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Accolade

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#1 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 5, 2012 4:56 AM

On these two Accolade Games it seems possible and not difficult to get all the Road/Tracks into A8 as it can even be in Bitmap Mode 4colours but then how would we get the cars?
When they are aproaching us they obviously increase their size and then just the four PMGs don't cover all their dimensions.
Even if we have two cars/trucks like here:

grand_prix_circuit_03.gif
(even the Tunnels are 4colours with DLIs./Road but C64 have the sprites to get the cars and the sides Panels)

The track would be good and better to implement on A8 if we go for GR.15 Bitmap Mode and the turning of the road be done by each scanline scrolling (like in Pole Position and Elektraglide) but this way the cars would need to be just PMGs (like on Elektaglide) and this way we would have them in just one colour each or:
-> Each car two PMs Multicolour it's a maximum of 10pixels wide and we get them in 3colours but this way:
a.)- Only two per scanline are possible (what isn't bad at all)
b.)- But they would increase their PMG's width and would turn 'blocky' like in Pole Position...


Anyone have thought in these type of games and how they could be done on A8?

Edited by José Pereira, Thu Jul 5, 2012 5:42 AM.


#2 snicklin OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 5, 2012 12:26 PM

I've always wondered about how "3D" race games get produced.

I suspect that you would need an LMS on each scanline, pointing to a place where the road is the width required and in the right place horizontally.

Then for half decent looking cars, you'd need to draw those on top in bitmap mode.

I guess it's not easy producing a racing car game on the A8.

#3 Wrathchild ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 6, 2012 4:05 AM

Both REVS on the BBC and C64 do OK with the 4 colours and maintains a good impression of speed with it too

#4 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 6, 2012 4:22 AM

Both REVS on the BBC and C64 do OK with the 4 colours and maintains a good impression of speed with it too

Hi.
Yes, but that I've already notice that.
And better on A8 because each scanline LMS you can build and turn/scroll the Road.
But how would you put there the cars?

If all the others like C16, BBC and CPC are only soft sprites machines and could turn the Road with them then is it so hard to put the cars on the Road in A8 as soft sprites and still have each scanline LMS (then we colour them with PMG overlays...)? Wouldn't this be very mathematical/programming hard?

Edited by José Pereira, Fri Jul 6, 2012 4:23 AM.


#5 TMR OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 6, 2012 4:54 AM

If all the others like C16, BBC and CPC are only soft sprites machines and could turn the Road with them then is it so hard to put the cars on the Road in A8 as soft sprites and still have each scanline LMS (then we colour them with PMG overlays...)? Wouldn't this be very mathematical/programming hard?


If you start shunting the road around with LMS all the software sprite renders have to allow for the offset of each line and that bumps up the complexity (each pixel row of a soft sprite essentially has to render at a different X offset, so no taking advantage of that lovely linear bitmap to speed drawing up) and subsequently their CPU requirements.

Using players to mark off the edges of the road and running the cars and roadside objects as software sprites into bitmap would probably be more viable.

#6 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 6, 2012 5:05 AM

Using players to mark off the edges of the road and running the cars and roadside objects as software sprites into bitmap would probably be more viable.

Yes, I thought in that using PMGs for the Road edges and Lines sometime ago but if I do that then I still have the complexity you're saying because then the cars as soft sprites would still mess with each scanline LMS, isn't it?

#7 Rybags OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 6, 2012 5:16 AM

LMS isn't needed if Players serve as lines.

Other advantage is that no screen kernal would be needed - Pole Position has a kernal that consumes 100% CPU all the way from the base of the mountains to the bottom of the display.

On the flipside it means that the grass/edges still have to be drawn for every line. But some sort of optimisation could be done, from one frame to the next you generally only have 2-3 bytes that change on the 2 edges and centreline, per scanline.

One thing I don't think has been done on Atari - a car racing game using raycasting 3D techniques. The advantage is that you do away with the "always pointing forward" aspect of a racing game, you can have realistic slides where the car ends up pointing anywhere. But it would probably end up not being a 50 FPS game.
Possibly doing it in narrow GTIA paletted mode or even 256 colour mode might be the way.

Edited by Rybags, Fri Jul 6, 2012 5:17 AM.


#8 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 6, 2012 5:18 AM


Using players to mark off the edges of the road and running the cars and roadside objects as software sprites into bitmap would probably be more viable.

