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What would you expect from a new ColecoVision console?


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Poll: What would you expect from a new ColecoVision console? (80 member(s) have cast votes)

What would you expect from a new ColecoVision console?

  1. I would like it to be just the same as the original ColecoVision, albeit with better A/V outputs (18 votes [22.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.50%

  2. I would like it to include some minor improvements over the original, closer to NES/SMS capabilities (16 votes [20.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

  3. I would like it to be a major improvement, closer to 16-bits capabilities (17 votes [21.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.25%

  4. Same as the original ColecoVision but with the SGM functionality added to it (29 votes [36.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.25%

How much would you be willing to pay for a new ColecoVision?

  1. 100 bucks maximum (15 votes [18.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.75%

  2. $150 maximum (31 votes [38.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.75%

  3. $200 maximum (19 votes [23.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.75%

  4. Money isn't a problem (15 votes [18.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.75%

Would you be happy with a new ColecoVision board that works as a replacement board for existing CVs if that helps to reduce the final price?

  1. Yes, I would be happy with that (38 votes [47.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.50%

  2. No, I prefer a brand new case even if that means paying a bit more (42 votes [52.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 52.50%

In case you voted for an improved CV, which features would you like to see added? (remember that each feature adds to price, so choose wisely)

  1. Improved graphics (51 votes [23.61%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.61%

  2. Improved sound (46 votes [21.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.30%

  3. Be capable of improving existing games, like keep high scores, tune color palette, cheats, etc (40 votes [18.52%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.52%

  4. Be able to run games from a SD card (46 votes [21.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.30%

  5. Being able to connect a keyboard for computer capabilities (13 votes [6.02%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.02%

  6. Be able to play over the Internet (20 votes [9.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.26%

In case you voted for a new case, how would you like it to look?

  1. Like the original (52 votes [65.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 65.00%

  2. Something totally new (28 votes [35.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.00%

In case you voted for an improved ColecoVision, which kind of games would you like to see released for it?

  1. Arcade ports from the golden age (1979-1983) (61 votes [20.40%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.40%

  2. Arcade ports from the late 80s (1984-1989) (58 votes [19.40%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.40%

  3. 100% original games (50 votes [16.72%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.72%

  4. Popular games from other post-crash systems, like Castlevania, Zelda, etc (39 votes [13.04%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.04%

  5. Sequels for ColecoVision games (49 votes [16.39%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.39%

  6. Improved versions of classic games from pre-crash systems, like River Raid, Enduro, Yar's Revenge, etc (42 votes [14.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.05%

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#1 opcode OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 2:09 PM

I learned a lesson from the SGM project, and it is that you are never going to finish anything unless you set a scope or specs early on, before any actual work starts. Then you stick to your specs.
So in preparation for what is next, I would appreciate some input.

Edited by opcode, Sun Oct 7, 2012 2:12 PM.


#2 ColecoDan OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 2:45 PM

I actually would rather have continued games built for current colecovision rather than divided attention to a new colecovision. Unless you are just talking about making the current colecovision unbreakable in that it won't have all the failures of the current colecovision.

A new colecovision with new specs would divide attention in creating games and be dissapointing that this divided attention could take away from all the great games that could be created on one existing system.

#3 opcode OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 2:58 PM

I actually would rather have continued games built for current colecovision rather than divided attention to a new colecovision. Unless you are just talking about making the current colecovision unbreakable in that it won't have all the failures of the current colecovision.

A new colecovision with new specs would divide attention in creating games and be dissapointing that this divided attention could take away from all the great games that could be created on one existing system.


The ColecoVision suffers from reliability problems more than any other system from its time. I was planning to design a new CV eventually so that we can have a reliable system for the next 30 years. It doesn't mean it needs to have added functionally, it could be an exact clone of the existing CV, but since I am going to the trouble of designing it, I could add more features in case the community is interested.
You made some very good points, and that is the kind of feedback I was looking for.

#4 segagamer99 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 3:12 PM

I think that an all new colecovision would be pretty sweet! ;-) However, there are some issues I would have with that.

