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Questions...possibilites, opinions on development of retrogames


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After reading a post about a game for the NeoGeo called Fast Striker, a flood of questions came to mind. Now, please don't hammer me for asking these as I generally would like opinions and pros/cons (I'm sure discussions have happened in the past but I couldn't find anything specific under the search function).

 

1. What is the most popular retro gaming system right now?

 

2. How many people would be required to start a development team for that system?

 

3. Working full-time, how long would it take to produce a typical title in a typical genre?

 

4. What kind of profit margin would be required to make such a venture financially possible?

 

5. Given the difficulties, in a perfect world where the team of developers exists and games are ready for purchase, what price point would be acceptable for most retrogamers (how much would you reasonably pay for a game)?

 

Answer these next ones True or False:

 

6. If an idea like this were possible (technically and profitibility) somebody would have done it by now.

 

7. The only way for this to financially viable would require far too much money and retrogamers aren't a large enough (only the most popular platforms could possibly warrant the effort) demographic to support such a venture.

 

8. Much like the music industry, people download games illegally and this would render any attempt at turning a profit on retrogames futile.

 

 

 

These are straight opinions I'm looking for but of course I'd really like to hear those who have industry experience or other knowledge that would be better than, say, mine (being just a retrogamer who loves a few older systems and have no programming experience).

 

 

 

So my answers would go like this:

 

1. NES (for arguments sake)

2. 10?

3 12 months

4. I have no idea!

5. I would be willing to pay $50 for newly developed NES games.

6. True

7. False

8. True

 

I know it seems like homework but I'd really like to read some opinions on this, so thanks for those who decide to participate.

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I admire your initiative, and I have no specific information about this that would make my opinion of much value. However, I doubt any retro system would provide a market large enough to be commercially profitable, as the market for those games dried up at some point in the past, or it wouldn't be retro yet.

 

That is, unless one of these situations developed:

 

1) Suddenly, the market for that retro system has ballooned, for some reason (like 6 billion people had an Atari VCS emulator in their cell phones).

 

2) You have a new technology that would allow you to develop a game much more quickly and simply (maybe better compilers could allow that).

 

3) For some reason, the few people who would pay for a new game would pay huge amounts of money for it (can't think of any reason here).

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1. NES or 2600.

 

2. Only one person is "required" for either of those systems. I think NES development could be reasonably splot between 3-5 people for NES, and 2-3 people for 2600. Any more, and you'll likely see redundancy.

 

3 12 months, 2 years if you've never coded before and have to learn how to design and code at the same time.

 

4. It's just not going to happen. Homebrew games never earn enough profit to be worthwhile. That said, the fewer people on the dev team, the fewer ways you'd have to split the money.

 

5. I'd pay $25 for something "simple" like Tetris, about $40 for something like SMB, and $60 or more for something like Zelda or Metroid... provided they were new games, not hacks.

 

What I'd really love would be to pay about $100 to get a homebrew multicart. If someone made that happen, I'd buy way more homebrews.

 

6. False. Changing technology allows for possibilities today that weren't there 2,5, and 10 years ago.

 

7. False, but it partially depends if you're expecting to support yourself or just start a cool project. I could see it being a viable side business, but you'd have to have some killer games and not expect much in return financially.

 

8. False. I don't think piracy has a huge effect on homebrewing. The reason you don't sell many games is just because the customer base is small, not because someone said "Oh, hell, I'll just play the ROM".

Edited by godslabrat
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There have been lots of discussions about the economics of homebrew development. Check out this thread in the Intellivision forum for one of the better ones, with lots of insights from active homebrew developers and publishers.

 

Yeah, that thread is a good one...I haven't read the more recent developments though, off to do so now.

 

I just wish that I had some programming skills (and creativity, the 'missing ingredient' in many game developers). I'd love to do some stuff on the side just to see what could be done. I'd love to see a group of inventive folks come up with new games for older systems. I sure know I'd pay if the games were good; but therein lies a problem. What I consider good, somebody else might not. So they'd have to make a bunch of different games, just like the developers did then (and do now, but today it's far more specific...especially on consoles). And you'd have to bank on a few successful ones to fund the others. But at least if games were released in limited numbers, that could reduce any losses.

