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Calling José Pereira! Atari Lotus Challenge II for A8?


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#1 macgoo OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Aug 7, 2012 4:26 PM

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José you make some great posts about conversions :)

I wonder what you make of converting this double wide aspect pixel 160px wide 8 colour game screen I made? :idea:

#2 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Aug 8, 2012 2:58 AM

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José you make some great posts about conversions :)

I wonder what you make of converting this double wide aspect pixel 160px wide 8 colour game screen I made? :idea:

Where's the picture?

#3 macgoo OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Aug 8, 2012 7:21 AM

Strange, I see it in my post and your quote.

http://s18.postimage..._Lotus_2_x2.png

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  • C64 Lotus 2 x2.png


#4 Rybags ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Aug 8, 2012 7:35 AM

The thing is, probably even on Amiga, the colour alternation on the road and grass are via register change which just plain messes with anything else that wants to use those colours, ie - the trees.

I'd love to see a racing game on A8 that at the least has undulating terrain.

So far as an "advanced" racing game in the sense of it being near par to what the 16-bitters had, IMO the best candidates insofar as attainability and being rewarded with a game worth playing would be Lotus 1/2 and Road Blasters.

#5 Poison OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Aug 8, 2012 7:51 AM

José, you did this lotus sreen? Its amazing, its super clear picture structure, nice colours, nice feeling,I love this racing game on Amiga or ST. When I saw this screen first time (now) I cant believe that this is from A8, it looks like ST version. It would be great to have this game on A8 . . . but I think that A8 have not power for it.

#6 Rybags ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Aug 8, 2012 8:00 AM

It's not an A8 pic - in fact I believe it's a mockup originally intended as a C64 proposal.

As a static pic - either machine should be able to do it fine.

#7 sack-c0s OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Aug 8, 2012 8:42 AM

I have some code on the C64 that ought to be able to do a reasonable job of the undulating road. It should port just fine to the A8 too (just need to tweak the C code on the PC that spits it out)

don't know about overlaying everything else on top of it though

Edited by sack-c0s, Wed Aug 8, 2012 8:43 AM.


#8 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Aug 8, 2012 9:29 AM

I have some code on the C64 that ought to be able to do a reasonable job of the undulating road. It should port just fine to the A8 too (just need to tweak the C code on the PC that spits it out)

don't know about overlaying everything else on top of it though


Sack C64 normally run these games (like Turbo charge) in Char-Mode and use the Colour-Map 8colours.
But C64 has 256available chars on each charset and the cars are Hardware sprites.

http://www.atariage....t-c64-colourmap
Could I ever got this using A8 128chars and Multiple charsets and PMG & soft sprites on the cars?

How is it your C64 code? In 4colours (just road and lines?)?

From the other Thread (http://www.atariage....drive-accolade/) and doing simple A8 LMS/Horizontal scrolling each scanline possibilities (like Elektraglide and pole Position,...) then would be possible to have CPU to have the cars as soft sprites with PMGs colouring them?



Rybags when you were helping on Out Run how the main programmer was thinking about the Road?
From the videos it seems that it is ANTIC4 (and there's, probably, be the problem he was having on the road turns...) or it isn't?
And the Ferrari isn't a soft sprite with PMGs (and then how he intends to put on screen the other cars/trucks?
(I know you abandoned the colaboration because you was thinking in doing things different, if I am remember it right?



P.s.- Out of topic but anyone knows the Out Run programmer and if he's still working on it after all the Sal...?
Poison nice to see you here again. No that is a picture macgoo did for me to see how would I think it could look/go on A8.

Edited by José Pereira, Wed Aug 8, 2012 9:34 AM.


#9 Rybags ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Aug 8, 2012 9:41 AM

The ideas I had for Outrun I don't think were implemented.

My suggestion for it was to use VScrol tricks to make shorter characters which can us cheap scaling effects in such a game.

There's various ways racing games can be done on the old 8-bitters. Another one I've thought about is to use 3D raycasting techniques. Such an engine could allow for more realism since the car could have freedom of movement rather than being always on or adjacent to the road and always pointing looking in the right direction.

#10 macgoo OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Aug 8, 2012 12:44 PM

José, you did this lotus sreen? Its amazing, its super clear picture structure, nice colours, nice feeling,I love this racing game on Amiga or ST. When I saw this screen first time (now) I cant believe that this is from A8, it looks like ST version. It would be great to have this game on A8 . . . but I think that A8 have not power for it.


No, I did this screen based on abilities of another machine at 160x200 rez :)

#11 macgoo OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Aug 8, 2012 3:11 PM

The thing is, probably even on Amiga, the colour alternation on the road and grass are via register change which just plain messes with anything else that wants to use those colours, ie - the trees.