It took you(Eduardo) at least 4 years just to make the new sum, which you are still designing(I pre-ordered by the way :) ). Imagine how long it would take just to make a brand new SYSTEM. Keep in mind that this is not an add-on, like the PC Engine CD, but a brand new console, like the PC Engine Duo(I love PCE). This might also distract you from making all of your new awesome ports. Now about the system, I think that it should just combine the system and add-on. The ColecoVision is very historic, do not tamper with the specs. The specs of one system make it unique. Adding ram is excellent, such as CD rom games or system cards for PC Engine, but try not to make a successor. Back in the day, Hudson decided to make an all new PC Engine for NEC. This was called the Supergrafx. It was much more powerful than the original, and came out very early in the PCE's lifetime(PCE came out in 87, supergrafx 89). The supergrafx despite being much better, still failed. The ColecoVision may be done with sales, sure, but the SGM maybe will sell a thousand units, as the current hardcore Coleco fan-base is smaller than other system fan-bases(Coleco only sold 2 million systems, keep in mind). By the time people have both the ColecoVision and SGM, they might not want to buy an all new system with fancier specs, because they are happy with what they have. So, to sum it up, a new system would be very nice, but I say to just combine the system and add-on. But, try and focus on making games right now. I can not afford MSXs and Arcade cabinets(good thing I have an SG-1000), so I highly appreciate what you are doing for the Atari Age community. :)


Well, I wish you best of luck for the future of Coleco Homebrew and I support everything you do for it! ;)

-segagamer99

Edited by segagamer99, Sun Oct 7, 2012 3:15 PM.


#5 jblenkle OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 3:13 PM

Thinking about it, I would like the following for a new CV...

* Built in SGM, or ability to plug in the SGM through an expansion port.
* Similar in design, color and shape, but perhaps more compact.
* New, dependable joypad type controllers.
* Modern A/V ports

Games...
* Backwards compatible with all existing CV games.
* New, original games. Arcade translations that were planned, but never produced. Super games that were planned for the ADAM, but never produced - like Super Gorf - with added levels, better graphics, etc.
* Translations of games for other systems that were never produced for the CV. There are dozens of Atari 2600 games I'd love to see on the CV with improved graphics and sound.

#6 Pixelboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 3:13 PM

What I would like is a replacement board for the CV, which doesn't add anything in terms of specs over the original board. This would help to keep the price as low as possible. However, at the same time, the new board would definately need HDMI output, because it's quickly becoming the norm for modern TVs.

Running games directly from an SD card is an interesting idea, but only if it doesn't add too much to the consumer price of the console. I already own an Atarimax SD cartridge, so I could live without that feature on the console.

The SGM should remain an external module, because a lot of people paid a lot of money to get an SGM, and it would be somewhat like adding insult to injury to make the SGM obsolete by adding its capabilities to the basic console hardware. And I'm sure several people would like to see support for the Expansion Module #1 preserved, by the way.

If there was one new extra feature I could vote for, it would be a third joystick port somewhere on the console, which would provide 5V power through the DB9 connector. That would make it possible to use Atari 2600 paddle controllers on the CV. I don't know if what I'm proposing is even technically possible, but that's where my vote would go.

In terms of future games, you already know what I want: Donkey Kong Arcade, Penguin Adventure, Maze of Galious, a couple of Gradius games (or maybe R-Type), and I definately wouldn't say no to DragonSlayer 4 (a.k.a. Legacy of the Wizard) or King's Valley 2. So it's obvious that I'm personally more interested in MSX ports than original games, and the main reason for this is that porting an existing game is generally an easier and quicker job than coding a brand new game from scratch, which means I usually don't have to wait years and years until the game is finished and released (Pac-Man Collection was a clear exception to that rule, of course, but the SGM now makes porting MSX games much easier). Seing as all your releases have been ports from other machines, Eduardo, I think you and I agree on this topic.

To me, original games (coded from scratch) that are worth buying are new editions of existing franchises like Castlevania, Zelda or Metroid. Games which are "completely" original are usually hit-and-miss, and they don't sell terribly well because people don't automatically trust a homebrewer's talents in game design. On the other hand, today we have YouTube which helps to show what a game is like beyond static screenshots, and that can help generate hype and demand for a completely original game, but still, any original game has a steep hill to climb before it can be put on the same piedestal as well-known commercial franchises.

