Pitfall! for Atari Lynx

[obschan]

Put it this way, if they respond with a yes, I will eat my pants!

I quote it so it stays there when they'll accept !!!

[Cobra Kai]

No chance in hell Activision will approve of this. This is what started all the crap with Jaguar GORF.

[+Gemintronic]

So many good projects have been canned because of well intentioned but naive developers. Freecraft being one of them. David as politely as possible gave the strongest advice on this. It's not a matter of how much money YOU make. It's how much they LOSE (even if just potentially) by allowing you to go forward. IT"S NOT ABOUT WINNING A COURT CASE - IT'S ABOUT BEING ABLE TO AFFORD ONE. Most fans can't and thus should take Mr. Cranes advice.

 

Just to make sure my offer doesn't get washed over I'd like to reiterate that I've got Pitfallesque sprites to donate. Also, I'm sure some of our other AtariAge spriters could help.

 

By personalizing the game assets you make it your own. By keeping the gameplay you pay proper tribute to the original you love.

Edited September 26, 2012 by theloon

[Serblander]

... To be very clear, I have no personal problem with anyone copying my old games to keep them alive in the Classic Gaming space. But my opinion carries no weight with Activision. ...

You had me at "I have no personal problem with anyone copying my old games to keep them alive in the Classic Gaming space." I think i can safely speak for all retro fans when i say that you, Sir, are a fine example of a humble human being. You have made an even greater fan of me, and i do believe, all who just read that. Thank you.

 

... Maybe in the end there will not be a contact available and I am surely not going to lengths to get one. Time will tell.

As i'm in the gaming media in Australia, i could PM you some contact details for Activision. HOWEVER... i am not very hopeful they will reply at all, and if they did, it would be of a negative nature. Over the last few years i have dealt extensively with many publishers but Activision are the only ones who frequently don't even bother sending a reply email back! Not always, but more so than any other publisher (eg: THQ, UBI Soft, Microsoft, Sony, etc). If you really want to head down this path then let me know and we can take it from there. I just wish you the best of luck with your project and would like to say : THANK YOU for what you are trying to do for our community

 

...

My recommendation is to give the character muscles, use an upscale gym as a theme, and change the rewards to barbells and protein shakes. You could call it...

 

...wait for it...

 

Fit Paul!

Hahahahaha... That, Sir, is Genius! If i had a hat on me (or even near me), i would put it on then take it off as a mark of respect! That's classic! lol

[108 Stars]

Second, if you release the rom for free, you have no worries.

 

Just use the real graphics and release it as a free fan project. A lynx remake of the 2600 version isnt going to affect any sales on any other platform.

 

Sorry, but this is ill advice. As Mr Crane stated it doesn't matter if the game is free or affects any sales; the company is REQUIRED to stop such a project if they know of it. There is a chance they won't notice, but that is not a reason to say there's no need to worry.

 

It's LX.NET's head that's in the sling here.

 

I find it quite disturbing that people tell him to go and do it since it's not them who must feat legal troubles.

 

 

This is a gamble, and I don't think anyone should advise LX.NET to test his luck; if he decides so by himself, that's fine, but the danger is real, companies have interfered with similar projects in the past and I don't want to see him get into trouble just so we can get a 1:1 port of Pitfall!.

 

We just have to change graphics and names, and still the gameplay will be intact.

 

 

 

The only way would be a fan license like Silver Lining and Broken Sword 2.5 got; but that's highly unlikely. Because it would cost Activision money.

Activision would pay to make a contract, and they would have to let someone from their company check the game before release. Imagine they just give us the license, we thankfully put in a big thank-you-screen for Activision, use the Pitfall! name etc... and then we put in some child porn or Nazi symbols or whatever.

 

They have to check the game to be sure their trademark and company reputation is not potentially hurt by some jerks misusing their trust. And checking the game takes time, and time is money.

 

They have nothing to gain, but a bit to lose here.

 

Just to make sure my offer doesn't get washed over I'd like to reiterate that I've got Pitfallesque sprites to donate. Also, I'm sure some of our other AtariAge spriters could help.

 

Thanks for the offer, I may look into that; I'vebeen converting the VCS graphics until now. But we must see what way to proceed; if we have to change the graphics anyway, we might also beef them up to match the Lynx capabilities more, in which case the gryphics from your Super Pitfall would probably be too undetailed; yours is a demake after all.

Edited September 26, 2012 by 108 Stars

[GadgetUK]

Sorry but you aren't going to convince me. There are tonnes of fan projects and remakes out there and thats precisely why they dont target very small none profit remakes - its simply not worth pissing off a few dozen people for something that costs the legal dept time to do when they have real legal issues to address.