I'd love to see a racing game on A8 that at the least has undulating terrain.

So far as an "advanced" racing game in the sense of it being near par to what the 16-bitters had, IMO the best candidates insofar as attainability and being rewarded with a game worth playing would be Lotus 1/2 and Road Blasters.


The road is 1 background of green + 1 free chosen colour of grey. Trees and rocks are 2 global multicolour colours and 1 free colour per 4x8 char block (eg tree is green brown and black with transparent/background for 4th in pic). Sky could be blue background (saves CPU time blocking out colour 1 and allows trees to cover sky) which a raster changes it to green at horizon. The background colour fixed unless you limit UDG chars too just 64.

Clouds = sprites x8, all multiplexed at blue/green sky horizon split for re-use by the cars. If you made it a rally game with no cars to overtake you can have the car sprite as is.

Speed is the issue. Maybe 25-30% of Amiga or 33-40% of ST Lotus II speed at worst :)

#12 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 9, 2012 9:47 AM

O.k. let's go with this one...
And I think that you don't need a 65816 to get it ;) :


For C64 (not need to be exactly copy of Lotus 2 because many roads and mountains, buildings,... can be done using this idea).
LOTUS II for C64.PNG

Use normal C64 Char-Mode colourMap

ABOUT COLOURS:
-> (00) Background Using Rasters or what you call it (here on A8 we call it DLIs)
(Terrain and Sky)
-> Two C64 colours that are in all chars: Dark Gray and Brown
-> Then use the 8 c64 Colour-Map colours like White, Yellow, Red, Cyan,...
(White on the Road lines because the Green, Yellow or anything on the sides terrain Objects/Gfxs aren't in the White Road lines)
(Trees or any other object use the common chars colours Dark Gray, Brown and the two Terrain colours that dithered with the ColourMap colour (here it's Yellow just as an example) would look good and you don't notice the different scanlines (like here the two Greens)
(You can have Trees, then Rocks, then Buildings, then... like it's common for this type games on the C64...)
(Don't use two Grays on the Road and you have the same colour to put on all the sides gfxs (the feeling of speed is done by the sides Terrain scanlines))


SKY it's (00) and no need to waste there any other gfxs/bit-pairs.
Instead of chars gfxs use the C64 sprites in Multicolour or even a large horizontal expanded overlaying by Hi-Priority sprite)
In this one, the Clouds can be in different groups/scanlines as different sprites like:
-> 1 Cloud be 5sprites (60pixels wide) then another one only 2 (24pixels) and a small one with only 12pixels on the same scanlines.
(Clouds with the 3 Grays of the C64 pallete)
-> Then on other scanlines and at different xPos you repeat the same sprites
(same data but Muultiplex the sprites at different scanlines)
-> PRIORITY: As the sky it's just (00) and the Trees or any other side's gfxs no need to have interactions between them and the sky
And also: all the sprites move Priority over (00) Blue Sky but under all the other bit-pairs (01), (10) and (11) that that are the gfxs of the Road sides.





ABOUT CARS:
-> Use Multicolour c64 sprites with the 2 common colours as Black and Light Gray.
-> Eachone Car's colour as each independant C64 sprites colour.
-> Then each Car use expanded tall sprites

-> Our car it's static at the bottom of the Road and it is 3sprites wide then the Enemy car passing on it's side (one each time) it's more 3 sprites leaving you with 2sprites free (can be other car touch you up but because higher scanlines it's less wide)








OFF TOPIC (to you): Would like to see a BBC version possible (even lots of Multiloads) using their only 8colours of this type of games...
Just the screen would cost 16Kb on this Gfxs mode. but probably something could be done (like going into 32bytes screen width):
LOTUS II for BBC.PNG

About A8 I am still waiting to have some answers to my questions (that I thought the out-Run release could answered but sadly I think we will never have it).
Is it because of lack of time or that it's so tricky, or is it that we don't have so many and so best programming guys that A8 never have this type of games (even today just as an Hobby...).
Still don't see why and why it seems that everytime I try to re-start this Road/Cars/Motos games Topics there aren't not many people replying...

Edited by José Pereira, Thu Aug 9, 2012 9:54 AM.


#13 Mclaneinc OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 9, 2012 9:54 AM

Jose, you finished all these games yet?

I'm still waiting :)

#14 Rybags ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 9, 2012 9:57 AM

Of all the common game types on 8-bitters, probably the hardest ones to get right are front view car games and space shooters, e.g. Pole Position, Star Raiders.

Find top 100 lists for Atari and C64, and others of the era, see how many of both types are in it. And play them a while and honestly tell yourself if the game is actually any good.

