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time for another xm update?


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#51 swlovinist OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 5:17 AM

Longtime supporter of the XM and will continue to do so. As a person who has waited years for other homebrew projects, I know that this can be very frustrating. I am still waiting for an odyssey homebrew(mentis) as well as some other things. I think that the communication with the project could be a TON better than what is going on. I think that people are fine with waiting as long as there is better/clear communication. I think that some the criticism for the way this project has been handled is merited.

#52 Jinks OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 6:05 AM

I take no offense to any answer to my comments. Yes I know its lots of work for them. Communication is lacking bigtime and had this been done all along without the constant need for whinig on this forum, I would have nothing to say but thank you..

#53 DracIsBack OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 7:26 AM

Personally I couldn't sleep at night if I had taken over $20,000


First it was $15,000. Now it's $20,000. The story keeps growing.

of other people's money and hadn't produced a product for my customers for 3 years.


I ordered mine in November of 2010. 2 years ago. But suddenly, it's 3 years. Again, the story keeps growing.

I certainly wouldn't allow other people to speak for me, like we have here at AA with the 'Cult of Curt' that apologizes for the guy no matter the circumstances, and at the same time insult good members here who have paid real cash money only to be thrown insults, and told to sit down and shut up for asking to be informed of how our investment is coming along.


I happily agree that communication would solve this.

What I don't like is the schoolyard gang up mentality. This is like watching a bunch of gibbons pile on a lion and harass from all sides.

"Well he's doing it ... look at me, so am I!!!"

#54 UberArcade OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 8:33 AM

I think anyone that has a paid money has a right to voice their concern here as long as it doesn't turn into anything nasty. We should try to keep a few facts straight as you pointed out. I don't know how much money was taken in orders or the exact time I placed my order. Two years or a little less sounds about right for when I paid. And obviously he has spent a lot of that money at this point on plastic cases, nameplates, boxes, etc. so it isn't like he took a bunch of money and did nothing. Some progress was made and shown. It is the lack of updates, lack of games shown, other side projects, and it paints a picture of a general lack of concern if the thing ever gets completed by its creator. Keeping thing secret is perfectly fine if you haven't taken money in orders. Heck it can go on for years as a side project and I am cool with it, but once I have paid for something I should be in the loop on how it is going and when I should expect to get the actual product. Also show me an actual game demo. There should have been a working/tested prototype and some software that uses it created before taking orders and way before printing boxes and all that mess. That money is long gone now and you have a pile of plastic and cardboard and nothing that works.

#55 Jaynz OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 8:37 AM

I put up the $15,000 amount based on the reported number of orders and the amount each order cost. Absent any proof of additional orders or costs, that's where the number seems to be. The 'three years' is based on the date given for the first orders taken.

#56 KevinMos3 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 8:49 AM

I really don't want to stoke a fire or encourage people to "pile on" Curt. I still believe we should all be patient and polite as possible in expressing our frustration. The post I made over a year ago was saying that I wish more people would encourage Curt, groovybee, etc. to please hurry up, instead of everyone just saying "take as long as you want." That was my point then and now. Maybe it would have made a difference in the project being put on the back burner or maybe not. But, I was sick of seeing everyone saying "take all the time in the world" and then shouting down anyone who felt otherwise.

I DO want to stress though, that I don't think it's helpful to be rude or beat up on Curt. Just polite nudging to please get the thing done is what I want to express and hopefully see from others.

#57 Gemintronic OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 8:55 AM

I guess the best thing to do is stay on topic. Is it time for another XM update?

Did he promise a definite update at a definite time? What was the last roadblock he posted? Is there any reason to believe that roadblock has been resolved?

Usually responsible engineering types like to shut the hell up until something concrete is fit for communication. I personally like to bore people with minutiae with my projects. But, that's my style.

#58 DracIsBack OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 9:04 AM

Absent any proof of additional orders


That's the key thing. You're making a claim on the money taken based upon your estimation and presenting it as a 'fact' Worse, the other guy raised the amount. This is how rumours start.

The 'three years' is based on the date given for the first orders taken.


It's September 2013 already?
http://www.digitpres...xpansion-Module

Again, I don't disagree with many of the points raised. I too would love more communication. I wish that when Curt says he is going to give weekly updates or updates on day X, that he sticks to it, or simply doesn't make the promise. I don't doubt it's coming (too much has been invested already in time, money, parts etc).

