The Mystery of Ultima V for the Atari 8-Bit

[Rybags]

Yep, good luck with getting it back.

 

There's PC-based assemblers that are the done thing these days, Atari Asm/Ed and Mac-65 sources can generally be fixed to work with them fairly quickly.

[Bryan]

I always wondered if piracy was really any worse on the Atari or if it was just that other machines were outselling it by the mid-80s. If piracy was worse, then it meant we had the most talented crackers (or the most efficient BBS scene).

[Asaki]

For the sake of history, allow me to tell you a story to help clarify what the disk images you all have for Ultima 5 represent.

So what's the story there? Because I do not have those disks, and know nothing about them.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Asaki

[Rybags]

Heh... the piracy excuse is just the biggest crock ever.

 

The C64 / 1541 out of the box could copy much protected stuff with software alone (no patches), and it continued with the Amiga being able to copy stuff much easier than the ST.

And the cracking scene was practically born on the C64, of course games on Atari, Apple 2 and others had been cracked before it existed but the whole scene exploded by the mid 80s.

 

As it was, I remember plenty of mates having some originals + copied stuff for the Atari. On the C64, practically everything I ever saw was pirated.

[Bryan]

Agreed. My friends with 64's seemed to be trading at a frantic pace. Plus, since the 64 was one of the most affordable options, it attracted users who weren't going to (or couldn't) spend much on software.

 

However, it was rarer to find a 64 user with a modem. Here in the US, most of them I knew just had a 1541. I think the Apple guys generally had the most elaborate set-ups. Apple guys were like a cult (even then). They'd always pop into whatever BBS I was on and start bashing everyone.

[Fox-1 / mnx]

On the C64, practically everything I ever saw was pirated.

 

I guess it depends on where you live.

 

Bought an 130XE in 1986, with just a 1010 recorder. I had a hard time finding an original game on tape. Found exactly 1, which was Action Biker.

 

Got a 1050 in 1987. It wasn't until 1989 I saw the first original Atari 8-bit disk. Pirated copies were no problem. Originals just didn't seem to exist over here.

[Rybags]

The C64 here was cheaper probably until the very end of the 1980s by which time both were pretty irrelevant.

 

We're talking release price not much over a 400, then when the 800XL came out it was probably $150 more than a C64 - I think I paid something like $650 when I got mine.

 

Cheapest Atari I ever saw retail was probably somewhere around 1989-1991, an XEGS for about 200 bucks.

 

 

The software situation here was a joke. Getting Atari titles was easy enough, and the high profile titles from Synapse, Broderbund and the like, but that was about it. But regardless, we often paid double the US price.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Rybags

[high voltage]

Creative Software?

Them of Apple Panic and Save New York fame?

[RobS]

Creative Software?

Them of Apple Panic and Save New York fame?

 

Ha! Sadly, no. It was Creative Software Systems. Mine was a very small enterprise. I did however get my product announcements into an issue of Antic or Analog (or both, I'll look them up and see) but only ever sold a few copies. I'll post disk images of the products I made at that time. I still use Sleuth, and its been very useful for sector hacking the U5 map disks now.

[RobS]

Here we go. The products were announced in the Sept. 1989 issues of Antic and Analog. Pretty much right at the end of both mags. Analog would run 3 more issues and Antic 6. Too late in the game for utility products like these I guess.

[Godzilla]

that would have been awesome, I would have loved to see u5 on atari... shame origin didn't agree!

[+rdemming]

On the C64, practically everything I ever saw was pirated.

 

I guess it depends on where you live.

 

Bought an 130XE in 1986, with just a 1010 recorder. I had a hard time finding an original game on tape. Found exactly 1, which was Action Biker.

 

Got a 1050 in 1987. It wasn't until 1989 I saw the first original Atari 8-bit disk. Pirated copies were no problem. Originals just didn't seem to exist over here.

 

Maybe it was different in the south but in the north of the Netherlands there were a few shops who had Atari software When I got my Atari 8-bit chain store V&D still had 8-bit software. Also chain store Capi-Lux had Atari 8-bit & ST software for many years. Then you had the Byte computer shops in Groningen and Leeuwarden. And in the south you had "De Harense Smit" and another I forgot the name of. So they were there but you had to look for it. So I obtained quite a bit of original 8-bit & ST software.

 

About piracy, I didn't knew many other Atari users so I didn't have much copies.

And if only 10% of C64 users would buy originals and 90% of the Atari users would buy originals, then you would still sell more C64 software. In the Netherlands, the dominant system was C64 outnumbering the Atari 8-bit many times. So despite the piracy on C64 it was probably still more interesting to make C64 games than Atari games.

 

Robert

[Tempest]

I always thought Piracy was bigger on the Apple than the 8-bit. Heck, back in the day I think 90% of my software for my Apple were copies.

[bbking67]

I don't think piracy was any higher on the Atari than the other systems. I think compared to the C64, it was a numbers game--not enough users. Even the Apple II had big numbers if you include the various clones.

[Fox-1 / mnx]

When I got my Atari 8-bit chain store V&D still had 8-bit software. Also chain store Capi-Lux had Atari 8-bit & ST software for many years. Then you had the Byte computer shops in Groningen and Leeuwarden. And in the south you had "De Harense Smit" and another I forgot the name of. So they were there but you had to look for it. So I obtained quite a bit of original 8-bit & ST software.

