7800 games that should have existed?

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

To clarify why I picked that, back in the mid-80s kids still seemed to have a lot of fun with Combat in circles where I played games. I just imagine that if Atari had given it new paint along with some extras they could have had people stay interested in the concept overall. Much like Nintendo has done with Mario - they have been able to milk that franchise beyond death by adding new features, characters, game modes and so on. Or Adventure II - the concept is still a lot of fun, you give it the right extras handled in an honorable way and it works.

Don't kid yourself. Combat is hardly Mario.

[Lynxpro]

 

It would have been a compilation disc, with a virtual arcade featuring all of the arcade cabinets in 3-D (including the variations/conversions). It would have contained (dug up the documents): Cloak & Dagger (as Agent-X to avoid paying license fee); Major Havoc (first time released on any console); Space Duel (first time released on any console); Gravitar; Red Baron (first time released on any console); Black Widow (first time released on any console); Lunar Lander (I could argue this too first time released on any console), Quantum (first time released on any console); and Star Raiders (yes, the Atari Computer version as a hidden title). From Lucasfilm/Atari, it would have been Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back.

 

11 games in total.

 

And it would have also included the prototype versions of Major Havoc (Alpha 1); Gravitar (Lunar Battle); I also planned a library with photos, advertisements, sell sheets/flyers, operators manuals, and more. So the owners of the actual coin-ops also would have a resource if needed.

 

 

 

 

...and I talk to Jerry almost daily.

 

That's quite a project, Jet-X! Even as a Jaguar partisan, I would've loved to have seen that have happened.

 

I'm guessing the 11th hour part of the project in terms of Atari Corp's involvement must've been when Ted Hoff was trying to transition them to being a software publisher/licensee. He struck me as someone who wasn't willing to bet the farm of the Jaguar or the Jaguar 2. I'm guessing the lawsuit was filed after he resigned/was fired after Sam Tramiel had his heart attack and Jack Tramiel took over trying to squeeze every last dime out of the company before going through with that reverse merger with JTS.

 

Were you at the Sunnyvale Atari Party?

[Lynxpro]

 

That's not illegal. That's called "exclusivity" and it's been around since the Atari days.

 

 

To my knowledge, Atari Inc didn't pull that off on products that were already finished and ready for release for rival platforms. Of course, they had 80% - 90% marketshare during that time so they couldn't do stuff so blatantly back then since they had a de facto [natural] monopoly.

 

Sony and Nintendo both cherry picked titles and kept them from being released for the Jaguar. What really made me really mad about it was Ubisoft's involvement. They mailed out flyers to all of the registered Jaguar owners advertising Rayman [and if I recall, solicited orders] and then thanks to Sony's alleged payment, they sat on the Jaguar version for 1 full year and then released it one week later than the Playstation version which of course made it look weak since it was cartridge-based and the Playstation version was CD based [of course]. Rayman was so beautiful, it would've sold a lot of Jaguars had it been released as originally intended. As far as I'm concerned, Ubisoft committed mail fraud. I wish I would've thought about that back then; I would've filed a complaint with the Postmaster's Mail Fraud Division back then.

 

Similarly, Microsoft later bought Halo's exclusivity by purchasing Bungie, but in fairness, from my understanding, Bungie offered themselves up to Apple and in typical Steve Jobs-hating-video games-since-leaving-Atari fashion, they passed [despite how popular Bungie's Marathon was on Macs].

[Lynxpro]

 

development. In fact, Dan Kramer was doing IIRC the trackball design for Nyko that was eventually released. That's what we would have used along with the Playstation Mouse (and the dual shock controllers). No hybrid adapters were planned.

 

 

 

 

By the way, have you seen the later Trak-Ball controllers Dan [Kramer] designed that still haven't made it to market? I'm referring to the REvolve controller:

 

http://revolvecontroller.com

[Jet-X]

 

 

I'm guessing the 11th hour part of the project in terms of Atari Corp's involvement must've been when Ted Hoff was trying to transition them to being a software publisher/licensee. He struck me as someone who wasn't willing to bet the farm of the Jaguar or the Jaguar 2. I'm guessing the lawsuit was filed after he resigned/was fired after Sam Tramiel had his heart attack and Jack Tramiel took over trying to squeeze every last dime out of the company before going through with that reverse merger with JTS.

 

Were you at the Sunnyvale Atari Party?

 

Wasn't at the Sunnyvale party.

 

I dealt primarily with John Skruch at Atari.