 

It reminds me of that SNES game that has been in development for a while now (some 'superteam' group on facebook, the game is about a couple of evil looking elves throwing cards around as weapons). Something with that kind of vision, but for the VCS or NES (the systems I'm interested in). And not just ports but fully realized titles. That's where the creativity lies, and the challenge. How doesn one come up with something new, fun and replayable? I sure don't know, lol! I just know what I like.

 

Thanks to those who replied, or are thinking about it!

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I can't answer the questions because I have no real experience in the homebrew world, though I would say that the Vectrex seems to have as good as or even a more robust homebrew scene than the 2600.

 

As much as I hate the way it played out I'd say that the 2600 Star Castle Kickstarter example is a way to do this that you might not have considered. You can set a money goal that can, if you feel like it, include development costs. You don't reach the goal, you don't move on it but it would seem that people would expect something soon so you'd almost have to have been working on the game before getting the money. But you could set up pricing and availability that way that would for sure cover your costs. What I didn't like about the Star Castle example was that the guy got waaay more money than he was asking for but didn't allow for extra carts to be made for purchase. So someone like say, me, who didn't hear about it until a week later, was S.O.L. in terms of getting one even though the guy got plenty of money to produce a few extras and I would have put down for the boxed (most expensive) version. I wouldn't do it that way if you went that route, I'd allow for some of the extra money to either have more examples made or get folded into the next game down the line.

 

I would like to see a Vectrex Kickstarter with tiered pricing for cart only, cart + manual and cart + manual + box + overlay. Since boxes and overlays are the biggest pains they'd make that 3rd level the most expensive. It would be obvious how many of each were being asked for and the pricing would cover that + maybe some extra for the effort. If it exceeded the total then some extras could be made for after-the-fact sales. Maybe after 2 or 3 of those you make a name for yourself and don't need Kickstarter anymore.

 

Also, pricing depends on what you're making. If it's a popular "Why wasn't this game ever made for the [fill in the blank]?" port then you could probably charge more than for your own unique idea that might not resonate with potential customers. I'm thinking of a Halo or Boulder Dash for the 2600 or a Warrior for the Vectrex or a Moon Cresta for the 7800 as opposed to a game that might be really cool but nobody can wrap his head around your description, you'd have to already have them made so people could see a YouTube video of gameplay or something. Along with that, if you go the full monty with boxes and screen overlays (Vectrex) or controller overlays (5200, Intellivision) then you could charge more for that "completeness" as well.

 

There's also the possibility of teaming with others who already exist. Marc on this forum offers boxes for some games (which I've bought and really like), maybe he could be convinced to make them separately for your games and whoever bought your carts would be told to contact him for any box needs. And omeganu makes overlays for Vectrex games that are pretty good compared to the originals and he also makes overlays for homebrew games that never had them, you could supply him with the image and be done with it from your end. Actually I hope more homebrew programmers do that, I think it's best when you can have the option of compiling a complete homebrew game as opposed to just having a downloaded file to run on an emulator.

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I can't answer the questions because I have no real experience in the homebrew world, though I would say that the Vectrex seems to have as good as or even a more robust homebrew scene than the 2600.

 

As much as I hate the way it played out I'd say that the 2600 Star Castle Kickstarter example is a way to do this that you might not have considered. You can set a money goal that can, if you feel like it, include development costs. You don't reach the goal, you don't move on it but it would seem that people would expect something soon so you'd almost have to have been working on the game before getting the money. But you could set up pricing and availability that way that would for sure cover your costs. What I didn't like about the Star Castle example was that the guy got waaay more money than he was asking for but didn't allow for extra carts to be made for purchase. So someone like say, me, who didn't hear about it until a week later, was S.O.L. in terms of getting one even though the guy got plenty of money to produce a few extras and I would have put down for the boxed (most expensive) version. I wouldn't do it that way if you went that route, I'd allow for some of the extra money to either have more examples made or get folded into the next game down the line.

 

I would like to see a Vectrex Kickstarter with tiered pricing for cart only, cart + manual and cart + manual + box + overlay. Since boxes and overlays are the biggest pains they'd make that 3rd level the most expensive. It would be obvious how many of each were being asked for and the pricing would cover that + maybe some extra for the effort. If it exceeded the total then some extras could be made for after-the-fact sales. Maybe after 2 or 3 of those you make a name for yourself and don't need Kickstarter anymore.