#7 opcode OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 3:35 PM

Some points I would like to clarify...
The SGM project took 7 years to get finished because I was changing the specs every week. I have all sort of prototypes here, from boards that are almost a full system by itselt, to the completed SGM, which is actually one of the simplest forms of the SGM. That is why I mentioned that for this kind of project to succeed, you must first set your specs in stone. I did that early this year, and we are now very close to getting the final product.
Of course designing a new system can be a lot more complicated than designing a simple expansion device, but still manageable, specially with all experience that I gained during the SGM project.

The other thing is that this poll isn't meant to be a "whatever we get here is going to happen" type of thing. I just want to get a sample of how our community see things in terms of added features and general preferences. Ultimately I reserve the right to make the final decision.

#8 opcode OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 3:42 PM

About the option of having the SGM built in, I think it would be mutually exclusive with having the expansion port. Simple reason, if we offer a built in SGM and at the same time the expansion port, that means someone could plug in an external SGM and we would end with conflicting hardware, since both internal and external SGMs map to the same resources.

Should have asked that above, how important to you is the ability to use the EM#1 and EM#3 (ADAM)?

Edited by opcode, Sun Oct 7, 2012 3:45 PM.


#9 opcode OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 3:55 PM

Ok, I am just throwing in some ideas here to see where we can get....
How does it sound to have some slightly improved video capabilities, like a programmable color palette (instead of the fixed 16 colors), hardware scroll or more sprites in the same scanline with no flickering? Those are things that one can use as an option depending on the game, so a game can adapt depending on the hardware it is running on. For example, if it is a CV1, then we use the fixed color palette, but if it is a CV2, then we set a slightly improved palette and run as usual. Users of the CV2 get some added bonus, but it is still the same game.

#10 Pixelboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 4:36 PM

Ok, I am just throwing in some ideas here to see where we can get....
How does it sound to have some slightly improved video capabilities, like a programmable color palette (instead of the fixed 16 colors), hardware scroll or more sprites in the same scanline with no flickering? Those are things that one can use as an option depending on the game, so a game can adapt depending on the hardware it is running on. For example, if it is a CV1, then we use the fixed color palette, but if it is a CV2, then we set a slightly improved palette and run as usual. Users of the CV2 get some added bonus, but it is still the same game.


This kind of question should actually be reversed, I think. The starting point should be: What video chip should the CV2 use if the original TMS9928 is no longer available in sufficient quantities? If you pick something like the F18A, which offers a LOT more possibilities, the question then becomes: How much of the chosen video chip's technical capabilities should be accessible by the new console hardware and its games?

You could, theoretically, configure the hardware to use the F18A as a straight replacement for the TMS9928, and the end user will never see the difference. Or you can offer some limited access to such things as hardware scroll and unlimited sprites on the same scanline, but those extra features will only be used by new games designed around these features.

If you want my honest opinion, I don't see the point of offering new video capabilities on such an ancient console. What games will use these new capabilities? One or two homebrew games, at most? Certainly not your planned MSX ports, unless the video chip you select for the CV2 is the same chip used in MSX2 machines. Then that changes everything... :)

#11 opcode OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 6:37 PM

I see three practical options in terms of video chip: the TMS9128 (same as the original but requires only two VRAM chips), V9958 or F18A. V9958 is the MSX video chip, we get RGB outputs, color palettes, hardware scroll, more sprites at the same scanline and a few extra video modes that could be used or not. 4 VRAM chips are required (for a total of 128KB). The F18A offer a ton of new features that could be ignored, VGA output and no need for VRAM chips (though you are limited to 16KB). In terms of cost I think the f18A would be the most expensive, as it was sold for $100 or something. TMS9128 and V9958 should be about the same price.

Now, getting HDMI from the TMS or V9958 is very tricky at best, as they both output analog, and HDMI is digital, so a framebuffer would be required and that is expensive. From a FPGA on the other hand should be a lot easier.

#12 sqoon OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 6:52 PM

The SGM should remain an external module, because a lot of people paid a lot of money to get an SGM, and it would be somewhat like adding insult to injury to make the SGM obsolete by adding its capabilities to the basic console hardware.


Only if the SGM is going to remain available for sale. If it is a limited time release, then by all means it should be integrated into the new CV circuitry.