#15 Heaven/TQA ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 9, 2012 9:58 AM

the good think regarding Jose is... when I need an idea how to solve something he can explain how. so that's his best job :) see Pacmania.

#16 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 9, 2012 9:59 AM

Jose, you finished all these games yet?

I'm still waiting :)


I never said I will.
I am only trying to get people to have this games translated into A8.


If people on the coding side that contatcts me finish the games and things I did for them you'll have more than a dozen of new games in the last two years.
And the way I waste my time it's my problem...
If I feel that my time of learning coding passed away then it's my decision.

Strange that I am feeling and receiving now some calls from C64 and BBC guys these days.
Never thought in that...
Strange isn't it?

Edited by José Pereira, Thu Aug 9, 2012 10:01 AM.


#17 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 9, 2012 10:00 AM

the good think regarding Jose is... when I need an idea how to solve something he can explain how. so that's his best job :) see Pacmania.


Heaven you've just crucifice yourself in what I was saying on the 'up post' about my games never get into an end :twisted: ...

Edited by José Pereira, Thu Aug 9, 2012 10:02 AM.


#18 Mclaneinc OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 9, 2012 10:17 AM


Jose, you finished all these games yet?

I'm still waiting :)


I never said I will.
I am only trying to get people to have this games translated into A8.


If people on the coding side that contatcts me finish the games and things I did for them you'll have more than a dozen of new games in the last two years.
And the way I waste my time it's my problem...
If I feel that my time of learning coding passed away then it's my decision.

Strange that I am feeling and receiving now some calls from C64 and BBC guys these days.
Never thought in that...
Strange isn't it?


I'm pulling your leg Jose, I know you have never promised anything and I don't think you are wasting your time, if only one of those projects gets taken on and done then its a massive success...

Keep it up...

#19 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 9, 2012 11:08 AM

Heaven/TQA, on Thu Aug 9, 2012 4:58 PM, said:
the good think regarding Jose is... when I need an idea how to solve something he can explain how. so that's his best job :) see Pacmania.


When we re-start it again?
These days we don't need to have the (the lost) Publisher :)...



Mclaneinc
if only one of those projects gets taken on and done then its a massive success...


I have not great expectations but I could finally talked with Gauntman one Month ago about he finish Uwol (lets see if at least this pone) and we made a contract...
It was so close that if he didn't do anything or finish it untill the end of this Month then he will pass all the code so that other(s) can finish it (and probably someone will do/expecting for the end of this August to finish it).
:)

Edited by José Pereira, Thu Aug 9, 2012 11:19 AM.


#20 macgoo OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 9, 2012 3:26 PM

O.k. let's go with this one...
And I think that you don't need a 65816 to get it ;) :


For C64 (not need to be exactly copy of Lotus 2 because many roads and mountains, buildings,... can be done using this idea).
LOTUS II for C64.PNG

Use normal C64 Char-Mode colourMap

ABOUT COLOURS:
-> (00) Background Using Rasters or what you call it (here on A8 we call it DLIs)
(Terrain and Sky)
-> Two C64 colours that are in all chars: Dark Gray and Brown
-> Then use the 8 c64 Colour-Map colours like White, Yellow, Red, Cyan,...
(White on the Road lines because the Green, Yellow or anything on the sides terrain Objects/Gfxs aren't in the White Road lines)
(Trees or any other object use the common chars colours Dark Gray, Brown and the two Terrain colours that dithered with the ColourMap colour (here it's Yellow just as an example) would look good and you don't notice the different scanlines (like here the two Greens)
(You can have Trees, then Rocks, then Buildings, then... like it's common for this type games on the C64...)
(Don't use two Grays on the Road and you have the same colour to put on all the sides gfxs (the feeling of speed is done by the sides Terrain scanlines))


SKY it's (00) and no need to waste there any other gfxs/bit-pairs.
Instead of chars gfxs use the C64 sprites in Multicolour or even a large horizontal expanded overlaying by Hi-Priority sprite)
In this one, the Clouds can be in different groups/scanlines as different sprites like:
-> 1 Cloud be 5sprites (60pixels wide) then another one only 2 (24pixels) and a small one with only 12pixels on the same scanlines.
(Clouds with the 3 Grays of the C64 pallete)
-> Then on other scanlines and at different xPos you repeat the same sprites
(same data but Muultiplex the sprites at different scanlines)
-> PRIORITY: As the sky it's just (00) and the Trees or any other side's gfxs no need to have interactions between them and the sky
And also: all the sprites move Priority over (00) Blue Sky but under all the other bit-pairs (01), (10) and (11) that that are the gfxs of the Road sides.