 

Also, pricing depends on what you're making. If it's a popular "Why wasn't this game ever made for the [fill in the blank]?" port then you could probably charge more than for your own unique idea that might not resonate with potential customers. I'm thinking of a Halo or Boulder Dash for the 2600 or a Warrior for the Vectrex or a Moon Cresta for the 7800 as opposed to a game that might be really cool but nobody can wrap his head around your description, you'd have to already have them made so people could see a YouTube video of gameplay or something. Along with that, if you go the full monty with boxes and screen overlays (Vectrex) or controller overlays (5200, Intellivision) then you could charge more for that "completeness" as well.

 

There's also the possibility of teaming with others who already exist. Marc on this forum offers boxes for some games (which I've bought and really like), maybe he could be convinced to make them separately for your games and whoever bought your carts would be told to contact him for any box needs. And omeganu makes overlays for Vectrex games that are pretty good compared to the originals and he also makes overlays for homebrew games that never had them, you could supply him with the image and be done with it from your end. Actually I hope more homebrew programmers do that, I think it's best when you can have the option of compiling a complete homebrew game as opposed to just having a downloaded file to run on an emulator.

 

I'd be happy to help however I can. I've perfected (to the patience of the AtariAge community) the process of getting a really useable overlay with vibrant color. The end result is admittedly thinner than an original overlay, but if a collector's item is of no concern to you and a functioning overlay is desired, I've got it down to a science - and the countless paper/plastic cuts to prove it.

 

I'll actually be exhibiting at the Classic Gaming Convention in August in Las Vegas with a small table, no electricity :-/, showcasing a complete Vectrex system, multicart, display kiosk and full set of reproduction overlays for bid.....I'm thinking of doing a "silent auction" style sale of the system and accessories while taking orders for custom overlays "build-to-suit" and discounted for expo attendees if they pay on-site. I just can't afford to pre-print a large stock of overlays to have on hand not knowing what people might want.

 

Keep me posted on whether you want some help!

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1. What is the most popular retro gaming system right now?

That's largely debatable. They're all popular.

 

It seems like the Turbo Grafx-16 is starting to get more recognition than it used to, probably because of the Everdrive release.

 

NES is probably the most popular.

 

This is good, since both of those consoles are similar. These answers will apply to both! :D , and well, just about any old system , really.

 

I have experience with the Turbo Grafx-16 (www.aetherbyte.com). I've been doing this for a few years now. So, I suppose that means I have industry experience. This includes setting up my website, trademarking/copyrighting stuff, and going to conventions to show off my jive to people.

 

There are interviews! and magazine stuff! Yeah!

 

2. How many people would be required to start a development team for that system?

One. Two is preferred. There are two Aetherbytepeople now. It makes life less sucky.

 

You'll need others as well for art/music.

 

I now have an actual artist doing my art. my art in Insanity sucked.

 

I do all my own music/sfx. So, I don't need one of those. I guess there are 3 people at Aetherbyte total.

 

3. Working full-time, how long would it take to produce a typical title in a typical genre?

Full time? It depends on the game.

 

I did Insanity for the PC engine/TG16 in a little under a year, but it's kind of a goofy game. Also, some time was spent writing music software to create chiptunes. If you have a functional tool chain ahead of time, it speeds thing up.

 

RPGs take forever. Don't do them.

 

Arcade-style games are fast. Adventure/Platformers are between the two. 1-2 years is enough time to accomplish most things, if you are going full time...

 

Aetherbyte has taken a few breaks from game making to work on other projects (homemade HuCards, music software for chiptunes...).... but Our latest game has taken about 1.5 years of actual programming effort, and it is just about done now. Should be out by Christmas!

 

 

 

4. What kind of profit margin would be required to make such a venture financially possible?

somewhere between "Hey we broke even!" and "Hey, I can buy a few video games now!". Both of which are also part of "man, we made like, 32 cents an hour on this!"

 

 

5. Given the difficulties, in a perfect world where the team of developers exists and games are ready for purchase, what price point would be acceptable for most retrogamers (how much would you reasonably pay for a game)?