Yes, I thought in that using PMGs for the Road edges and Lines sometime ago but if I do that then I still have the complexity you're saying because then the cars as soft sprites would still mess with each scanline LMS, isn't it?

Oh! I see, using PMGs changing xPos in each scanline I can get the turning of the Road but...I still have the problem that I have two colours PFs: -> Road in Black and Grass in Green.THEN:When I move the PMGs. Lines I still need to move the 'Road vs Grass' PFs.

#9 TMR OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 6, 2012 7:39 AM

Oh! I see, using PMGs changing xPos in each scanline I can get the turning of the Road but...I still have the problem that I have two colours PFs: -> Road in Black and Grass in Green.THEN:When I move the PMGs. Lines I still need to move the 'Road vs Grass' PFs.


Best bet would be to just have the lines over a fixed background colour, otherwise you're losing the advantage of generating the lines from sprites and not having to draw into the playfield. It would theoretically be possible to skip the lines and have the top half of the road generated from sprites (with a colour split right the way across it) and switch at the halfway point to using the sprites to produce the green at the roadside whilst the background is split as the road (what worries me is the amount of splitting per scanline required to make this work, it might be pushing the envelope past the point where the stamp falls off).

Edited by TMR, Fri Jul 6, 2012 7:40 AM.


#10 macgoo OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 6, 2012 9:07 AM

Both REVS on the BBC and C64 do OK with the 4 colours and maintains a good impression of speed with it too


Almost 2.5 times faster on the BBC making it the only machine I would play it on really, their memory access for CPU and graphics hardware is totally unimpeded for both unlike the C64 where bus contention occurs between the CPU and VIC-II chip sometimes.

Elite is also incredibly lethargic on the C64 and slower on Amstrad and Sinclair Z80 machines compared to the BBC Micro too.

How does Elektraglide do it on the Atari then? Obviously there is a DLI between road and dashboard but it is very very fast FPS for the actual road. Is there any way you could modify that game engine?

#11 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 6, 2012 9:21 AM

Elektraglide works in Elektraglide just because it was build as a new game concept.

Road ground, Edges and Grass are gfxs PFs.
Then the coming objects and Trees are PMGs (That's why they turn less detailed (PMG double&quadruple width) when they aproach the Panel).
And there's also a PMG or two on theTunnels.


This cannot be done on a Racinng game because the cars have resolution and pixelization are not single colour blocks like the Balls, The Pillars and that Trees at Elektraglide.

Edited by José Pereira, Fri Jul 6, 2012 9:22 AM.


#12 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 6, 2012 1:58 PM

Elektraglide works in Elektraglide just because it was build as a new game concept.

Road ground, Edges and Grass are gfxs PFs.
Then the coming objects and Trees are PMGs (That's why they turn less detailed (PMG double&quadruple width) when they aproach the Panel).
And there's also a PMG or two on theTunnels.


This cannot be done on a Racinng game because the cars have resolution and pixelization are not single colour blocks like the Balls, The Pillars and that Trees at Elektraglide.


Things would do well in gr. 7 mode :D
I'd like to see Test Drive using that mode. PM Overlay still manages the single scanline resolution....

Edited by emkay, Fri Jul 6, 2012 2:04 PM.


#13 macgoo OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 6, 2012 2:17 PM

OK well how does Pole Position do it then? Was Pitstop II released on the Atari? (I only remember it on the Apple and C= machines but Epyx did do Atari conversions of their games around that time)

#14 Stephen OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 6, 2012 2:28 PM

OK well how does Pole Position do it then? Was Pitstop II released on the Atari? (I only remember it on the Apple and C= machines but Epyx did do Atari conversions of their games around that time)

Yeah - I thought it was a pretty good game, but I had never seen the C64 version. Wow - twice the framerate and a MUCH better pitstop presentation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG_iqBPDgjE

#15 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:46 AM


OK well how does Pole Position do it then? Was Pitstop II released on the Atari? (I only remember it on the Apple and C= machines but Epyx did do Atari conversions of their games around that time)

Yeah - I thought it was a pretty good game, but I had never seen the C64 version. Wow - twice the framerate and a MUCH better pitstop presentation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG_iqBPDgjE

Hi, me again and back on this topic...
From this 'photo/video picture' of you Tube PITSTOP 2 it seems:
-> PFs Green, Black and White (are Red the 4th colour or it is White/DLI/Red/DLI/White/DLI/... and so on?)
But then how they get the two cars colours?