ABOUT CARS:
-> Use Multicolour c64 sprites with the 2 common colours as Black and Light Gray.
-> Eachone Car's colour as each independant C64 sprites colour.
-> Then each Car use expanded tall sprites

-> Our car it's static at the bottom of the Road and it is 3sprites wide then the Enemy car passing on it's side (one each time) it's more 3 sprites leaving you with 2sprites free (can be other car touch you up but because higher scanlines it's less wide)








OFF TOPIC (to you): Would like to see a BBC version possible (even lots of Multiloads) using their only 8colours of this type of games...
Just the screen would cost 16Kb on this Gfxs mode. but probably something could be done (like going into 32bytes screen width):
LOTUS II for BBC.PNG

About A8 I am still waiting to have some answers to my questions (that I thought the out-Run release could answered but sadly I think we will never have it).
Is it because of lack of time or that it's so tricky, or is it that we don't have so many and so best programming guys that A8 never have this type of games (even today just as an Hobby...).
Still don't see why and why it seems that everytime I try to re-start this Road/Cars/Motos games Topics there aren't not many people replying...


The BBC one looks just like the real thing :D

I chose to do the trees/rocks etc as char graphics for speed and it makes the multiplexing engine much simpler. Sprites can go behind the char graphics and char graphics are fast like on C64 Power Drift. Still with only 1mhz I think it will be maybe 50-33% speed of Atari ST original and maybe 20% speed of NTSC Amiga version of Lotus 2. So as the cars will never go over clouds and trees are not sprites there is no flicker possible due to bad line on multiplexer, and only one single interrupt to achieve the 16 sprites on screen at the switch between blue and green. The road is only one colour, again raster interrupts are used to stripe the grey road on the green background land = green/light green and grey/dark grey.

The car was changed a little, this is now just two sprites expanded from 21 lines to 42 lines. This leaves 6 free sprites, small cars in distance = 1 sprite each, cars overtaking close to you = 2 sprites same as your car. I didn't want to expand any more.

With the colours you give for the cars this will not work, as you need 3 colours including the red lights of car. so you must lose the light grey colour probably. I haven't thought any more about it but Black and red = multi colour 1 and 2 for us. Free colour is 3 for car colour so red green yellow white blue etc. This means you loose the exhaust pipes in grey and block between red lights.

Also there are no mountains on my picture but in ST/Amiga game there is mountains on horizon to scroll left right with chars, this could work but as trees go over sky your multicolour 1 and 2 then must make mountains AND trees AND rocks because trees go over mountain line hmmmm. Rocks must then be black and grey or black brown and grey but still needs tweeking on last draft I drew (attached)

I like your seat colours on A8 better :) I'm not 100% sure still how the A8 colour system works as this is all new to me technically on the Atari, but this is a good idea to try and learn I think.

Clouds are only 2 colours but I can use a third colour still, I am thinking Defender of the Crown C64 clouds from James Sachs :D

Attached Thumbnails

  • C64 Lotus 2- 2x V exp MC sprite car and MC char tree x2.png

Edited by macgoo, Thu Aug 9, 2012 3:28 PM.


#21 Heaven/TQA ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:22 AM

how many chars are used for the road allone?

#22 sack-c0s OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:31 AM

and how far up the screen (in lines) do you think the road would come in a worst-case scenario?

By 'worst-case' I mean higher up the screen

Edited by sack-c0s, Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:31 AM.


#23 Mclaneinc OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:36 AM

I have not great expectations but I could finally talked with Gauntman one Month ago about he finish Uwol (lets see if at least this pone) and we made a contract...
It was so close that if he didn't do anything or finish it untill the end of this Month then he will pass all the code so that other(s) can finish it (and probably someone will do/expecting for the end of this August to finish it).
:)


At the end of the day its all about personal life and free time, in the younger folks there's no real positive to sitting around compiling code and I don't blame them for getting on with enjoying themselves, also I guess all work so time again is lost as is if they have families.

The main thing is you are trying to spur on people to create which deserves a star Jose.

Keep it up and who know, one of these coders might release a cracking game.

#24 macgoo OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:36 AM

and how far up the screen (in lines) do you think the road would come in a worst-case scenario?

By 'worst-case' I mean higher up the screen


I would say for realistic undulation of road horizon could go between 50 and 150px down.

how many chars are used for the road allone?


Depends on the height of screen, also now the car is not three but just two sprites 48h x 42v (21 and vertical expansion) the road looks too wide for car. The white road marks may need looking at too as the road is using last free colour for char grey and Multi color 1 and 2 are black and brown. That's been the snag for me, white lines are important.

#25 sack-c0s OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:42 AM

I'm going to have to refigure my road plotting idea then. I've got an idea about how to do it, but the question is 'will it be fast enough?'

It's happy fun 6502 algorithm time :)




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