Cartridge based games: 40-50$, Depending on the platform.

CD Based games: 30$

 

This seems fair for all the time spent working on the games. 30$ seemed to work great for Insanity. Some people pissed and moaned, but most people happily paid.

 

6. If an idea like this were possible (technically and profitibility) somebody would have done it by now.

True. There are enough people (like Aetherbyte) doing this now. It's doable. It's just not very profitable. You do make SOME money, but it ain't going to pay the bills.

 

7. The only way for this to financially viable would require far too much money and retrogamers aren't a large enough (only the most popular platforms could possibly warrant the effort) demographic to support such a venture.

False. The upstart fee is 0$. Insanity was done in my spare time between work/school. It cost nothing. Unless you count the candy bars and hotdogs I ate while working on it..

 

It did cost some legal fees (copyright/trademark), and it cost money to press the CDs.... but I covered the CD Pressing via Pre Orders.

 

8. Much like the music industry, people download games illegally and this would render any attempt at turning a profit on retrogames futile.

False. Retrogamers collect this stuff. enough people will actually buy it that the downloaders won't hurt a damn thing.

 

 

 

I do this for fun. I sell the games because the result of that is that Aetherbyte can distribute actual working copies on real hardware. CD-Rs are tacky. I don't do this to make a bunch of money. It's all for fun because I like making games and going and hanging out at conventions to show it off to my fellow dorks.

 

 

I don't suggest anyone ever try profiteering off of retro console homebrew.

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I don't do this to make a bunch of money. It's all for fun because I like making games and going and hanging out at conventions to show it off to my fellow dorks.

 

I don't suggest anyone ever try profiteering off of retro console homebrew.

 

Amen to that!

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I don't do this to make a bunch of money. It's all for fun because I like making games and going and hanging out at conventions to show it off to my fellow dorks.

 

I don't suggest anyone ever try profiteering off of retro console homebrew.

 

Amen to that!

 

Thanks for the reply! Can you further expand on the bolded part above, though? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, but I'd just like to hear the reasoning behind why you feel this way...and you're certainly not alone, by the way, many seem to agree as I've gleaned through other threads.

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There's also a long history of newbies (in this forum and in others) who have never written a line of code coming in and announcing their large-scale retro homebrew companies, and how they're going to make tons and tons of money on the carts, and the merchandising, and how they have plans to do all sorts of things... except they never actually got around to that little step we like to call "making the game". They've put 100% of their planning into how they're going to spend their mad profits, and zero into the actual game. Given how much actual work goes into making a playable (let alone fun!) retrogame, this kind of attitude is extremely jarring to those of us who care about the hobby.

 

I think that's a big part of the difference between "profiting" and "profiteering" on homebrews. You can and should make money on them, but that shouldn't be more imortant than turning out a quality product.

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There's also a long history of newbies (in this forum and in others) who have never written a line of code coming in and announcing their large-scale retro homebrew companies, and how they're going to make tons and tons of money on the carts, and the merchandising, and how they have plans to do all sorts of things... except they never actually got around to that little step we like to call "making the game". They've put 100% of their planning into how they're going to spend their mad profits, and zero into the actual game. Given how much actual work goes into making a playable (let alone fun!) retrogame, this kind of attitude is extremely jarring to those of us who care about the hobby.

 

I think that's a big part of the difference between "profiting" and "profiteering" on homebrews. You can and should make money on them, but that shouldn't be more imortant than turning out a quality product.

 

I hear what you're saying. I think some of the posts above refer to the possibility of myself, personally, trying to make a go of this: I most certainly am not. My aim is to see whether those out there who could, would...and in what way they'd go about it.

 

Making games is difficult, let alone on old hardware. I see nothing wrong with people making a profit on their efforts. I'm not sure I realize the difference between profiteering or profiting, because the term 'profiteering' to me seems like a shady term where people are making money on the sly, using nefarious methods and such.

 

I like old school games. Plenty here do as well. There's a small group of talented people that can actually program games for these systems, but as to the fun factor of the product, who knows? It's the same kind of trial and error you use when purchasing any game during any era. Before I put out the cash, I want to be sure that I'll get what I consider my money's worth from my purchase.