 

 

 

 

Sony and Nintendo both cherry picked titles and kept them from being released for the Jaguar. What really made me really mad about it was Ubisoft's involvement. They mailed out flyers to all of the registered Jaguar owners advertising Rayman [and if I recall, solicited orders] and then thanks to Sony's alleged payment, they sat on the Jaguar version for 1 full year and then released it one week later than the Playstation version which of course made it look weak since it was cartridge-based and the Playstation version was CD based [of course].

 

 

It happens all the time...I could write pages upon pages where this has happened on a multitude of consoles.

 

 

Rayman was so beautiful, it would've sold a lot of Jaguars had it been released as originally intended.

 

Doubtful. Rayman wasn't a killer app, and any game made available on multiple platforms doesn't help. The Jaguar was DOA in my opinion. Developers were intrigued with the idea of an Atari comeback, however, we all knew (myself included) that Atari would never have sustained the likes of Nintendo or Sega, let alone Sony with marketing or support. The Tramiel's history haunted them. And the launch titles (I'm in the minority on this forum I'm sure) were utter crap. That ensured Jaguar was DOA.

 

Those third parties (i.e. those supporting Sega/Nintendo and soon Sony) ported games to hedge their bets, but would never pour any money into an original title. Cartridge also killed the Jaguar, as the manufacturing costs and most importantly, lead time put a hurt on developers and ultimately publishers (with retailers screaming/yelling and cutting orders when games were late). Yes, Nintendo stuck with cartridge, but they were an established player. Oh, I could argue this one for multiple pages too.

 

I did make a play to support the Jaguar by porting one or two of Sony Imagesoft's games to the Jaguar (again, to hedge our bets), but management saw no point in pouring resources into a stillborn console.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Jet-X

[DracIsBack]

I am catching up with this thread but I would have loved to see Rastan for the 7800 as it was my favorite arcade machine at the time. I think the 7800 would have had a very difficult time pulling it off, though, with the parallax scrolling, etc... Even the Rastan Saga game for the Genesis was pretty lame compared to the original coinop. The sprite animation in the coinop is silky-smooth. I have a copy of the SMS Rastan for collector's purposes but have never owned a Master System so I don't know how well it really plays but based on the youtube video, it was pretty awesome considering the coinop was 16-bit and the SMS 8.

 

It's not bad. Doesn't have parallax scrolling and the music isn't as striking, but it's pretty good.

[Lost Dragon]

@Jet-X:Your not the only one with those feelings regarding Jaguar using Cartridge's killed it certain industry figures at the time felt similar:

Ian Hetherington (M.D and devevelopment guru at Psygnosis):

' It's either an over-priced and over-specced cartridge machine or an under-specced CD machine.If you're going to launch a CD machine, you must be committed to the format and make it CD-based from day 1.If Atari wanted to launch a cartridge machine then they should have looked at a pricepoint of £75..if they wanted to launch a CD machine then £250-£300 is fine, but it would have to offer a lot more than this. We've had the machine for about a year and we're not massively impressed, not impressed at all really.If you compare the Jaguar to virtually any of the emerging formats, then i think it would come off second best.'

Others like Konami (Europe), Ocean etc raised (valid) concerns about Atari having the ability (ie money) to market and support the console properly.Seperate thread in it's own right :-)

[Prosystemsearch]

Without the history of the Tramiels,(ie Atari was sold to Philips, Radioshack, or Amstrad) Atari Jaguar might have had more released 3rd p;arty games. If only Warner Communcations weren't so quick to sell just the assets to commodore.

[Andromeda Stardust]

@LynxPro: That trackball game controller looks frikking cool. I would get one if for no other reason than so I won't have dick around with a separate mouse when loading games into emulators. However, a laser controlled trackball using a full size cue (would have to be speckled) for MAME cabs would also be badass.

[Lynxpro]

@LynxPro: That trackball game controller looks frikking cool. I would get one if for no other reason than so I won't have dick around with a separate mouse when loading games into emulators. However, a laser controlled trackball using a full size cue (would have to be speckled) for MAME cabs would also be badass.

 

Stardust, are you referring to the REvolve trackball? It is pretty cool. Too bad the current face on the project apparently "stole" it from Dan Kramer. Supposedly, it still hasn't been patented either even though that was [allegedly] the responsibility [to get it patented] of the guy in the Youtube videos.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

Don't kid yourself. Combat is hardly Mario.

 

I guess reading comprehension isn't your thing. I didn't say it was Mario or its equivalent as a game given it had one outing while Mario has had several dozen and counting. What I said was the concept could have been re-invented in many ways. Mario and many other games have stayed alive because they tried different things. The Combat concept had plenty of room for experimentation and growth. With the right ideas it could have continued to be something but we will never know.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Shaggy the Atarian

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

I guess reading comprehension isn't your thing. I didn't say it was Mario or its equivalent as a game given it had one outing while Mario has had several dozen and counting. What I said was the concept could have been re-invented in many ways. Mario and many other games have stayed alive because they tried different things. The Combat concept had plenty of room for experimentation and growth. With the right ideas it could have continued to be something but we will never know.

