+darryl1970 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I don't intend this to be an evaluation of the current 8-bit Donkey Kong. Additionally, there are other threads comparing the various ports.. I am just wondering how difficult it would be to convert the Ocean version to the 8-bit. The Commodore 64 version looks awefully close to the Amstrad CPC version. The Amstrad used software sprites, and it is powered by a Z80. The C-64 uses it's Sprite chip, and it is powered by the 6502. However, it seems like SOME porting was done where possiuble. It would be nice to see that version duplicated on the 8-bit, as the graphics are a little more arcade-like, Mario looks like Mario, Donkey Kong looks like DK, and all of the screen levels are present and proportional. Don't get me wrong... I love the Atari version. The Atari version has a better jump (with spring back), Mario ducks down on the third frame, and the gameplay is uniquely fast. I am a huge fan of the arcade, but I like the Atari version in an apple/oranges way. I would also appreciate a version like the Amstrad/C-64 on the Atari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I don't see the point. First, there's "Donkey Kong Arcade" with enhanced music/sound which Fandal hacked in. Next, the Ocean version might look closer but the control and gameplay is somewhat lame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+darryl1970 Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 I don't see the point. First, there's "Donkey Kong Arcade" with enhanced music/sound which Fandal hacked in. Next, the Ocean version might look closer but the control and gameplay is somewhat lame. The hack is nice, but I wouldn't even know how to get it now. <b>I would actually like to have that version too!</b> It did fix the poor collision detection overhead. The sounds were a little better in some areas. The point for me would be that Donkey Kong is on the wrong side (and this could be fixed), extra intermissions and animations could be added in, and some of the graphics fail to show that Atari was capable of more.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I love the A8 version so much (more than the arcade) that I suppose the graphics have grown on me to the point that I don't see them as inaccurate anymore. But yeah, the Ocean version looks nice on the C64, although as Rybags said, gameplay sucks. In lots of versions of this game, Mario seems to be slipping on bacon grease as he runs, moving much slower than the speed his legs would propel him if he had "traction." But since the A8 can't bring as many colors to the screen at once as the C64, I'm not sure the game could be improved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R4ngerM4n Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 But since the A8 can't bring as many colors to the screen at once as the C64, I'm not sure the game could be improved. José? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 But since the A8 can't bring as many colors to the screen at once as the C64, I'm not sure the game could be improved. José? From an old Thread here: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 But since the A8 can't bring as many colors to the screen at once as the C64, I'm not sure the game could be improved. José? And the " " is in reference to what? That the A8 can't bring as many colors to the screen at once as the C64, that the game could not be improved, neither, or both? Please be more specific and verbose in your criticism. From an old Thread here: What is that? An actual A8 screenshot? Can the game or code be downloaded so I can try it on a real machine, or is that just a mockup done on a modern PC that is allegedly what somebody thinks the A8 is capable of yet has not created? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 what is that? An actual A8 screenshot? Can the game or code be downloaded so I can try it on a real machine, or is that just a mockup done on a modern PC that is allegedly what somebody thinks the A8 is capable of yet has not created? This is a possible looking on A8 for a static screens game like Donkey Kong. It's a simply 5colours ANTIC4 with the four PMGs used and that original A8 version didn't had. (and yes, it's a real A8 screenshot but to move the guys then we need a programmer ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 This is a possible looking on A8 for a static screens game like Donkey Kong. It's a simply 5colours ANTIC4 with the four PMGs used and that original A8 version didn't had. (and yes, it's a real A8 screenshot but to move the guys then we need a programmer ) I figured the original DK was already using PMGs to bring some more colors to the screen for a few objects. You mean it does not? As far as programmer.... I nominate AA user "tep392" who fixed Pacman! http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/190746-pac-man-update-for-atari-8-bit/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) This is a possible looking on A8 for a static screens game like Donkey Kong. It's a simply 5colours ANTIC4 with the four PMGs used and that original A8 version didn't had. (and yes, it's a real A8 screenshot but to move the guys then we need a programmer ) I figured the original DK was already using PMGs to bring some more colors to the screen for a