 

People won't develop the kinds of games I'm thinking about for free, that's for sure...and that's where I was going with my questions. Not so much a 'how can it be done', but rather 'CAN it be done' and what it would take to get it done. And to get it fun, of course!

 

From what I've learned over the years, if you want to support your retrogaming hobby, what you need most is patience. Patience beats out cash in hand any day!...lol, just look at some of the projects over the years that have taken a long time to come out and it's easy to understand why: unless you're in it for 'the love', you're not going to quit your day job to provide games for a niche market. That's where the 'could it be done' comes into play. Sadly, without capital behind a project, you're going to have to take what you can get, whenever it gets released.

 

Retrogamers who want 'new' games on old systems have patience in spades...and faith as well. I dig the older games, but a big part of me would love to be able to buy straight-up newly designed games for my fave retro systems (and have done so in the AA Store). The only 'port' I've purchased was Ladybug, which is a great game and for some reason, I just had to have it, lol! Something about getting the hype from the threads, watching the development, waiting for the cart to arrive...all awesome, and it sure would be cool to have that experience more often.

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You shouldn't try to profiteer off retro game homebrew simply because it's not really possible.

 

In the time you spend making a game for an old console, assuming full time, you could go get a real job that pays significantly more.

 

Lets say you make anNES game.

 

It takes you 40 hours a week for a full year to complete it.

 

So, 2080 hours, assuming a 5 day work week.

 

Now, you sell the thing for 30$ a pop.

 

Remember now, this is the old-school world. Lets say you sell 1000 of them. That's a lofty amount.

 

That's 30,000$.

 

14.42$ / hr.

 

Now, subtract how much it cost to get the cart manufactured, including artwork.

 

Factor in paypal fees that you will undoubtedly deal with...

 

factor in the fact you probably didn't work alone and owe other people money...

 

Factor in some lossed/damaged copies from shipping that you need to replace...

 

and you can see, this 14.42$/hr is rapidly becoming less.

 

Also, you don't get paid til you are done. What do you do in the meantime?

 

If you're working full time on a game, you'll kill yourself trying to work another job too just to get by til it's done.

 

 

and besides, <= 14.42$/hr for programming in C/Assembly is AWFUL.

 

If you can do C/ASM, go get a real job, make a ton of money, and make games for fun in your free time.

 

It works.

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Arkhan, I think your last post just shed some light on the reasons why the gaming industry requires one thing above all else: massive amounts of people paying for games! You need a team of guys to program, but often times programmers aren't really the creative force behind the games themselves.

 

In all, it sounds like a helluva lot of WORK...doesn't just sound, but it IS a helluva lotta work!

 

Sure would be great if some really bored, highly skilled folks came together, though. With a bankroll. And a dream, lol.

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Arkhan, I think your last post just shed some light on the reasons why the gaming industry requires one thing above all else: massive amounts of people paying for games! You need a team of guys to program, but often times programmers aren't really the creative force behind the games themselves.

 

In all, it sounds like a helluva lot of WORK...doesn't just sound, but it IS a helluva lotta work!

 

Sure would be great if some really bored, highly skilled folks came together, though. With a bankroll. And a dream, lol.

 

I'm not sure every game takes a "team" of programmers, but developing modern games does include lots of labor-intensive graphics and music and movie-style skills that require grind-stone perfectionism. Retro games normally have simpler graphics, sound, and most of the attention goes into the elegance of the code, which IS A FUN THING to do if you like puzzles and design activities.

 

Remember that many of the VCS games were originally written by one or two people in a few weeks with primitive tools and a much smaller knowledge base and are incredibly fun. A good programmer with better tools and more information should be able to produce new games as good or better in less time.

 

Box art, instructions, marketing, manufacturing, shipping & handling, etc. takes a TON of time, and I wouldn't consider any of that fun (though some people obviously enjoy some of that).

 

Edit: I sure hate having to turn javascript on just to get spaces between my paragraphs...

Edited by fiddlepaddle
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Lets say you make anNES game.

 

It takes you 40 hours a week for a full year to complete it.

 

So, 2080 hours, assuming a 5 day work week.

 

Now, you sell the thing for 30$ a pop.