 

V&D over here already dropped Atari support in 1986. No Capi-Lux over here. Byte was unknown over here back then. Harense Smit (over here) only sold A8 stuff for a very short time. In 1991 or so I bought a whole lot of A8 software at the Veron event in Den Bosch and those all had old Harense Smit price tags on them.

 

The Macro over here supported A8 but only the hardware. In 1986, the only software thing I could get was at Dixons, an Action Bike tape and a DOS 2.5 disk.

[VW]

To this day, I don't understand the piracy excuse that is still used by game companies to defend their delaying/canceling of PC versions of games. To me it should come down to are the expected number of copies sold going to generate enough revenue to make a profit on the port? If your break even point would come at 200,000 copies sold and 2 million people end up buying it and 10 million pirate it, the port is still worth doing.

[Rybags]

The problem is modern games tend to have huge production budgets and lots of people involved.

 

In the old days the excuse was lame, essentially you were paying 1 programmer and optionally had a couple more doing the music some graphics.

All up, maybe 9 months labour time which would probably mean 10,000 sales to cover those expenses and maybe another 10,000 to recover marketing and distribution.

 

These days, just the voice actors alone are probably making more money than the programmer was in 1982.

 

But the multi million $ budgets still don't stop them from releasing rubbish games. The overall percentage has decreased but still ever-present.

[FastRobPlus]

Rob - Thanks for the backstory. That was a great read!

[VladR]

On the C64, practically everything I ever saw was pirated.

 

I guess it depends on where you live.

 

Bought an 130XE in 1986, with just a 1010 recorder. I had a hard time finding an original game on tape. Found exactly 1, which was Action Biker.

 

Got a 1050 in 1987. It wasn't until 1989 I saw the first original Atari 8-bit disk. Pirated copies were no problem. Originals just didn't seem to exist over here.

Well, you at least saw one original tape. I never did, in my entire life.

 

In my country, Atari was just a grey market - there were no official shops whatsoever. And you couldn`t just hop over the Iron Curtain and come back (and live to tell about it )

 

I think it was around `96 when i realized that there probably was such thing as shops selling Atari games (when I saw the first shop with an actual boxed PC games (costing upwards of 80% of average salary in the region) and got an heureka moment - "Wait a second, perhaps somewhere in the world they even sold Atari games like that" )

 

Piracy was the only way - take it or leave it

[+DarkLord]

Rob - Thanks for the backstory. That was a great read!

 

I agree. Also, while Ultima V is available for the Atari ST, with even a patched

version that runs from hard drive, I'd still like to see it finished for my 800XL.

 

Keeping my fingers crossed.

[ivop]

Keeping my fingers crossed.

 

 

crossed?

[ivop]

Maybe it was different in the south but in the north of the Netherlands there were a few shops who had Atari software When I got my Atari 8-bit chain store V&D still had 8-bit software. Also chain store Capi-Lux had Atari 8-bit & ST software for many years. Then you had the Byte computer shops in Groningen and Leeuwarden. And in the south you had "De Harense Smit" and another I forgot the name of. So they were there but you had to look for it. So I obtained quite a bit of original 8-bit & ST software.

 

My dad got our 800XL at Capi-Lux in '85 and it was way cheaper than the C64 was at the time (we went from VIC-20 to 800XL because of the price). The 1050 we bought in '87 was 650 guilders though (I guess about $300-350 at that time). As for software, it was mostly tape as I recall.

 

 

About piracy, I didn't knew many other Atari users so I didn't have much copies.

And if only 10% of C64 users would buy originals and 90% of the Atari users would buy originals, then you would still sell more C64 software. In the Netherlands, the dominant system was C64 outnumbering the Atari 8-bit many times. So despite the piracy on C64 it was probably still more interesting to make C64 games than Atari games.

 

I'm glad the drugstore around the (my) corner sold all the computer mags that were around at the time for various platforms. Page 6, Atari User, Atari Magazine (the Dutch one from the SAG) and later it sold the New Atari User in the 90's. I had a "problem" with getting pirated software at first too, until I started responding to ads in the previously mentioned magazines. I swapped software with people from all over the world and with the Dutch guys, we'd stuck 3M tape on the poststamps an re-used the same envelope for months

Edited June 11, 2012 by ivop

[+DarkLord]

 

crossed?

 

Yes, the other hand - the one you can't see in the photo.

[Bryan]

crossed?

 

Yes, the other hand - the one you can't see in the photo.

Speaking of which, a smiling dude giving you the "peace" sign doesn't exactly say "DarkLord" does it? You need some goth makeup and a really angry scowl and maybe some blood for good measure.

[JohnBuell]

Here we go. The products were announced in the Sept. 1989 issues of Antic and Analog. Pretty much right at the end of both mags. Analog would run 3 more issues and Antic 6. Too late in the game for utility products like these I guess.

Looks like you and Brad (Best) are the only two on those pages still "in the biz."

 

Here's a question - would it be more efficient for your Sleuth software if it could be converted to run off of a flash cart, or do you think it's "just fine" as an .atr?