few objects. You mean it does not? As far as programmer.... I nominate AA user "tep392" who fixed Pacman! http://www.atariage....or-atari-8-bit/ No, the original it's only 4colours GR.15 Bitmap Mode: But my proposal would need new gfxs and new code. Tep392 on Pac-Man use the original code and gfxs with some enhancements. But if it is for a totally new then I would like to have this and I think it's ideal for A8: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8G0mVmvxdo http://www.gamefaqs....key-kong/images http://www.mobygames...ng-/screenshots (and think this using the A8 pallete in all that Worlds) Edited June 28, 2012 by José Pereira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 But since the A8 can't bring as many colors to the screen at once as the C64, I'm not sure the game could be improved. José? From an old Thread here: But if it is just the original Arcade version using A8 possibility 240scanlines then I forgot to say that this picture is based on the overscan version of Amstrad CPC: http://www.mobygames.com/game/cpc/donkey-kong/screenshots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I figured the original DK was already using PMGs to bring some more colors to the screen for a few objects. You mean it does not? No, the original it's only 4colours GR.15 Bitmap Mode: I formerly thought the same thing, but it's not correct. The PMs used are just so close to the bitmapped playfield colors that it's hard to distinguish them as being different. Jumpman (Mario) uses two PMs, one for the red and one for the blue, which are both just slightly darker than the playfield colors (the yellow on jumpman is playfield). There are also PMs used for item graphics in various levels, with the same problem, that they are quite close to the playfield colors. One thing though, they're a little more distinguishable on real hardware. So emulation palettes aren't helping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+darryl1970 Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) I figured the original DK was already using PMGs to bring some more colors to the screen for a few objects. You mean it does not? No, the original it's only 4colours GR.15 Bitmap Mode: I formerly thought the same thing, but it's not correct. The PMs used are just so close to the bitmapped playfield colors that it's hard to distinguish them as being different. Jumpman (Mario) uses two PMs, one for the red and one for the blue, which are both just slightly darker than the playfield colors (the yellow on jumpman is playfield). There are also PMs used for item graphics in various levels, with the same problem, that they are quite close to the playfield colors. One thing though, they're a little more distinguishable on real hardware. So emulation palettes aren't helping. I have played a little with the code back in the day. I tried to redefine the graphics for Mario on the A8.. Mario is 3 players, and the objects (hat, purse, umbrella -- one of them replaced with a birthday cake???), are all players. I had trouble, because I did not make a sophisticated editor. I dumped the code into a player and edited one line at a time...lol. I later found that the blue player is offset... I think it is one pixel behind the white and red players.. This is why some of the death animations look SO bad.. And there's a glitch where one frame has a blue line under mario....(the scrunched down frame) BTW, I think that is why Oceans running animation looks bad.. Mario is supposed to be one pixel shorter on one of the animation frames. They did not compensate. The jump is a little fast... If the "hang-time" and running speed were adjusted, Ocean would have it.. Also, Atari had the "bounce" right off of the walls. OH YEAH.. And I was thinking Mario could be done with two players.. I often played with this, because the red and blue can overlap to make a white color in the right mode. I was more of a BASIC programmer, so I couldn't do much once I drew the characters.. Edited June 28, 2012 by darryl1970 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 I figured the original DK was already using PMGs to bring some more colors to the screen for a few objects. You mean it does not? No, the original it's only 4colours GR.15 Bitmap Mode: I formerly thought the same thing, but it's not correct. The PMs used are just so close to the bitmapped playfield colors that it's hard to distinguish them as being different. Jumpman (Mario) uses two PMs, one for the red and one for the blue, which are both just slightly darker than the playfield colors (the yellow on jumpman is playfield). There are also PMs used for item graphics in various levels, with the same problem, that they are quite close to the playfield colors. One thing though, they're a little more distinguishable on real hardware. So emulation palettes aren't helping. I have played a little with the code back in the day. I tried to redefine the graphics for Mario on the A8.. Mario is 3 players... OK, 3 Players. I didn't study the code, I just examined the graphics and I could see the slight color differences, so I knew they were there. The yellow on jumpman is the same color used for the playfield graphics, so I wasn't sure -- I just assumed he was using playfield there. Anyway, the PMs are there, so making the game a little more colorful would be pretty simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) I have played a little with the code back in the day. I tried to redefine the graphics for Mario on the A8.. Mario is 3 players, and the objects (hat, purse, umbrella -- one of them replaced with a birthday cake???), are all players. I had trouble, because I did not make a sophisticated editor. I dumped the code into a player and edited one line at a time...lol. I later found that the blue player is offset... I think it is one pixel behind the white and red players.. This is why some of the death animations look SO bad.. And there's a glitch where one frame has a blue line under mario....