 

Remember now, this is the old-school world. Lets say you sell 1000 of them. That's a lofty amount.

 

That's 30,000$.

 

14.42$ / hr.

 

Now, subtract how much it cost to get the cart manufactured, including artwork.

 

Factor in paypal fees that you will undoubtedly deal with...

 

factor in the fact you probably didn't work alone and owe other people money...

 

Factor in some lossed/damaged copies from shipping that you need to replace...

 

and you can see, this 14.42$/hr is rapidly becoming less.

 

 

That's why I stick to graphic design and printing of Vectrex overlays...which happen to fit nicely with my day job as a marketing director....nobody wonders why I might have a bright colored Armor Attack overlay on my computer screen at work (shhhhhh!) :)

Edited by omeganu
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If you know how much money you need then you can do the Kickstarter thing. He set it at $10,000 but got $23,946 in pledges. 43 people gave $10 which bought them a download link (no materials cost), 60 people gave $20 which got them a packed CD (minimal cost), 5 people paid $30 minimum for 2 CDs (minimal cost), 13 people paid $100 minimum for a Harmony cart with Star Castle on it ($60 per Harmony + shipping), 115 people gave $100 minumum for a repro clear cart with lights/box/manual (someone can hopefully provide wholesale cost of that combination), 6 people paid 150$ for a custom cart with lights/box/manual (same actual cost though custom code included), 1 person paid $250 minumum for same custom cart with lights/box/manual + phone conversation (same price + phone charge), nobody went for the Executive Producer credit or hand-made prototype options.

 

There's no way that that didn't make money. And there's nothing stopping someone from doing the same Kickstarter more than once for 2nd, 3rd runs that might have updates or changes from the original run.

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There's no way that that didn't make money. And there's nothing stopping someone from doing the same Kickstarter more than once for 2nd, 3rd runs that might have updates or changes from the original run.

When it comes to obtaining crowdfunding for homebrew projects, it's certainly possible to derive certain lessons from the 2600 Star Castle project, but it's dangerous to imagine that any such project listed on Kickstarter can be equally successful. As I mentioned at the time, that project had certain unique qualities which would be impossible for most of us to replicate:

 

I think one of the factors contributing to the success of this project—it's been played up in a lot of the coverage I've seen—is that Mr. Williamson is an Atari alumnus who has undertaken a new game for one of Atari's classic systems. That gives this project more of a novelty factor than an ordinary homebrew project undertaken by an ordinary hobbyist.

 

In addition to that, Star Castle is a recognized property, and although I don't have any firsthand confirmation of this, Williamson seems to have done a good job of covering his legal bases. He was also able to produce his own cartridge boards, shells, and packaging, so he could control all aspects of the production and distribution on his own. When you consider the time and labor that went into all of these aspects of the project, it probably wasn't as "profitable" as its performance on Kickstarter might lead you to believe: as others have pointed out, time is also worth money, even if the developer chooses not to factor it into the total cost.

 

Most of us hobby developers don't have access to the same resources—I'm amazed at the apparent number of homebrewers who don't even have EPROM burners, let alone the skills to design their own boards and shells—nor do we have a stint at Atari on our resumés, or the resources and connections to obtain legal permission to use popular video game properties in our projects. Without these advantages, it would be much more difficult for us to create a project that would generate as much "buzz" on Kickstarter as Star Castle did. As much as we might like to believe otherwise, an anonymous hobbyist producing yet another carbon copy of an old arcade game just isn't going to get much attention.

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There's no way that that didn't make money. And there's nothing stopping someone from doing the same Kickstarter more than once for 2nd, 3rd runs that might have updates or changes from the original run.

When it comes to obtaining crowdfunding for homebrew projects, it's certainly possible to derive certain lessons from the 2600 Star Castle project, but it's dangerous to imagine that any such project listed on Kickstarter can be equally successful. As I mentioned at the time, that project had certain unique qualities which would be impossible for most of us to replicate:

 

I think one of the factors contributing to the success of this project—it's been played up in a lot of the coverage I've seen—is that Mr. Williamson is an Atari alumnus who has undertaken a new game for one of Atari's classic systems. That gives this project more of a novelty factor than an ordinary homebrew project undertaken by an ordinary hobbyist.