No, I read the entire post. Yes, the Combat idea has been expanded upon many times. There are also full blown strategy games like Famicom Wars, etc, but none of those games I would ever consider as classic as Super Mario Brothers. Super Mario Brothers had multiple scrolling worlds and a princess to save, while Combat just has tanks and planes shooting missiles at each other. Even Super Mario's Arcade predecessors Donkey Kong and Original Mario Brothers have far deeper gameplay than Combat. Donkey Kong is arguably the first platformer, or at least the first good platformer, with multiple screens to boot, something few arcade games had ever done. Mario Brothers has deeper gameplay element on the surface, in that much like Joust, in the two player gameplay modes players are free to cooperate or compete with each other.

 

Super Mario Brothers would still be the classic it is today whether or not it generated any sequels or not. Combat is more a bygone artifact of the 1970s rudimentary video game era, starting with PONG. Yes, Mario is in an entirely different league. It practically defined the side-scrolling platform genre with the two button run/jump and later the shoot/jump mechanic.

[Jinks]

Mario should die as the horse has been beaten for decades. In my world saying koopa or making any game where the mention of a princess would result in the death penalty. Thats coming from a guy who has tons of mario crap. I finally lost it after the kids watch the 80s uper mario show after playing mario for hours.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Jinks

[Andromeda Stardust]

Mario should die as the horse has been beaten for decades. In my world saying koopa or making any game where the mention of a princess would result in the death penalty. That's coming from a guy who has tons of mario crap. I finally lost it after the kids watch the 80s uper mario show after playing mario for hours.

In my world, death penalty means nothing because 1-ups are plentiful in the Mushroom Kingdom!

 

I also have both seasons of Super Mario Brothers Super Show on DVD (and have watched them all), and lots of plushies too. Grown collector, no kids...

[Prosystemsearch]

Exidy's Chiller, Whodunit, Cheyenne, crackshot, and their Blackjack card lightgun game(the former two would have been great with POKEY).

[Jinks]

In my world, death penalty means nothing because 1-ups are plentiful in the Mushroom Kingdom!

 

I also have both seasons of Super Mario Brothers Super Show on DVD (and have watched them all), and lots of plushies too. Grown collector, no kids...

Well.. maybe u havent watch the shows enough? Swing your arms from side to side. Do the mario!!

[Andromeda Stardust]

Well.. maybe u havent watch the shows enough? Swing your arms from side to side. Do the mario!!

The bad acting is actually quite entertaining in it's own right, also to point out all the stuff the animators got wrong, like swapped palettes for the overalls.

[atarian63]

No, I read the entire post. Yes, the Combat idea has been expanded upon many times. There are also full blown strategy games like Famicom Wars, etc, but none of those games I would ever consider as classic as Super Mario Brothers. Super Mario Brothers had multiple scrolling worlds and a princess to save, while Combat just has tanks and planes shooting missiles at each other. Even Super Mario's Arcade predecessors Donkey Kong and Original Mario Brothers have far deeper gameplay than Combat. Donkey Kong is arguably the first platformer, or at least the first good platformer, with multiple screens to boot, something few arcade games had ever done. Mario Brothers has deeper gameplay element on the surface, in that much like Joust, in the two player gameplay modes players are free to cooperate or compete with each other.

 

Super Mario Brothers would still be the classic it is today whether or not it generated any sequels or not. Combat is more a bygone artifact of the 1970s rudimentary video game era, starting with PONG. Yes, Mario is in an entirely different league. It practically defined the side-scrolling platform genre with the two button run/jump and later the shoot/jump mechanic.

could not disagree more

[Andromeda Stardust]

could not disagree more

Look at my avatar. Let's agree to disagree shall we? Combat is not a bad game, just highly dated.

[Jinks]

Look at my avatar. Let's agree to disagree shall we? Combat is not a bad game, just highly dated.

And so is mario..

[Andromeda Stardust]

And so is mario..

Yes, terribly outdated. Just look at those awful graphics!

[Jinks]

Yes, terribly outdated. Just look at those awful graphics!

Outdated as in overdone... should have stopped at least 10 years ago.