#13 5-11under ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 6:56 PM

Not to squash anyone's plans, but I'm currently debugging rev. 2 of a similar project. Rev. 1 was initially riddled with issues, but I eventually got it working. Besides a few other problems, I had a bunch of data lines reversed (some parts are labelled D1 to D8 instead of the modern D7 to D0 respectively). After I got it working, I converted it to an SG-1000, so it's a big mess now. It also didn't have a cartridge port... just a socket for a game EPROM. There's also no expansion slot, although that could be added, of course. No video, either... just using one of my component PCBs. I have a much smaller PCB laid out for a portable, but decided I should get the bugs out in the larger format before transitioning to SMT parts.
I also laid out one... without video output I should mention (need to add component PCB or something)... that used a 4 layer PCB... that was smaller than a credit card! Probably never make that one, because other items would be required anyway that would increase the size.

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#14 Pixelboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 7:28 PM

Not to squash anyone's plans, but I'm currently debugging rev. 2 of a similar project. Rev. 1 was initially riddled with issues, but I eventually got it working. Besides a few other problems, I had a bunch of data lines reversed (some parts are labelled D1 to D8 instead of the modern D7 to D0 respectively). After I got it working, I converted it to an SG-1000, so it's a big mess now. It also didn't have a cartridge port... just a socket for a game EPROM. There's also no expansion slot, although that could be added, of course. No video, either... just using one of my component PCBs. I have a much smaller PCB laid out for a portable, but decided I should get the bugs out in the larger format before transitioning to SMT parts.
I also laid out one... without video output I should mention (need to add component PCB or something)... that used a 4 layer PCB... that was smaller than a credit card! Probably never make that one, because other items would be required anyway that would increase the size.


So you're actually talking about a new ColecoVision PCB here? You say "no video", but what does that mean exactly? That there's a TMS9928 in your design which outputs to your component PCB? Sorry if this sounds like a silly question, I'm just trying to make sense of your intervention, and I'm no hardware expert.

EDIT: What are the current dimensions of your board, by the way?

Edited by Pixelboy, Sun Oct 7, 2012 7:30 PM.


#15 opcode OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 7:35 PM

Oh well, so I guess I don't need to worry about this anymore. Please don't forget the expansion port... ;)

#16 5-11under ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 7:44 PM

So you're actually talking about a new ColecoVision PCB here? You say "no video", but what does that mean exactly? That there's a TMS9928 in your design which outputs to your component PCB? Sorry if this sounds like a silly question, I'm just trying to make sense of your intervention, and I'm no hardware expert.

EDIT: What are the current dimensions of your board, by the way?

Sorry, I wasn't too clear... yeah, it's got a TMS9928A, but not further circuitry installed yet for RF, composite, component, VGA, or anything like that. It's just a test platform at the moment, so I just connect a component mod kit to it to output component video. I'd like to make a component to VGA converter sometime soon.
The current board is about 5" x 5" (maybe a bit more) using DIP components and a decent amount of space.

#17 5-11under ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 7:45 PM

Oh well, so I guess I don't need to worry about this anymore. Please don't forget the expansion port... ;)

Well, I'm sure there's many who will be happy with you just programming new games, plugging through your large list of planned ports. However, there's still room for more hardware from you, if you'd like. I'm not stopping you, of course! I also have no plans to go much beyond basic CV functionality, with no improvements to video, audio, and whatever else. I'm guessing someday you'd like to delve further into more of those improvements, beyond what the SGM already will provide.

#18 opcode OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 7:55 PM

Well, I'm sure there's many who will be happy with you just programming new games, plugging through your large list of planned ports. However, there's still room for more hardware from you, if you'd like. I'm not stopping you, of course! I also have no plans to go much beyond basic CV functionality, with no improvements to video, audio, and whatever else. I'm guessing someday you'd like to delve further into more of those improvements, beyond what the SGM already will provide.


Or... we could do this together, Harvey. I am pretty sure I could help with some stuff, even if it isn't related to the PCB itself, like getting a case done, packaging, a new BIOS, getting a license from Coleco. Perhaps we could get something done in record time if we work together. I don't know, just offering help. You can contact me if you want, but don't feel obligated to anything,

Edited by opcode, Sun Oct 7, 2012 7:55 PM.