 

In addition to that, Star Castle is a recognized property, and although I don't have any firsthand confirmation of this, Williamson seems to have done a good job of covering his legal bases. He was also able to produce his own cartridge boards, shells, and packaging, so he could control all aspects of the production and distribution on his own. When you consider the time and labor that went into all of these aspects of the project, it probably wasn't as "profitable" as its performance on Kickstarter might lead one to believe: as others have pointed out, time is also worth money, even if the developer chooses not to factor it into the cost.

 

Most of us hobby developers don't have access to the same resources—I'm amazed at the apparent number of homebrewers who don't even have EPROM burners, let alone the skills to design their own boards and shells—nor do we have a stint at Atari on our resumés, or the resources and connections to obtain legal permission to use popular video game properties in our projects. Without these advantages, it would be much more difficult for us to create a project that would generate as much "buzz" on Kickstarter as Star Castle did. As much as we might like to believe otherwise, an anonymous hobbyist producing yet another carbon copy of an old arcade game just isn't going to get much attention.

 

Great points made. Lol, after reading it, the thought jumped into my head about Mr W deciding to do MORE games for the VCS, now that he got Star Castle out...a thought, anyway, I should send him a PM about the possibility, lol! I have to admit I didn't pick up a cart during the campaign (the cost was a bit high and if I was going to get the cart, I wanted the box and instructions...I like Star Castle, but not enough to warrant the bucks) but if he got into a habit of releasing games more frequently in the same matter, I'd be definitely interested.

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The other thing to worry about with Kickstarters is, well, when you do that, you've officially committed. Tons of money is on the line.

 

What if you aren't able to deliver for some reason?

 

 

If you're just doing it for fun in your spare time, you can, at any point, just say "Sorry, this isn't working. My hands fell off. Here's a ROM of where I left off. Have fun!", and walk away from everything, no problem.

 

With a Kickstarter, you've just enslaved yourself.

 

Plus, I had a very talented friend do a kickstarter for an arcade paced FPS w/ the Quake 3 engine. It looked beautiful, and he's got industry experience. The thing barely got anywhere. It's all in who you know to get the word out.

 

 

Aetherbyte has 1 Programmer, 1 Programmer/Music Guy (me), and 1 Artist.

 

We're all "designers".

 

We all do this in our spare time for fun, on consoles/computers we enjoy screwing with.

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There's no way that that didn't make money. And there's nothing stopping someone from doing the same Kickstarter more than once for 2nd, 3rd runs that might have updates or changes from the original run.

When it comes to obtaining crowdfunding for homebrew projects, it's certainly possible to derive certain lessons from the 2600 Star Castle project, but it's dangerous to imagine that any such project listed on Kickstarter can be equally successful. As I mentioned at the time, that project had certain unique qualities which would be impossible for most of us to replicate:

 

I think one of the factors contributing to the success of this project—it's been played up in a lot of the coverage I've seen—is that Mr. Williamson is an Atari alumnus who has undertaken a new game for one of Atari's classic systems. That gives this project more of a novelty factor than an ordinary homebrew project undertaken by an ordinary hobbyist.

 

In addition to that, Star Castle is a recognized property, and although I don't have any firsthand confirmation of this, Williamson seems to have done a good job of covering his legal bases. He was also able to produce his own cartridge boards, shells, and packaging, so he could control all aspects of the production and distribution on his own. When you consider the time and labor that went into all of these aspects of the project, it probably wasn't as "profitable" as its performance on Kickstarter might lead you to believe: as others have pointed out, time is also worth money, even if the developer chooses not to factor it into the total cost.

 

Most of us hobby developers don't have access to the same resources—I'm amazed at the apparent number of homebrewers who don't even have EPROM burners, let alone the skills to design their own boards and shells—nor do we have a stint at Atari on our resumés, or the resources and connections to obtain legal permission to use popular video game properties in our projects. Without these advantages, it would be much more difficult for us to create a project that would generate as much "buzz" on Kickstarter as Star Castle did. As much as we might like to believe otherwise, an anonymous hobbyist producing yet another carbon copy of an old arcade game just isn't going to get much attention.