Kinda like making police academy 14. It would have 1080p but be totally lame and outdated ideas over and over.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

No, I read the entire post. Yes, the Combat idea has been expanded upon many times. There are also full blown strategy games like Famicom Wars, etc, but none of those games I would ever consider as classic as Super Mario Brothers. Super Mario Brothers had multiple scrolling worlds and a princess to save, while Combat just has tanks and planes shooting missiles at each other. Even Super Mario's Arcade predecessors Donkey Kong and Original Mario Brothers have far deeper gameplay than Combat. Donkey Kong is arguably the first platformer, or at least the first good platformer, with multiple screens to boot, something few arcade games had ever done. Mario Brothers has deeper gameplay element on the surface, in that much like Joust, in the two player gameplay modes players are free to cooperate or compete with each other.

 

Super Mario Brothers would still be the classic it is today whether or not it generated any sequels or not. Combat is more a bygone artifact of the 1970s rudimentary video game era, starting with PONG. Yes, Mario is in an entirely different league. It practically defined the side-scrolling platform genre with the two button run/jump and later the shoot/jump mechanic.

 

 

My point was that game franchises like Mario have continued on because they continued to innovate. I'm comparing the ideas behind some games causing them to continue on. Combat, no matter how shallow you think the game is, could have found ways to innovate and become something unique worth getting for the 7800. If that wasn't the case, then why was one of the first homebrews for the console Combat 1990? Someone thought it was worth revisiting.

 

Combat was an upgrade to Atari/Kee Games' Tank, which back in 1974 was the top game in the entire video game industry which at that time was flooded with Pong style games. It innovated by adding new types of arenas/vehicles/variations to the game. I hardly would say that it tapped out of ideas after that, unable to innovate further had Atari tried. There was Combat II, which would have included a level editor and other features but it is unknown which fixes/changes a final version might have implemented. Either way since it was a pack-in game for five years, people were familiar with the name (even in 1985 when Atari wasn't doing much of anything, the 2600 still managed to sell 1 million+ units based on its name alone).

 

In our re-done 1986, I would not have preferred a simple graphics upgrade. Combat could have added characters to it and objectives to enhance the arena style play, better fleshing out single player mode. I think they would have helped since that makes a game more relatable than flying/driving a drone. While it could have become a strategy game (which is what Combat 2 was doing by providing tank armor) I think fans would have preferred it sticking its fast-style arcade roots. It could have went to multi-screen or scrolling arenas and with the 7800s sprite capabilities, handled many on screen enemies without running into slowdown/flicker issues that plagued some of Nintendo's games before they started getting comfortable with the mapper chips. Some AI would have went a long way, and given what Atari did do at the time with 7800 games, a co-op/team mode would have been expected. Bosses were all the rage in the mid-80s and for a single/team mode those could have made an appearance. There are various ways one could go about it, essentially re-inventing the idea.

 

Because Atari still had some name capital at the time, something along these lines would have been noticed. Again, I'm not saying it would have necessarily been the sole killer app the 7800 needed, which is why I listed various titles that "should" have existed. But it would have played on something Atarians were familiar with that could have refreshed the concept to not be as 'shallow'.

[Andromeda Stardust]

You make a valid point. Combat could have, would have, should have innovated, but they didn't. Add that to a rap sheet one mile long of ideas Atari failed to cultivate during the next gen consoles (5200 & 7800). Tramiel being a penny pincher likely didn't help the cause much, nor did Atari Games aka Tengen developing unlicensed games for the NES (although many of those games are awesome).

 

Bottom line, Atari failed to innovate. Nintendo did innovate and that is why they are still in the video games business after 30+ years. Atari have been bought and sold, and have subsequently filed bankruptcy so many times at this point it's kicking a dead horse to suggest they would have done different. From 1985 throughout the 90s, Atari was a train wreck that just wouldn't crash. There's still a lot of great stuff for the system, homebrews included, so their efforts weren't all a waste, but we are fooling ourselves if we believe their post-VCS consoles are more than just a footnote in the average retro gamer's conciousness.

[Jinks]

There are countless threads on here about what they could have done. Maybe they should have signed with nintendo but they didnt. The only retro system I play today is the 7800. I never had one when I was young and played the hell outa lots of nes games back in the day so to me its a surprise to find out that atari even made something more powerful than the 2600.

I remember all the flickerness that the nes provided and to play games where things dont disappear and go into a complete zelda like dungeon battle slowdown is very awesome. And after watching the complete playthru of midnight mutants and the boss battle I couldnt agree more that with decent marketing and hardware in carts that nintendo had plus a hundred more games it would have clearly been a better system.

But because that didnt happen in history we have a lot of coulda woulda shoulda on here.

I think thats why the homebrew support is starting to take off as they see the potential and with their accomplishments they can put these could have done issues to rest. Its better late than never.

I like my footnote the best and I guess I am an above average retro gamer.

Maybe its cool to be different?