#19 Pixelboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 8:36 PM

Eduardo and Harvey teaming up to make a new CV console... Talk about a dream team! :D :thumbsup:

#20 jblenkle OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 10:18 PM

I do like the Atari 2600 module simply because I don't have an actual 2600 and don't really see any reason to buy one as long as I have something that works just like one. As far as an expansion port on a new ColecoVision...it would be nice to have, but it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me if it didn't.

About the option of having the SGM built in, I think it would be mutually exclusive with having the expansion port. Simple reason, if we offer a built in SGM and at the same time the expansion port, that means someone could plug in an external SGM and we would end with conflicting hardware, since both internal and external SGMs map to the same resources.

Should have asked that above, how important to you is the ability to use the EM#1 and EM#3 (ADAM)?



#21 jblenkle OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 10:38 PM

Just my personal opinion, but I'm not sure how interested I would be in what would basically be a straight CV clone, as you mentioned "I also have no plans to go much beyond basic CV functionality, with no improvements to video, audio, and whatever else."

At the very least I would want it to be enhanced in some way with the ability to play games with better graphics and sound, while also still being compatible with old ColecoVision games. And, of course, it would need a modern A/V hookup. And if we are adding left/right audio, a stereo sound capability would be cool.

Well, I'm sure there's many who will be happy with you just programming new games, plugging through your large list of planned ports. However, there's still room for more hardware from you, if you'd like. I'm not stopping you, of course! I also have no plans to go much beyond basic CV functionality, with no improvements to video, audio, and whatever else. I'm guessing someday you'd like to delve further into more of those improvements, beyond what the SGM already will provide.


Edited by jblenkle, Sun Oct 7, 2012 10:42 PM.


#22 cimerians OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 7, 2012 11:14 PM

My dream machine:

- SGM built in.
- Machine that plays all current CV games off of an SD card with options (Save states for high scores etc) and also supports standard carts.
- Better controller.
- Component or HDMI etc
- Optional: Ability to play better games up to 16bit. This opens up the machine to many people to program for I would think.

Anyway. Just my own thought.

#23 hit_man OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 8, 2012 1:33 AM

Just as long as the controllers are better that will make me happy.

#24 Pixelboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 8, 2012 6:38 AM

My dream machine:

- SGM built in.
- Machine that plays all current CV games off of an SD card with options (Save states for high scores etc) and also supports standard carts.
- Better controller.
- Component or HDMI etc
- Optional: Ability to play better games up to 16bit. This opens up the machine to many people to program for I would think.

Anyway. Just my own thought.


I have to admit, that kind of intervention makes me smile... :)

A console that saves the state of a game like today's emulators do? That's pretty much impossible without making the console a single-chip wonder. An emulator virtually reproduces and controls every component of the machine it's emulating (CPU, graphic chip, sound chip, joystick interface, etc.) so making a save-state file in that context is relatively easy. But in real hardware, you have the CPU which is totally distinct from the graphic and sound chips, and the hardware can't "read" every single state data from every single hardware component at a precise time, unless the hardware is specifically designed to do that, which would make it a very expensive machine. Saving the content of the main RAM, video RAM and CPU registers is not enough to create a valid save-state "file", although admittedly that's a big part of it.

Also, by "ability to play better games up to 16bit", I suppose you mean games with more colorful graphics and better sound than what the regular ColecoVision is capable of? Putting aside the issues of hardware R&D and how expensive the end product would be, who would make games for such a console today, aside from Eduardo? There's already a promising console just around the corner, called the Ouya, which is far, far more powerful than the CV and has a much, much bigger chance of achieving a good level of home market penetration than the CV2 (regardless of its final specs) so homebrew game developers would be best advised to develop their 16-bit-like games on the Ouya rather than the "dream machine" you long for. :)

#25 ten-four OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 8, 2012 7:03 AM

A complete new PCB which could fit into the existing console.

A version with new capabilities like:
On/off - Reset - Pause - LED - Video out - F18A - Bios - RAM - Power supply - SGM.) and so on.

Or a new PCB with all this above, but with the Joystick connections on the front and a new console shell. :)

Edited by ten-four, Mon Oct 8, 2012 7:08 AM.





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