 

I'm not talking about replicating everything that happened with Star Castle. That was what it was, good for him. What I'm saying is that if you can accurately predict your costs (not easy, I know) and build that into the proposal then you can expect a profit and success if you actually get enough money pledged and stick to your budget. And if you don't get enough money pledged, you don't try it, monetary loss averted.

 

I don't think most game fans care if the guy homebrewing the game is an Atari alumnus or not. I certainly don't care and it's not going to make me feel any better about buying the game if it stinks but, oh wow, the guy who wrote it worked at Atari. Outside of that, all homebrews are new games for one of Atari's classic systems (or for the Vectrex or Odyssey 2 or whatever), nobody is making homebrews of stuff previously sold in stores, right? Or homebrews of other previously-made homebrews?

 

I agree about the cart boards and boxes and all the rest. Which is why I suggested the Kickstarter route with costs already factored in. Hey, this is how much it will cost me per game for the physical carts, boxes and manuals and for my time on this. Buy it or don't.

 

There's also the possibility of a Kickstarter proposal to fund a company that could make those very things you say are difficult, to buy the EPROM burners and blank boards and the rest, set up in such a way that successive games are easier to produce since the start-up costs have already been dealt with in the initial Kickstarter. Subsequent proposals would only have to fund supplies and programmer time. Of course I wouldn't suggest this for the talk-is-cheap programmer who won't follow through with finishing the game in the first place because now you're on record and committed to it.

 

I wonder if this is something that an AtariAge or Atari2600 or whatever could raise funds for, a partnership with programmers to supply (for a fee or cut, of course) the boards, cart shells, boxes, manuals, etc., for new homebrew games. Sure, the profit would be less for the programmer but the distribution headaches would also be less. Sort of like online t-shirt makers or magazine printers, here's the idea and artwork, you guys deal with the materials.

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My opinion is that the very reason why Kickstarter works best is because of the commitment; you're all in, once you reach that magic number. In the case of extreme emergency, I'm sure there's a way out of the contract (serious illness, who knows) but that's not really an issue: just refund the money.

 

However, if the developer is a loser, he'll take the money and blow it on hookers n' blow or something. Lol, then whatever he gets as punishment, he deserves, lol!

 

Scott did his Kickstarter the best way: he had a finished product, and only needed the money to fund the actual physical aspects (carts, box, manuals, etc). Had he not done this, I'm certain it would have failed. There's a HUUUUUGE difference in the mind of a buying public of funding something that actually exists and something that's in the development stage. Scott had all his ducks lined up, and obviously his business plan was sound and he's not going to lose his shirt.

 

Ark, I think I saw the previews of the game you were talking about. Yes, the game did look beautiful. I have my own opinions as to why it didn't get anywhere, but they're just thoughts. First and foremost, there are waaaaay too many FPS games out there (this one is a mech game, though, so that's different at least) and the general public can get that itch scratched just about anywhere. Not taking away from it, because it really did look incredible. Perhaps if he ever gets the game finished it might be a different story.

 

My thoughts are kinda counter-intuitive to what Kickstarter is, or its function: is it there to fund ideas, or to put the finishing touches on something that's already near completion? If it were there to fund pipe dreams, there would be every Tom, Dick n' Larry throwing up these fantastic ideas with huge dollar signs to get it going....and they're just gonna be farts in the wind. Used in the way that Scott W did, it's a real engine to push development to the next stage.

 

Also, that's where the designer has a lot to do with credibility and what kind of product you're going to get. As far as I know, if Atari hired him, he's gotta know what he's doing and I trust that he'll do a better job than, say, ME :grin: But that's not to say that there aren't programmers out there who can do better. But to get somebody to part with their hard-earned money over a retrogame, having old-school brand affiliation sure can't hurt.

 

Like I said, patience seems to be THE virtue when it comes to being a retrogamer who like to buy and collect new stuff. There's tons of projects (even here on AA) that are AWESOME...but it'll take a while to get it, sometimes years. Which I suppose ain't so bad, given the alternative. But if money is a problem for these developers, then Kickstarter seems to be a great way to raise that cash.

 

But just make sure you have 'something' first; because just like vapor-ware of the past, people can only dream of something for so long before they eventually move on.

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