But people - stop fracken embellishing the story.

Edited by DracIsBack, Fri Nov 9, 2012 9:08 AM.


#59 Bones Brigade OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 9:13 AM

First it was $15,000. Now it's $20,000. The story keeps growing.



I ordered mine in November of 2010. 2 years ago. But suddenly, it's 3 years. Again, the story keeps growing.



I happily agree that communication would solve this.

What I don't like is the schoolyard gang up mentality. This is like watching a bunch of gibbons pile on a lion and harass from all sides.

"Well he's doing it ... look at me, so am I!!!"


I don't know about the money first hand, but just based on the number of pre-orders that have been talked about, it's at least $15,000, but probably closer to $20,000.

The XM project began the design phase in 2009, and began taking pre-orders in 2010 when the first plastics and beta boards (if one chooses to believe they actually exist) were thrown together.

As for the gang mentality, - on the surface it would seem quite unfair. But having read up quite a bit on this subject because I am interested in it, there's a pretty long and detailed history on this board of dissatisfaction with Curt being able to deliver numerous projects and products he's taken money from people for on time, or sometimes at all. Combine that with 2+ years of delays from when he started taking money, it can be pretty damn frustrating for the users. Those users deserve to have a place to express their concern.

But the fact that certain members this site was actively protecting Curt by removing or editing disparaging (but true) posts about him and the project, and apparently banning people for venting their frustrations - the piling on seems apropos. a Number of vocal supporters of the project used to go on for pages and pages shouting people down for any perceived slight. This is just the appropriate comeuppance for allowing THAT kind of bullying behavior to exist here.

#60 DracIsBack OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 9:23 AM

I don't know about the money first hand, but just based on the number of pre-orders that have been talked about, it's at least $15,000, but probably closer to $20,000.


What bothers me is people quoting their 'guess' as a 'fact'.

(if one chooses to believe they actually exist)


Nice subtle way of throwing a bone out there that this is all made up. What exactly are you trying to do?

Those users deserve to have a place to express their concern.


I don't disagree. Curt's biggest failing is communication. Sometimes he replies, sometimes he doesn't. Strikes me as someone who sometimes bites off more than he can chew.

On the history of the project, the reality is that it has been controversial from the beginning and it's typically spread over a couple of areas.
  • Whether or not there's a need for the XM at all
  • What the XM is actually designed to do (is it the 7800's '32X' or is it the 7800's "MMC equivalent in one unit")
  • Whether or not the XM is real in any form or an elaborate hoax
  • The pre-order process and communication

For me, 1&2 have a simple answer ... if you don't like it or don't see the need for it, don't buy it. but don't come in the forum trying to perpetually spoil it for those that do.

For #3, I think it's silly. Of course its real. Its been shown at trade shows. Games have been shown (in video form and photo form). Curt has shown components and assembly. Pacman Plus, GroovyBee and others have shown games.

For #4, I've said all I'm going to say on that.

#61 Master Phruby OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 9:32 AM

I've been reading this a long time also. I think taking pre-orders so early was a mistake. It makes people nervous when things are delayed with no communication and money is on the line. They feel they can't do anything and the feeling of being taken for ride sets in. I think people also protect them in fear of never seeing the product finished. Personally I don't see this ending well and I'm glad I don't have a horse in this race. Delays plus lack of communication equals class action law suits.

#62 swlovinist OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 9:36 AM

This might bring up a can of worms, but I think that this might need to be addressed(the whole site). At what point is it not okay to deliver a product when money has been exchanged? As a person who lost $70.00 to Mentis(Rev Rob avoid at all costs), with countless delays and communication issues/updates...should the site have a policy on this? I have to say again, the issue is not the time....its the communication and the fact that several people have now been waiting 2+ years.

Again, I support Curt and what he is doing, as I am one of the first people to pre-order. I want this done as much as anyone else. But at some point, there needs to be fair accountability across the board for any project. Just saying. I am typically a very positive and neutral person, but I do want to state that there is some genuine concern about how this has been handled.

#63 DracIsBack OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:12 AM

And yes - it does 'exist' in prototype form. Anyone who believes it doesn't, I have land to sell you in Florida.

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Edited by DracIsBack, Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:19 AM.


