  Interesting threesome.

[Arkhan]

Look, I will be slamming so hard I will have to wear a cup!

[Crazy Climber]

Arkhan, on Mon May 21, 2012 10:53 AM, said:

I prefer early 80s arcade games.  I own a Tron cabinet, and want a Defender one next

Well as someone who has owned over 200 arcade machines...I concur
I miss my Defender, I have owned a dedicated but my favorite was a rare duramold williams cabinet (converted blaster) that I made into a multi williams. Had a one-off CPO made for it and everything. I broke the Marquee while bending it to fit the odd shape of a duramold and never did get another one.....ahhh....should have kept this one but I wanted a Twilight Zone pinball machine and something had to go...

NE146, on Mon May 21, 2012 11:07 AM, said:

Nudging/bumping without tilting is 100% a part of pinball. why do you think simulated nudging is included even in video versions of the game dating back to Atari 2600 Pinball? Heck, even Pokemon Pinball on the Gameboy has a up/left/right nudge?   You have to know what to do however and that comes with practice. If you nudge left or right while the ball is travelling a certain direction (left/right/down/ or just hitting something, then what will happen). That takes a lot of trial and error and practice to be able to do it intuitively.. But yes, since it's mechanical, some tables Tilt sensors will be more sensitive than others, and that's part of the game.

Crazy Climber, on Mon May 21, 2012 9:46 AM, said:

Pinball is all about learning the table objectives (missions/modes/whatever you prefer to call them) If you know the ruleset and how to beat all the modes (and enter wizard if applicable) you will score big, even if you lack in actual skill

Very very true. However I do have to say that even when I do understand smaller mini-goals in tables, my problem is I lack the skill to pull them off. i.e. hit it up a certain ramp to trigger multiball..  well it will be all set up, and I'll go through 3 balls and never be able to hit that ramp. Never mind visiting all the rooms in Adams Family. I just can never do what needs to be done, consistently.

lol, yeah I know what you mean. I am by no means an "eagle eye" myself
This is how I tackle Addams...
Just practice the shit out of hitting the Bear Ramp and the electric chair hole.
Basically hit it up the Bear Ramp to light the electric chair and then pop it in the chair to light the mode
Now here is the trick, don't bother playing any of the modes, no multiball, no mamushka, nothing
. Addams lets you stack modes, as many as you want, so just keep drilling the Bear Ramp and hitting the elec/chair hole and make your only priority getting all the doors
I still remember my friends wondering how the hell I got "tour the mansion" wizard mode twice in a game.
I explained they could too if they quit draining all there balls actually trying to play the modes

Arkhan, on Mon May 21, 2012 11:17 AM, said:

Well, I was never really told to slam my self into the pinball machines .   by the time I got to pinball, it was already a bit of a dying concept.

Now, I need to go try it some more.

Pinball on location is yeah, pretty much dead.
The home market right now is INSANE, it has become a rich mans game though. Most good A titles you cant touch for under 4k these days, MANY climbing in the 5-6k+ range
Stern has caught on and is catering to it, thats why you generally do not see the new stuff out in public anymore but join any pinball forum and you will see many people talking about there next new Stern purchase. The newer Sterns are running 6k+ sad but true. They will start to lose a lot of the home market if they keep it up, I'll reluctantly pay 4k for something awesome if I have the cash at the time (Tron/transformers/etc) but not 6k.....just can't do it for a "toy"

@OP - Another one....DEFENDER!!!

[Arkhan]

Defender is easy once you know what you're supposed to be doing.

Most people just fly around like idiots and crash into everything.   Its not Gradius.  You don't HAVE to blast everything on screen.  Sometimes you can just move and get it on the next pass!

[Crazy Climber]

Arkhan, on Mon May 21, 2012 12:54 PM, said:

Defender is easy once you know what you're supposed to be doing.

Most people just fly around like idiots and crash into everything.   Its not Gradius.  You don't HAVE to blast everything on screen.  Sometimes you can just move and get it on the next pass!

Yeah, it's not tough to figure out or anything it's more the arcade button layout that throws me off, I think I was better as a kid in the actual arcade than as an adult with one in my house, lol, still love it though and I can play it pretty decent on a home system with a joypad style controller, just not the arcade machine, I definetily SUCK at that.

[Arkhan]

The control panel layout for it is pretty frigging idiotic, in all honesty.

You can tell it was done by a pinball guy.

Why it never occured to them to put a joystick in instead of thrust/reverse is beyond me.


The thrust/reverse is the problem for me.  It's unintuitive.    If I don't play defender for awhile, I usually spend the first two or three credits remembering how to reverse properly.

The buttonheavy stuff worked great for Asteroids.   I wonder if that's why they mimicked it here.  

It sucks for Defender.

[Crazy Climber]

Arkhan, on Mon May 21, 2012 1:03 PM, said:

The control panel layout for it is pretty frigging idiotic, in all honesty.

You can tell it was done by a pinball guy.

Why it never occured to them to put a joystick in instead of thrust/reverse is beyond me.


The thrust/reverse is the problem for me.  It's unintuitive. If I don't play defender for awhile, I usually spend the first two or three credits remembering how to reverse properly.

The buttonheavy stuff worked great for Asteroids.   I wonder if that's why they mimicked it here.  

It sucks for Defender.

lol, Jarvis is awesome! EVERYTHING that dude made was gold! (well, I have never played a few of his early atari pins but I'm sure he did the best he could with the shitty budget they provided, lol)
...but yeah, it is harder than it needs to be due to the controller, thats for sure but there is a certain degree of satisfaction when getting it to flow properly. The CP being overly hard made the game more memorable for me personally, same with.......Crazy Climber! Another arcade game I love but SUCK at

[Arkhan]

Vanguard was another game with odd control paneling.   Its damn fun though.