 

The very worst that will happen is you get a cease and desist order. If you ignore that you then get sued. Let me make this clearer - people are happy to burn or buy games burnt onto EPROM that they often dont own the rights to and no one questions that. Again, how many have ROMs to games they dont physically own (not just Lynx), and how many websites can you download pitfall or any other 2600 / Lynx ROM from, and then compare to say Call of Duty - I mean if you exclude bit torrent sites and usenet, I mean just good old free websites with free public downloads.

 

The very fact that pitfall is freely available on many many ROM sites speaks volumes about what they feel they need to protect - with respect to old platforms.

 

I find it quite disturbing that people tell him to go and do it since it's not them who must feat legal troubles.

 

I honestly dont mind hosting it. If Activision complain, I will write a routine that downscales 2600 offical graphics from the official pitfall 2600 ROM, build an exe to replace the graphics and we will come up with a DIY kit to allow people to make their own from the original 2600.

 

I come back to what I said already, it's an unwritten rule - if its in the PD and you arent making money its overlooked. If you ask nicely you get either no reply or a slap in the face. This is basically what all the fuss was last year about that new law the US was trying to introduce which basically mean you couldnt even publish a screen shot of a game without permission... Thank goodness that didnt go through...

 

Fan work is a huge part of the world and it wouldnt be the same place without it. At the end of the day it doesnt need to be pitfall with pitfall graphics - it is totally his decision. It certainly didnt stop me doing the Ghostbusters remake (nor the people that used the graphics previously for an industry competition and it came 2nd I think - there were hundreds of retro remakes some using identical graphics, others themed on the original, and not one of the entries ever had any legal issue - because it was free and they didnt go waving it in the copyright owners faces), but I certainly wouldnt go waving it in Activision face because the standard legal response will be negative.

Edited September 26, 2012 by GadgetUK

[GadgetUK]

So many good projects have been canned because of well intentioned but naive developers. Freecraft being one of them. David as politely as possible gave the strongest advice on this. It's not a matter of how much money YOU make. It's how much they LOSE (even if just potentially) by allowing you to go forward. IT"S NOT ABOUT WINNING A COURT CASE - IT'S ABOUT BEING ABLE TO AFFORD ONE. Most fans can't and thus should take Mr. Cranes advice.

 

Just to make sure my offer doesn't get washed over I'd like to reiterate that I've got Pitfallesque sprites to donate. Also, I'm sure some of our other AtariAge spriters could help.

 

By personalizing the game assets you make it your own. By keeping the gameplay you pay proper tribute to the original you love.

 

There's a big difference between a current game title and trying to release a free 'clone' of it and remaking a 20+ year old game for a 20+ year old handheld - where all of 50 to 100 people will actually play that ROM on an emulator.

 

World of Warcraft is a flagship product - they make ALL of their money from it and its current, so its just not the same thing - its like comparing apples to cars.

[GadgetUK]

You can already play it online - the official ROM:-

 

http://www.vizzed.com/playonlinegames/game.php?id=4268

 

It's available on other sites as well, I don't see Activision shutting them down and they are available to waaaaayy more people than a Lynx release would be.

[108 Stars]

Did you not read Mr Crane's post?

 

It has nothing to do with profit or how many people will play it; the company has to interfere if they learn of it to not risk their trademark.

 

And just like there are fan projects that went under the radar or were ignored, there are others that did not share that fate. Two Chrono Trigger related projects come to mind. And Streets of Rage Remake.

 

I find it irresponsible to tell someone else to do it based on the fact that many fan projects went unnoticed, whereas we have a statement about the official legal situaton that demands companies to protect their IP.

 

It's great you remade Ghostbusters; it's my favourite Crane-game. I played it a million times. Yet it was your decision to take the risk, and you should not tell someone else to do the same.

[the.golden.ax]

How about the parody angle? You could throw in some kind of funny sprites on it, and make the title screen funny, then put a code in there to unlock the game but not publicly tell anyone, just let people figure it out.

[GadgetUK]

I won't say any more now because clearly we dont see eye to eye. Yes, I read David's post and he's legally correct but in practice the world isn't that way. Activision have done nothing to protect pitfall - it's all over the internet.

 

Again I come back to ROM images - how many do you personally have for games you dont own, and if you say none I simply wont believe you. The very fact that this website hosts the official Lynx ROM images is likely breaking copyright laws - whilst Atari no longer exists the games were very likely licensed to Atari and those licenses wont support the the public distribution that we've all come to expect from old ROMs.