#64 Gemintronic OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:17 AM

This might bring up a can of worms, but I think that this might need to be addressed(the whole site). At what point is it not okay to deliver a product when money has been exchanged? As a person who lost $70.00 to Mentis(Rev Rob avoid at all costs), with countless delays and communication issues/updates...should the site have a policy on this? I have to say again, the issue is not the time....its the communication and the fact that several people have now been waiting 2+ years.

Again, I support Curt and what he is doing, as I am one of the first people to pre-order. I want this done as much as anyone else. But at some point, there needs to be fair accountability across the board for any project. Just saying. I am typically a very positive and neutral person, but I do want to state that there is some genuine concern about how this has been handled.


Making AtariAge the pre-order police isn't a viable solution. If one can't keep your grievance between Curt and you then make a post in the Market Feedback topic without hyperbole.

Obviously this doesn't mean you in particular. Just answering your question.

#65 Nuclear Pacman OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:32 AM

First it was $15,000. Now it's $20,000. The story keeps growing.



I ordered mine in November of 2010. 2 years ago. But suddenly, it's 3 years. Again, the story keeps growing.



I happily agree that communication would solve this.

What I don't like is the schoolyard gang up mentality. This is like watching a bunch of gibbons pile on a lion and harass from all sides.

"Well he's doing it ... look at me, so am I!!!"


Yeah because the cult of curt brigade NEVER gangs up on people who voice their concerns over this project, right drac?

#66 Albert OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:42 AM

Yeah because the cult of curt brigade NEVER gangs up on people who voice their concerns over this project, right drac?


Voice your concerns all you want, but please stop with this "cult of curt brigade" rubbish, it's childish. Sure, there are people who will come to his defense, but you're seeing plenty of backlash as well.

I've been in the position of having taken money for pre-orders for projects that did not get completed in the time frame originally envisioned (Adventure II and Boulder Dash). I don't enjoy doing this, so I rarely take money for pre-orders, and prefer instead to have the project completed before I start selling it. That's why I'm not taking money in advance for more copies of Halo 2600. Communication is very important if you're taking money for pre-orders, and especially if there are delays. I communicated regularly regarding Adventure II and Boulder Dash, and that communication goes a long way towards reducing angst.

I paid for two 7800 Expansion Modules on September 27th, 2010. I'm confident I'll receive them, but I'd certainly like to know where the project stands and what remains to be done before these can be shipped to those who supported the project early on.

..Al

#67 mimo OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:44 AM

There really is no point in keep going over old ground time and time again, just wanting a regular easy to find update as promised several times. If Curt can't do it, maybe Groovy bee can chime in as he is pretty close to the Sharp end I believe

#68 Bones Brigade OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:50 AM

Voice your concerns all you want, but please stop with this "cult of curt brigade" rubbish, it's childish. Sure, there are people who will come to his defense, but you're seeing plenty of backlash as well.

I've been in the position of having taken money for pre-orders for projects that did not get completed in the time frame originally envisioned (Adventure II and Boulder Dash). I don't enjoy doing this, so I rarely take money for pre-orders, and prefer instead to have the project completed before I start selling it. That's why I'm not taking money in advance for more copies of Halo 2600. Communication is very important if you're taking money for pre-orders, and especially if there are delays. I communicated regularly regarding Adventure II and Boulder Dash, and that communication goes a long way towards reducing angst.

I paid for two 7800 Expansion Modules on September 27th, 2010. I'm confident I'll receive them, but I'd certainly like to know where the project stands and what remains to be done before these can be shipped to those who supported the project early on.

..Al

Until recently when you stepped in to try and even things about (rightly so, thank you), certain moderators who shall remain nameless were gleefully editing and deleting posts about this project that were disparaging - even when they were true. Some people were even put on moderator preview or banned altogether for speaking ill of the XM, Curt, or others involved in the project. Sure, some of them may have had a history of being malcontents, but the impetus of these bannings/mod preview status was this project.

I think the thing about the treatment of this project here that is most troubling is the revisionist history being purported by it's supporters. Not you Albert, but others.

#69 DracIsBack OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 11:10 AM

is the revisionist history being purported by it's supporters. Not you Albert, but others.

Let it go already, dude ...

Edited by DracIsBack, Fri Nov 9, 2012 11:11 AM.


#70 VectorGamer OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 11:12 AM

I rarely take money for pre-orders, and prefer instead to have the project completed before I start selling it.


Damn skippy. I'm not a patient person and fortunately I did not pre-order the 7800-XM - I'd be pretty PO'd at this point especially when it was said last year that "the XM will definitely be shipping in time for Xmas."