(the scrunched down frame) OH YEAH.. And I was thinking Mario could be done with two players.. I often played with this, because the red and blue can overlap to make a white color in the right mode. I was more of a BASIC programmer, so I couldn't do much once I drew the characters.. In all the Mario's games I always thought 'how to' using just two Players in Multicolour Mode you would get the 3colours but it seems impossible... At least if you want to port directly the Mario's colours. On the Multicolours PMGs OR the Red (colour3) with Blue (colour7) and you'll get same colour7 or Red with Blue2 (colour8) and you'll get a Green2 (colour11).You will never get a skin colour like a Pink or even a Brown (as the Oring between the two will never come close to Brown colour 15). Edited June 29, 2012 by José Pereira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+darryl1970 Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 I have played a little with the code back in the day. I tried to redefine the graphics for Mario on the A8.. Mario is 3 players, and the objects (hat, purse, umbrella -- one of them replaced with a birthday cake???), are all players. I had trouble, because I did not make a sophisticated editor. I dumped the code into a player and edited one line at a time...lol. I later found that the blue player is offset... I think it is one pixel behind the white and red players.. This is why some of the death animations look SO bad.. And there's a glitch where one frame has a blue line under mario....(the scrunched down frame) OH YEAH.. And I was thinking Mario could be done with two players.. I often played with this, because the red and blue can overlap to make a white color in the right mode. I was more of a BASIC programmer, so I couldn't do much once I drew the characters.. In all the Mario's games I always thought 'how to' using just two Players in Multicolour Mode you would get the 3colours but it seems impossible... At least if you want to port directly the Mario's colours. On the Multicolours PMGs OR the Red (colour3) with Blue (colour7) and you'll get same colour7 or Red with Blue2 (colour8) and you'll get a Green2 (colour11).You will never get a skin colour like a Pink or even a Brown (as the Oring between the two will never come close to Brown colour 15). It has been a REALLY LONG time, and my actual 8-bits are in a plastic containter in the basement unitl I can find room to display them...lol. I seem to recall raising the luminance high enough to make it look like an off-white, which is kind of arcade-like. It's not exact, but nothing is.. Of course, if the effort is made, we would want to strive for the best possible likeness. I have also found it interesting that I don't miss the white much in the TI-99 version.. Mario has a pink face, but it kind of works. lol Anyway... see what you're saying, but I seem to recall it working. Mario's blue and red were more like pink and light-blue maybe.. But it worked. In the end, I think it is about working around the system limitations. Back in the day, I think it was about trying to get as close as possibly, drawing for the system. For example, Donkey Kong is detailed, but looks nothing like the arcade. Ocean took the Mosaic approach. Donkey Kong isn't as detailed (as the 8-bits never would be until NES -- and stlll lack extra colors), but I see the arcade Donkey Kong when I look at DK! The Intellivision DK Arcade is a GREAT example of this. To polish the current version, I do like the collision detection and sounds from the hacked version. I wouldn't even know how to get that now. In addition, Donkey Kong has a blue pixel in his mouth and some holes in his head. I'd like to see these gone. I'd also like to see him not look like a fishhead from the side. Mario looks like a square blob to me. He walks out of sync (I think the frames are in a weird order too). I'd like to see Mario fixed. The Rivet board needs the ladder directly under the middle hammer. This adds an element to gameplay, although subtle; the firefoxes can truly trap you this way. I also hate the birthday cake.. lol. I am picking, but I do LOVE the version. I still think it gives us Atari owners bragging rights, and the programmer did an INCREDIBLE job, especially for hating the game.. lol. I can't believe he caught so much detail. A TRUE professional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 My question about donkey kong has to be this: Given that there's a 2600 version that sounds okay, and an Atari 8-bit version which also sounds okay why does the 7800 version sound so bloody awful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) One possible solution that I