 

It is a grey area and if people want to create problems for you they can - look at ericdelee, from what I can gather he was served a cease and desist from Hasbro because someone on here didnt like that he was distributing the game. So yes, there are risk and from reading some of the posts on here its clear that people are happy to bend the rules one way and not in others. Its a 20+ year old game, potentially free for a 20 year old platform.

 

The simple solution with no risks is to base it on dummy images, and as I already stated I will write a patch routine to rip the official 2600 images, resize and re-palettize them and inject them into the ROM, then people can 'make their own' from whats already in the PD. It's not breaking any law to release a program that patches something from copyrighted material, provided the copyrighted material isnt distributed with it.

Edited September 26, 2012 by GadgetUK

[+Gemintronic]

How about the parody angle? You could throw in some kind of funny sprites on it, and make the title screen funny, then put a code in there to unlock the game but not publicly tell anyone, just let people figure it out.

 

I'd personally love to see a Custer's Revenge/Pitfall mash-up

 

That being said, parody law is complicated:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parody#United_States

 

It seems you can't use Pitfall as a medium to be funny about something else. In effect, LX would have to mock the very game he is paying tribute to.

[Atari_afternoon]

I can "help" you by suggesting some colourful nonsense alternative name suggestions

 

EDIT How about "Lynxfall"?

Edited September 26, 2012 by Atari_afternoon

[GadgetUK]

Here's another interesting question. If I get back on with my idea to produce a recompiler which allows NES, C64 or Intellivision / other ROM images to be compiled for the Lynx - what do you think about that? Technically its breaking no laws, but the very fact of people using it means they would be breaking copyright laws - unless they own the original cartridge from the source system. Its the same with emulators, every emulator you use is based on the use of illegally obtained ROMs, yet discussions about the use of emulators are accepted by all, why, because they are so popular it has become an unwritten rule that they are acceptable to use, to discuss, to share ROM images for and in most cases the number one reason they are accepted and the very same reason the ROM images on Atari age are free to download - "It's old, no one is making any money from it, no one would even buy it now, its widespread, lets leave it be".

[+Gemintronic]

I can "help" you by suggesting some colourful nonsense alternative name suggestions

 

EDIT How about "Lynxfall"?

 

Pratfall

Hairy Jungle

Pull my Vine

Spank the Alligator

Lubed Logs & Hidden Treasure

[Atari_afternoon]

@ GadgetUK, I thought you didn´t want to say any more to this surely ungrateful side-topic what´s so hard in accepting that "Big names must defend their brands and would easily see themselves forced to forbid hobbyists to do hommages when they use their copyrighted names and characters."? Stupider laws have been made...

Edited September 26, 2012 by Atari_afternoon

[+karri]

Spank the Alligator

 

That's a good one.

[108 Stars]

I prefer pull my vine.

[the.golden.ax]

I prefer pull my vine.

 

Vine Yanker!

[Shawn Jefferson]

The trademarks are things like the name "Pitfall", the character Pitfall Harry and his likeness, the activision name and logo. It doesnt include the gameplay or even the graphics of the game...

[GadgetUK]

Fit Paul is the funniest idea so far. I agree with Shaun. Change the title, change char and other sprites slightly maybe, change palette and worry no more.

[Serblander]

Fit Paul is the funniest idea so far. ...

Absolutely!!

[KevinMos3]

I was thinking... if you're going to change the graphics, would you fancy it up a bit? If it's no longer going to be an exact replica, that sounds like a good excuse to add some background graphics and enhance other things -- sort of like a combination of the 5200 and Colecovision versions with your own changes thrown in to make it a really unique and gorgeous jungle venture.

[108 Stars]

I was thinking... if you're going to change the graphics, would you fancy it up a bit? If it's no longer going to be an exact replica, that sounds like a good excuse to add some background graphics and enhance other things -- sort of like a combination of the 5200 and Colecovision versions with your own changes thrown in to make it a really unique and gorgeous jungle venture.

 

Exactly that is what I'm expecting we will do. Only thing is that if it's up to me I'll want to make it look much better than Colecovision/5200 graphics.

[Emehr]

While I'm a bit partial to my redundantly redundant suggestion of "Pit-hole", I must concede that "Fit Paul" is both hilarious and offers an exciting opportunity for some new graphics. I can imagine rolling barbells instead of logs, protein shakes instead of gold, and plates of fast food instead of snakes. If there's a "plus" version with enhanced gameplay, I can imagine a "roid rage" power up that makes Fit Paul invincible.