One thing I think I get:Middle part of all the cars (all cars work like this) Oring (Multicolour PMG) guys Head and you'll always get in all cars the the top and Bottom part of the acrs Yellow.
But then, the width of the car would waste all Players in a single car...

And more:-> From where comes the Black and Blue of the Tires?



But I also return with this one because I remembered SEED ACE and that it was all in 4colours Bitmap with...
If they get the Road like this then with the 4PMGs that aren't used something like CYCLES, even GRAND PRIX,... could be possible just using the SPEED ACE code and add one Player on each Moto...
How they did this on speed Ace'? Isn't the Road turns like Elektraglide or Pole Position LMS horizontal scrolling each scanline?

speed_ace.gif

Edited by José Pereira, Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:56 AM.


#16 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:06 AM

But I also return with this one because I remembered SEED ACE and that it was all in 4colours Bitmap with...
If they get the Road like this then with the 4PMGs that aren't used something like CYCLES, even GRAND PRIX,... could be possible just using the SPEED ACE code and add one Player on each Moto...
How they did this on speed Ace'? Isn't the Road turns like Elektraglide or Pole Position LMS horizontal scrolling each scanline?
speed_ace.gif

Ooops, i think I know why they didn't use any PMGs.It's because they used all 4Players quadruple width as Black on the Left and Right side on the Borders to get the screen more 'centered/looking better with the "SPEED ACE" letters Logo. But for other games you can have the Green of the grass as BACKGROUND colour Register and go into 48bytes wide Mode leaving the 4 PMGs free to colour the Motos/Cars...

#17 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:13 AM

Just a little bit strange/out of topic:

If you want to have the Road one colour and the Wheels other what colours would you use?
Black/Darkest Gray on Road and a lighter Gray on the Wheels or the Inverse?

Edited by José Pereira, Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:13 AM.


#18 Yautja OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:10 PM

Just a little bit strange/out of topic:

If you want to have the Road one colour and the Wheels other what colours would you use?
Black/Darkest Gray on Road and a lighter Gray on the Wheels or the Inverse?



IMHO,
Road: Black
Wheels: Lighter gray

Regards,

- Y -

#19 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:08 AM



OK well how does Pole Position do it then? Was Pitstop II released on the Atari? (I only remember it on the Apple and C= machines but Epyx did do Atari conversions of their games around that time)

Yeah - I thought it was a pretty good game, but I had never seen the C64 version. Wow - twice the framerate and a MUCH better pitstop presentation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG_iqBPDgjE

Pitstop 2 is really BAD on A8 because the cars don't turn, for example but the cars colouring and you still have colours for the Road and the side Panel give me the idea that it maybe a way to go for an Accolade's G.P. Circuit but still can't figure how they get the cars because if they are just PMGs.
They would had wasted all 4PMG in just one car and still no Black/Blue on the Wheels.How they get the second car?
(sometimes I feel that is some flicker at some scanlines (or the other car 'disappear'/vertical move char boundaries, is there any?)
How's the distribution of the PFs? 5colours and ANTIC4 Mode?
(Green, White, Red, Gray and Brownish ofthe Panel)

Anyone can help?
Thanks.

Edited by José Pereira, Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:50 AM.


#20 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:28 AM




OK well how does Pole Position do it then? Was Pitstop II released on the Atari? (I only remember it on the Apple and C= machines but Epyx did do Atari conversions of their games around that time)

Yeah - I thought it was a pretty good game, but I had never seen the C64 version. Wow - twice the framerate and a MUCH better pitstop presentation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG_iqBPDgjE

Pitstop 2 is really BAD on A8 because the cars don't turn, for example but the cars colouring and you still have colours for the Road and the side Panel give me the idea that it maybe a way to go for an Accolade's G.P. Circuit but still can't figure how they get the cars because if they are just PMGs.
They would had wasted all 4PMG in just one car and still no Black/Blue on the Wheels.How they get the second car?
(sometimes I feel that is some flicker at some scanlines (or the other car 'disappear'/vertical move char boundaries, is there any?)
How's the distribution of the PFs? 5colours and ANTIC4 Mode?
(Green, White, Red, Gray and Brownish ofthe Panel)

Anyone can help?
Thanks.