I really like Defender though.   I am actually making a clone of it right now.  It's been halted for about 7 months, but has resumed as of yesterday, since I finished my masters degree and can stop worrying about schoolwork forever and ever.

The first time I played it was the Atari 2600 Defender.   My mind was blown when I got Defender II for NES, and then found an arcade machine version at an arcade.  

The Atari 2600 one is still a damn fine version.  I don't care if it's all tardy.

[NE146]

Arkhan, on Mon May 21, 2012 1:03 PM, said:

Why it never occured to them to put a joystick in instead of thrust/reverse is beyond me.

I disagree about the Defender controls.. Yes it's obviously early design, but the actual gameplay is designed around it and it works well in the context of the game. Like the best of Williams games, practice makes a huge difference and the controls definitely DO become intuitive.

Let me just say the game works better with a thrust/reverse better than it would with a simple joystick for the simple reason of the rapid reversals that you need to do in advanced stages of the game (i.e. free space with dozens of mutants swarming). To do that with a joystick just simply wouldn't work as well. Again, just saying.

[raskar42]

I've only played arcade defender a few  times. it's definitely an experience.  
i wasn't very good.


also chess.

i 'm terrible at chess. i could play for hours, but i'm really bad at it. .

Edited by raskar42, Mon May 21, 2012 10:18 PM.

[Turbogfx]

Pretty much all Mega Man games  

[Arkhan]

NE146, on Mon May 21, 2012 8:22 PM, said:

Arkhan, on Mon May 21, 2012 1:03 PM, said:

Why it never occured to them to put a joystick in instead of thrust/reverse is beyond me.

I disagree about the Defender controls.. Yes it's obviously early design, but the actual gameplay is designed around it and it works well in the context of the game. Like the best of Williams games, practice makes a huge difference and the controls definitely DO become intuitive.

Let me just say the game works better with a thrust/reverse better than it would with a simple joystick for the simple reason of the rapid reversals that you need to do in advanced stages of the game (i.e. free space with dozens of mutants swarming). To do that with a joystick just simply wouldn't work as well. Again, just saying.

I always find the control-buttons all goony and annoying to deal with.

I'm also playing on a 1980s cabinet in >2006

so, the buttons are probably dicked up anyway.

I hope my Defender game's controls don't disappoint people.    I was going to support 6 button gameplay, but I am pretty sure it would be retarded to do that on a controller.  The buttons are too close and you'd be all fumbling around.

[Crazy Climber]

Arkhan, on Mon May 21, 2012 6:45 PM, said:

Vanguard was another game with odd control paneling.   Its damn fun though.



I really like Defender though.   I am actually making a clone of it right now.  It's been halted for about 7 months, but has resumed as of yesterday, since I finished my masters degree and can stop worrying about schoolwork forever and ever.

The first time I played it was the Atari 2600 Defender.   My mind was blown when I got Defender II for NES, and then found an arcade machine version at an arcade.  

The Atari 2600 one is still a damn fine version.  I don't care if it's all tardy.

Still have never played/seen a Vanguard arcade machine unfortunately...

Whats your clone for? PC?
Protector SE (jag) and Protector Vec are pretty good. Some people seem to dig Defender 2000 for the Jag also but I didn't really care for it..

NE146, on Mon May 21, 2012 8:22 PM, said:

Let me just say the game works better with a thrust/reverse better than it would with a simple joystick for the simple reason of the rapid reversals that you need to do in advanced stages of the game (i.e. free space with dozens of mutants swarming). To do that with a joystick just simply wouldn't work as well. Again, just saying.

Good point! I am so bad at Defender though I can't get far enough for it to matter, lol

Another game I like but suck at - SPY HUNTER on pretty much any console up to and including the original arcade machine. I would say the Coleco version is the easiest for me, anything else.......
FUGGEDABOUTIT!

[ydcl]

Street fighter 2!!! I love fighting games but I just suck at them, I just can't punch in the codes in a coherent maner to win the fight. I always end up spazing out...

[Arkhan]

Crazy Climber, on Tue May 22, 2012 7:28 AM, said:

Whats your clone for? PC?

Close.

PC Engine

www.aetherbyte.com/atl.php

There's an old demo video from last year www.youtube.com/aetherbyte  

Visually not much has changed since then.   I reworked the underthe hood physics and got the parallax bugs straightened out.

I should have it in a decent demo state by the next CCAG in about month.

[Cynicaster]

Controls are everything.  In the case of Defender, yes, they're a handful but I'd never have any desire to play the game if the controls consisted of an 8-way joystick with buttons for fire, bomb, and hyperspace.  If I want to play a side-scrolling shooter with a generic control panel I'll play R-Type or Gradius.  For me, fighting the controls is the only thing that makes Defender stand out as the classic it is.

[bomberpunk]

pretty much any VS fighter. i love smashing random buttons and yelling and foaming at the mouth though.

[NE146]

I think the biggest case for Defender controls is the everyone who got good at the game in the 80's and could score in the millions on a game that is really hard. Something must have worked.

I just remembered too that I grew up with a different Defender control panel. The one I played was made by Taito and had the reverse button on top of the joystick.  Seemed fine then..  

Edited by NE146, Tue May 22, 2012 11:38 AM.

[Arkhan]

I was raised on d-pads.  I missed the goony button layout era.

[Lord Helmet]

Defender/Stargate
Mortal Kombat II
Tempest
Asteroids
Donkey Kong

[Rex Dart]

I guess I should just throw in "all vector games"

[Cebus Capucinis]

I am horrible at Marble Madness but it is definitely one of my favorites.