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Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 12:58 PM
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 1:07 PM
And I find that very interesting. I don't feel it's OK to add on to an Atari or C64 in ways that really change the machine definition. Much better to see creative efforts focused on what's mostly in the box, or what was there in the day. Love that, and I follow a lot of projects and like to do them too. With an Apple, it is OK to add on in very significant ways. Putting an mp3 player in there is just fine! That's what the machine is for, and that is how people used it in the day, and I kind of want one of those.
***On a side note, wonder whether or not an Apple could do Bruce Lee in double high res... That is something the Apple scene is missing, IMHO.
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 1:10 PM
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 1:27 PM
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 1:33 PM
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 1:39 PM
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 1:41 PM
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 1:45 PM
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 1:51 PM
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 1:54 PM
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 1:59 PM
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 2:46 PM
In another instance, you could get a card that was basically a recreation of the Apple II memory map with a fast processor. All program activity stayed on the card. It had it's own ram, shadow rom, and bus logic. Basically a whole new computer. This was the transwarp design. The main 6502 and memory on the motherboard was for all intents and purposes shut down. Your program resided and ran entirely on the Accelerator card. Your "old" Apple II was now a terminal and slave expansion box to the new "computer" you just installed.
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 2:48 PM
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 3:25 PM
I know where to find you when there is something to talk about. Apple needs WAY more of that kind of thing.
I will be a long while yet. On //e, the signal I want is there, but not on ][+ Right now, just building lower level things, blitter, main loop, and testing various things out, including the 65C02, which I never programmed for specifically. Honestly, thinking just //e and the c right now. If whatever happens runs on a GS, great, but I'm not targeting that one.
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 4:27 PM
One question that springs to mind whilst i'm here though; are any of the Apple II folks in this 'ere thread writing new games at all? i'm always looking for new stuffs to review for Retro Gamer! =-)
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 5:01 PM
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 5:06 PM
... digital input users are still missing out on that front. Somebody needs to produce some hardware and we can go and analogify some great games. Seriously!
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 5:16 PM
I know where to find you when there is something to talk about. Apple needs WAY more of that kind of thing.
Here's one for you http://rsp.retrocomp...y-brian-picchi/ he entered this in the Retrospectiva 8-bit game competition. It's in Basic but it's not bad. He's also got a few other games he's written recently for the Apple II.
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 5:23 PM
sounds interesting, just never did (and still dont) much like analog joystick, funnyt how in time that became the satandard,though not in the cludgy way of an apple or PC. Also on another note while an Apple kind of was the as you say, "get stuff "meaning work" done " 8 bit, that was also because mainly that was all it could do, no dedicated graphics or sound,poor joysticks etc. Atari should have stomped the crap out of it with the lower price and greater features. Business places carried apple for sure but there were very few of these type of stores. My high school had a couple of early apples but sadly nobody was allowed to touch them (1980-81)
Oh, and joysticks.
Ok, I really like the Atari VCS controllers. Always have, always will, but I have to say analog controls are damn cool and digital input users missed out in some ways. Play "choplifter" on the Apple, and it's a different experience from the other machines that lacked analog controls. Play "robotron" on Apple (which kicks a ton of ass BTW), and the two buttons also brings a different experience and some strategy to the game missing from the digital or dual stick configurations.
Modding an Apple joystick to work on the Atari was one of my first hardware projects! I never did complete a game back then, but I did get some nice movement going, and I think that all of us Atari, C64, etc... digital input users are still missing out on that front. Somebody needs to produce some hardware and we can go and analogify some great games. Seriously!
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 5:35 PM
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 5:57 PM
The 5200 controllers didn't quite execute on simple, robust analog input. Personally, I found them difficult, but they did have lots of options!
Actually, that wasn't all the machine could do. Anyone saying that simply hasn't played very many games on the Apple. Sorry. There are lots of kinds of games and lots of ways to render them. One could flip that around and bitch about all the Atari games that present less than they could because of the sprite system and lack of high resolution colors without a ton of CPU being involved too. 6 color high res screens are enough to do basically anything. 4 color high res screens aren't, and look at all the CPU tricks to get more than those 4 colors.
PoP is a great example of this, and the good use of the double high resolution screens on the better Apples. 6 color screens, with some high resolution color capability meant for some killer pixel art that is very difficult to reproduce on the machines with custom hardware. That hardware brought more colors, which is a good thing, but the trade-off was not having smaller color dots, and or significant freedom of movement on multi-color scenarios. These differences impacted how games were presented, and the fun part here is exploring that, of which the Apple has a lot to contribute.
Again, don't get me wrong here. I think Atari / C64 gaming is superior in many ways, but that doesn't devalue Apple gaming. Spectrum is a similar dynamic. Many of those games are killer, despite significant system limitations. Good games are to be had all over the place, not just on the more spiffy machines, and in fact, those hardware features influenced games strongly, and that was not always a good thing. And we see people hammering on the Speccy for many of the same reasons, despite there being a shit ton of great games produced on it.