So yeah, I think people who got onboard with this have a right to be angry with the lack of updates on this project (contrast that with the regular updates being posted about Opcode's Super Game Module) and at the same time have to exercise what little patience is left in hopes of getting a product that has been thoroughly tested and error-free.

In any event, my opinion is that money shouldn't've been taken two years ago if the product is not even close to being ready. On top of that, now we have people taking pre-orders for XM games with no hardware to play them on.

When the XM is ready, I'll buy it and the XM games. But nothing out of my pocket until then.

#71 bennybingo OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 11:20 AM

... if you don't like it or don't see the need for it, don't buy it. but don't come in the forum trying to perpetually spoil it for those that do.


Hi Drac,

You know that I have been a vocal supporter of Curt and this project since the beginning, but I tend to disagree with the statement above. I don't think you are wrong in your statement...it just doesn't apply to what is going on here. The vast majority of those complaining, have legitimate gripes. It may have gone different if Curt had handled things a bit differently:
  • Curt should have warned everyone from the beginning that this would be a long term project, with no solid delivery date promises...folks HATE broken promises.
  • Curt should have treated those who pre-ordered the XM, like investors, rather than customers. Customers pay money in exchange for goods...either immediately or to be delivered on a certain date. Investors, on the other hand, are part of a process to bring a product to market...this is what we are (ipso-facto).
  • Communication...it doesn't need to be a major announcement every time (good or bad)...just let us know that you are alive and still have this project on the radar screen. With the legacy engineering site down, and no communication, things just don't look good. I know this may be nothing or it may be a personal problem Curt has to tend to, but anyone who holds a large sum of money from a large number of people MUST keep in touch up until all agreements are satisfied...if not, don't be so surprised or butt-hurt when the pitchforks and torches come out!
  • Set benchmarks...if you have a project with no set, hard dates for your benchmarks, it will never be done. All that will happen is revision after revision....at some point, this needs to get kicked out of the nest Curt!
Anyhow, I still have faith in this project (albeit slightly shaken) and I hope all is well with Curt. If you are reading this Curt, please take a moment to drop a line...let us know you are OK and all that jazz. After all, you are a member of this community first and we are concerned...getting my XM is a close second tho!!! :D

Thanks!

Ben

#72 DracIsBack OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 11:24 AM

The vast majority of those complaining, have legitimate gripes. It may have gone different if Curt had handled things a bit differently:


Agree. That comment wasn't with regards to this batch of venom, but a commentary on the history of the XM controversy over time and the sources of it.

#73 Master Phruby OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 12:07 PM

I've been debating whether to share my experience with Legacy Engineering. Anyway, I bought a USB Atari joystick from them. The site said was in stock. It didn't arrive within a week so I was concerned. I sent numerous emails (at one point almost every day) and very rarely got responses back. Sometimes I got emails back saying it was going to ship tomorrow (which were lies). Other times I got really nasty be patient messages that they were looking for a box and one time he said New York is under water due to a hurricane so he can't get to the post office. (this was two years ago) I constantly asked for my money back with no response. Finally after two and half months, the joystick arrived. I should have reversed the charges with my credit card company and filed a complaint with the BBB but I didn't. From what I've found around here, this experience is very common when dealing with Legacy Engineering. It just seems like they really don't care about their customers.

#74 fernando marrin OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 12:37 PM

I've been debating whether to share my experience with Legacy Engineering. Anyway, I bought a USB Atari joystick from them. The site said was in stock. It didn't arrive within a week so I was concerned. I sent numerous emails (at one point almost every day) and very rarely got responses back. Sometimes I got emails back saying it was going to ship tomorrow (which were lies). Other times I got really nasty be patient messages that they were looking for a box and one time he said New York is under water due to a hurricane so he can't get to the post office. (this was two years ago) I constantly asked for my money back with no response. Finally after two and half months, the joystick arrived. I should have reversed the charges with my credit card company and filed a complaint with the BBB but I didn't. From what I've found around here, this experience is very common when dealing with Legacy Engineering. It just seems like they really don't care about their customers.



happened to me too, but with multiple joysticks orders,
in my case
EDITED,don't want to get banned

#75 Allan OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 9, 2012 12:58 PM

EDITED,don't want to get banned


http://www.atariage....t/page__st__450

Allan




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