:-o
I know I am upset a little bit but...
Please, anyone knows the technical details about PITSTOP 2 and how they get the 2 cars?
Because of the Brown side Panels it seems it is in 5colours ANTIC4 but then there's the 2 cars.
I normally get things like 'How, Gfxs Mode, PRIOR, Oring, Sprites,...' but I simply can't get here how the two cars are possible.
Even if only one use two Multicolour PMGs. and I still can't figure how to get the Black and Blue Wheels because they are outside the A8's PMGs width and Black and Dark Blue.
:?

Edited by José Pereira, Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:31 AM.


#21 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:54 AM

I think that I finally discouver how:
The Yellowish Bar at the middle of the cars are always same colour in all of them and the same as the side Panels then I think it is, for sure, PF3/5th Player Missiles expanded quadruple width because it's simply a Bar.
And I think it may work like this:
-> P0: Bottom Left wheel (DLI/offset for the Top one)
-> P1: Bottom Right Wheel (DLI/Offset for the Top one)
-> Missiles/5th Player: That Middle cars Bar
-> P2 and P3 it's main colour of the cars
(in the side of the Bar 'DLI P2 offset two pixels to the Left' and P3 'DLI offset 2pixels to right')
MORE:
(Top of the car again DLI and 'P2 guy's Helmet' and 'P3 double width center of the car colour'(less GPRIOR goes under P2_Helmet and P0&P1_Wheels).

Then it, for sure, quickly get the other car out of screen/flicker when it is at the bottom on the same scanline(s) as our car.




Is it this?pitstop_ii.png

Edited by José Pereira, Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:07 AM.


#22 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:54 AM

Just some screens of Acollade's G.P. CIRCUIT if anyone is interested:
GP A8 _ some of the first some screens.PNG
(Left A8 version and Right C64 version)
(The Loading screen with the vertical Bar it's prepared to be used during Loading withou tany DLIs, just GR.8 Bitmap Mode and one of each of the PMGs)
One screen with NTSC GTIA Artifacting:
GP on A8 _ Classificaçoes with NTSC GTIA Artifacting.png


And using all the PMGs. for the Car like C64/PITSTOP 2 on A8 we would need all 4PMG for each ecar.
And you start at top with just 2Players then the size of the car will increase and you will end at the bottom with the car largest size wasting all 4PMGs and at least the center of the car needing 2Players Multicolour at double width:
GP A8 _ PMGs try 1st_32bytes wide.png GP A8 _ PMGs try 1st_40bytes wide.png GP A8 _ PMGs try 1st.png
(32,40 and 48bytes wide (also Black (0,0) or Dark Gray (0,4) for the Road but probably better the middle of the two (0,2)))

It is:
-> Left and Right: PM0 and PM1 Normal width
-> Center: P2&P3 Double width (Missiles Normal width may get some pixels better, but at the bottom/large wide you will need the all, Players+Missiles side by side)


Now the problem it's to have at least a second car...
How? Flicker?

Edited by José Pereira, Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:26 AM.


#23 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:53 AM

O.k., for example, Super Cycle kind of Speed Ace on A8 but with Hardware sprites on C64.

Starting with a Bitmap Mode GR.15 in 4colours and scroll/LMS each scanline (like in Pole Position,...) with these colours:
-> BACKR.- Darkest gray/Black
-> PF0: Green
-> PF1: White
-> PF2: Red/DLI/other colours/DLI/Red/and so on...
(with these PF2 DLIs you can have Panels and other gfxs on the sides)

Now use 1+1 PMG Multicolour for each Moto and you could have two in each line.
Multiplex them and you have lots on screen... but when more than 2Motos and in Bitmap GR.15 would the flicker be to noticeable?
(Like Ripper Demo, Crownland,... or there are even ways of have more by scanline as GR.15 doesn't have the 'BadLines'?)

And I think that like this we can think of Hang-On or even Buggy Boy or Enduro Race (but these two would probably need/waste all the 2 A8 Multicolour PMGs just for our Moto/Buggy...)

Attached Thumbnails

  • SUPER CYCLE typ8 screen _ 1.png

Edited by José Pereira, Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:54 AM.


#24 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:13 AM

"-> PF2: Red/DLI/other colours/DLI/Red/and so on...
(with these PF2 DLIs you can have Panels and other gfxs on the sides)"

AND

"Bitmap Mode GR.15 in 4colours and scroll/LMS each scanline (like in Pole Position,...)"


But then it would be tricky to have Rocks/Panels,... on the sides?

Edited by José Pereira, Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:14 AM.





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