can see to have Mario's colouring closer to the arcade original would be with a combination of player and playfield overlap or'ing so Mario would be software and 2 players (and missiles if needed for width). It would require one pf colour to be always in the magenta range $50-$5F however to achieve that light brown colour via or'ing. The 7800 sprite is stretched as it seems whoever did the graphics has attempted to redraw it with almost the same pixel detail as the original without repixeling for 2:1. If you redraw the sprite frames from scratch based on the arcade with less horizontal detail you can keep it in proportion. mario.xex Edited June 29, 2012 by Tezz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grevle Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I don't see the point. First, there's "Donkey Kong Arcade" with enhanced music/sound which Fandal hacked in. So where is this "Donkey Kong Arcade" ? If it exist shouldnt it be avaible to the public ? Fandals site dont have this Arcade version, Well it doesnt seem so. Was this "Donkey Kong Arcade" ever avaible to the public ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+darryl1970 Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 I don't see the point. First, there's "Donkey Kong Arcade" with enhanced music/sound which Fandal hacked in. So where is this "Donkey Kong Arcade" ? If it exist shouldnt it be avaible to the public ? Fandals site dont have this Arcade version, Well it doesnt seem so. Was this "Donkey Kong Arcade" ever avaible to the public ? It was by the guy that did it I guess.... 8-Bit Donkey kong Arcade on Youtube. It had some decent changes to sound and collision detection, but it wasn't that big of a deal.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grevle Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 (edited) Well hopefully it can be realesed as a rom dump or exe file sometime, I like this donkey kong Arcade and the improvements after seeing the video on youtube. Edited July 1, 2012 by Grevle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 I don't see the point. First, there's "Donkey Kong Arcade" with enhanced music/sound which Fandal hacked in. So where is this "Donkey Kong Arcade" ? If it exist shouldnt it be avaible to the public ? Fandals site dont have this Arcade version, Well it doesnt seem so. Was this "Donkey Kong Arcade" ever avaible to the public ? It was by the guy that did it I guess.... 8-Bit Donkey kong Arcade on Youtube. It had some decent changes to sound and collision detection, but it wasn't that big of a deal.. Personally, I don't care for the "Donkey Kong Arcade." (1) That's a pretty ballsy name for what *LOOKS* like pretty much exactly the same game. See "Pac-man Arcade" for Atari 8-bit for a title with "Arcade" following the original title, that actually LOOKS more like the arcade. (2) "Yuck" on the new sounds. I think the A8 version sounds more like the arcade version, to begin with. This version sounds more like the Commodore 64 version(s). Very "synthy" sounds, but not even close to the arcade. Different? Yes. Arcade? No. (3) The deal where you can bump your head on the barrels above you (original A8 DK) makes the game more challenging, to me. As easy as DK is, it needs all the challenge it can get, in this day and age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 I always liked the sounds in the original Atari 8-bit version quite a bit. I thought the programmer did a nice job. KJMann's version sounds fine, but I prefer the original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+darryl1970 Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 (edited) I always liked the sounds in the original Atari 8-bit version quite a bit. I thought the programmer did a nice job. KJMann's version sounds fine, but I prefer the original. Honestly, I like the sounds in the original also, except for the timing of the footstep sounds. (The timing of the scoring is of in both I beleive) The big improvement is the collision detection. The randomness of the barrel patterns can also create an impossible situation. The collision detection just makes it unfair at times. Those are two changes I welcome. However, I agree it is not worthy of being called "Arcade", nor was it worth the $40 it was being sold for. I guess the bottom line is that nobody is up for the the job... lol. Either can't do it (like myself) or doesn't want to.. haha. As far as, "don't see the purpose", that's fine... Everybody has the right to their own opinion. I think that COULD be said about every remake we see on Atari Age. The purpose is that it apparently interests some people, me included. If I had the time and 6502 machine language familiarity, I would definitely do it myself. Donkey Kong is one of my favorite games. Atari 8-bit is one of my favorite ports, but it is an apples/oranges love to the arcade. Edited July 1, 2012 by darryl1970 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I don't think DK arcade was really more arcade like as far as sounds go. Personally, I think you need the extra girder on the first screen and same patters for barrels, flames, etc... for an "arcade" version. I never thought Atari DK played much like the arcade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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