And the standard has moved back to analog input too. The difference today is we get encoders in key places instead of pots, which is a very nice improvement. Dual analog sticks are used a hell of a lot more these days than we see binary inputs. On my PS3, it's nearly all analog, but for the D-pad. Funny how that works, isn't it?
I think there is absolutely nothing kludgy about PC / Apple inputs. Having the hardware assist that is good, but not necessary.
Edited by atarian63, Sat Dec 8, 2012 6:07 PM.
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 6:11 PM
The only machine I know of with pirating parties and a magazine dedicate to game copying parameters.
I dunno, pirated Apple ][ software was everywhere I went back in the day. xD
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 6:49 PM
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012 7:02 PM
it may have worked for some but you would have to agree mostly folks thought is was low value or just did not understand computers back then,they fell back to "you get what you pay for" in making a "safe" decision about something they knew little about.Also a bit of "well they have one at school" mentality,which really was smart on apples part and really made the company.Without such I think there would be no apple. Certainly C64 Atari had that over Apple hands down. It really wasn't repeat business with apple, folks bought a few things and were done. For gaming there were much better options. Repeat customers were in DAILY, but Atari,commodore software,add on devices etc.PC's were much the same, get your lotus and word Processor and mostly you were done,at least until adlib and ega/vga came along to give the machine what it should have had from the beginning.
Yep! That was pretty excellent, and if you had an older ][+, cracking games was pretty easy. That was my first experience doing that, and a few of us got one to work! Learned a lot doing that. A similar experience was cracking CoCo carts. It was entirely possible to do that with just EDTASM, a cassette and a ROM dump right to the tape. Bad ass. My first Atari crack was a lot easier frankly. It was Ultima II, and all you really had to do was open the door after a certain number of beeps to get past the bad sector check. An error was needed, didn't matter which one. Started down that road with MAC/65, but kind of was moving on at that point, so it never came to pass, beyond editing some sectors and such to make games easier or change the art.
(sorry guys, we all were kids, and I didn't have a lot at that time anyway)
"Raise the price"
Yep. This is something Apple has rather consistently shown the industry as a whole, much to it's chagrin. Here's the deal: It never, ever was about share. It is all about margin and repeat business. Always has been, always will be.
Apple computers cost a lot more than the other 8 bitters did, but you got a lot more too. In fact, the more you paid, the more you got! Many other machines flat lined in terms of core features, where an Apple ][ just didn't. Want to run a 6809, 68K in your Apple ][. Done. Want very high resolution color graphics, sprites, whatever? Done. Better sound? Big ass storage? I/O for test, measurement, cross development, whatever? Done.
Decided I was in an Apple mood and Mrs. wanted a few tunes. I do that on my MacBook only. That MacBook costs more than a Dell, but it's a great machine throughout. Great design, usability, documentation, ease of use, etc... The OS gives me no shit ever too. That's worth a lot, and when you combine it all together, the margin on the PACKAGE, not just the hardware, adds a lot of value, and look at how well Apple is capitalized compared to most other computer companies who really don't get it, and never have. There is no contest.
There wasn't back then either. For people who wanted a serious computer to get shit done, the Apple ][ was that computer, until the PC, and then it became that computer because IBM did get it.
Hard pill to swallow for those of us who like really interesting machines like the ST, Amiga, etc... but one that's really hard to deny.
In fact, your best sale would have been a nicely equipped Apple, positioned as a serious machine with a lot of potential, which it was. That would be a maximum case value proposition with a lot of margin in it for you, particularly if you had offered get started services and some packages to go along with the machine itself. Selling just an Apple, Disk and game controllers really wasn't where it was at. That didn't do much, but one that was sold with interface cards, dual disks, a great printer, Apple Works, maybe a CP/M card, Modem, and other goodies? Big dollars, but also big value, high margin sale too.
In fact, Apple people still pay. My CFFA wasn't cheap, but it's kick ass. Happy to do it, and the package adds value just like most things Apple did. Great docs, professionally produced hardware, updates, the whole deal.
Back in the day, "power without the price" was nice, because people could get a machine cheap and do a lot of stuff, and that wasn't a bad thing to have out there. Worked for me, but... That race to the bottom never really ends well, and a lot of computer shops suffered over time because of it. Apple computer stores consistently moved up the chain, keeping value high, margins high, from ][ to Mac, and that extends through today. They did well, able to exist out there adding a lot of value over time, not always trying to package more into fewer dollars every year.
Yet another "vs" point of discussion. I always wonder what would have happened with another machine raised to that bar, done with slots, case, and supporting docs, open enough to carry the Apple ][ torch forward. It was the PC, but at that time, another could have stepped in, as could have Apple themselves. Turns out, they did well with the Mac vision, but it was kind of a bumpy ride. All that good value, high margin in the ][ basically funded the Mac though, rendering Apple a billion dollar company on the 6502. Say what you want, but that kicked a lot of ass. Count me as a fan.
Edited by atarian63, Sat Dec 8, 2012 7:05 PM.
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