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Apparent Sony Patent to Block Second Hand Games


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#26 chris_lynx1989 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:38 AM

My memory is funny on this, but for some reason, I seem to remember back before the PS3 or 360 came out, someone patented a technology that would allow a small part of the game disc to be writable. Once you put the game into your system, that part of the disc would be written to, and the disc would become locked to the console.

If I am remembering correctly, obviously, it hasn't been used yet.

Sony has done this for a few years here,sort of on that level in a way.

Since 2008/9 PSP and now Vita (PS3 too, i believe) used games are locked out of being able to be used on PSN in infrastructure multi-player gaming unless you spend and extra $10/$15 dollars after you bought the thing at GameStop or etc or off your friend giving you/selling you their copy.Sony tries to get players going and coming,it seems.LOL.Isn't the point of buying or getting something used a way to try and save money?I always thought it was!This is why I avoid buying used PSP and Vita stuff if it offers more than single player/Ad Hoc gaming on it.I'm not paying Sony/PSN another possible $15 bucks after I get home and log on to enjoy my used purchase on PSN with other gamers.!!THAT IS TOTAL CRAP on Sony's part,I think.Total BS.I'll buy it new or in the clearance bin or NOS style at a flea market before I do that crap.LOL

#27 cybercylon ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:13 AM

Sony has done this for a few years here,sort of on that level in a way.

Since 2008/9 PSP and now Vita (PS3 too, i believe) used games are locked out of being able to be used on PSN in infrastructure multi-player gaming unless you spend and extra $10/$15 dollars after you bought the thing at GameStop or etc or off your friend giving you/selling you their copy.Sony tries to get players going and coming,it seems.LOL.Isn't the point of buying or getting something used a way to try and save money?I always thought it was!This is why I avoid buying used PSP and Vita stuff if it offers more than single player/Ad Hoc gaming on it.I'm not paying Sony/PSN another possible $15 bucks after I get home and log on to enjoy my used purchase on PSN with other gamers.!!THAT IS TOTAL CRAP on Sony's part,I think.Total BS.I'll buy it new or in the clearance bin or NOS style at a flea market before I do that crap.LOL


I don't think that is built into the disc... In otherwords, there isn't a system out that does that. What you may be referring to is an on-line pass. EA has been doing this for years now with their sports titles. For example, if my son and I both like FIFA 13, it comes with one on-lone pass. If that gets used on one of our profiles, we have to purchase a second online pass. That is about as low as things get. The game gets bought new, and each member of the the same house hold has to have their own online pass.

#28 TheGameCollector OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:44 PM

Yeah online passes are only used by EA that I know of. It only really affects people who actually play multiplayer though. It's not gonna effect us old school RPG and Platformer nerds. And most if not all fighting games still allow players in the same room to do multiplayer so online isn't necessary for those.

That is a great idea though. Maybe what they'll do when games get old is they'll just start selling them for $10 so they can still make money off them. Somebody will probably hack the system anyway though. It happens every time. Someone might even eventually break into these currently "unhackable" PS3s. It just might require some physical modding like the Xbox 360 does.

#29 vrocko OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:31 AM

When did it get to the point that used anything is an issue with any industry? Like I've said before, I don't see car manufacturers bitching about used car sales, or computer makers complaining about used PC's, or clothes companies yelling over used clothing sales, why such an issue with used games? Now I agree, used game sales are probably higher than that of new game sales but when a game comes out at $60 a pop, most of us look at it and say, "I'll wait till the price comes down." I do this all the time. I just bought Ridge Racer Unbounded (lord that sounds so stupid) for $20 used. It's been out awhile and I don't see the point in buying the game new when I know it will come down. Now I risk the fact that I may not have been able to find the game after X number of months of it being out, but I did find it and paid what I wanted to for it. Used games do help the new games market. If you buy a used game by Company A and like it, you may not want to wait for the next iteration of the game or another game made by Company A to come down in price or end up on the used rack. You may want to buy the game new from Company A with the extras because you really liked the one you bought used. I bought Knights of the Old Republic II new because I really liked my used copy of Knights of the Old Republic I. I've bought most of Bioware's games new because they make great games.

Another thing that bothers me about this from Sony is the fact how does your new system tell the difference between used and new? If I buy a used game isn't it new to the system? How does it know I bought it used vs new? What happens if my system dies on me and I have to get a new one? Are all my games purchased for the old broken system considered used on the new system? Would I have to buy all new games to use on the new system? Also what a waste of DVD's! If all used games can't be swapped from system to system you have a stack of games that are now virtually worth zero. They may be worth something to you because you enjoy them but you can't sell or trade them to anyone else if you need the money or want to get new games. I usually keep all my games, with a few exceptions here and there, but I have most of the games I've purchased for all my systems. Now I know the future will be DLC, which I hate but tolerate to get new levels or cars or characters for a game. Most of the games I buy are on disk. Most of the DLC I have is either free or comes with a game or I have due to points I've earned from Microsoft for survey's I've taken so like I say I tolerate DLC but very infrequently purchase it. I will probably not buy the next generation of game systems if they are all DLC.

I know this all about control for Sony, MS and Nintendo too. I've said this from day one. Look at what Nintendo did in the 80's with NES carts although for a different reason they still were looking to control the market. Sony's doing it with the DVD's now and DLC will just make it all that much easier for all the current game companies. What will happen to GameStop and all the game selling stores? Will they go out of business? Possibly or maybe they will just sell DLC cards for you to purchase instead of game DVD's. Who knows.

Like I said I don't see where used games are killing or even hurting the Video Game industry, quite the opposite in my opinion, but of course major game companies want more control over what they sell so they have to figure out new ways to tighten their grip on consumers and what they purchase.

Ok I've written a book so I'll get off my soapbox again.

Rich

#30 carmel_andrews OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:06 AM

Doesn't this also stop some forms of piracy, since you will only be able to play the game you purchased on the machine you first played the game on (i.e. you won't be able to play that game on any other sony system)

I think this is some sort of software protection system preventing illegal copies flooding the marketplace

The thing about not being able to use second hand games (or used games to you people) is a side benefit (to MS's games publishers/developers)

I think this was a move by software devs/pubs against sony, the idea being that if sony didn't agree to this (i.e the online verification system) then their platform wouldn't be supported

I think a similar system is already in place on tablet pc's and mobile phone apps (i.e. you can only download the content on the device your'e going to use the content on, again to prevent a used app market and also to stop piracy to some effect)

#31 stardust4ever OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:56 AM

It sucks, I know. I just picked up Little Big Planet Karting, and it had an online use activation code in it. No biggie, because the game was new, but it doesn't even say that crap on the box, well maybe in fine print, but still...

Xbox 360 will be download only. Great for those people living in the Yukon without broadband...

Retro gaming will be dead 8th gen and up, save for maybe Wii-U...

#32 onlysublime OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:17 PM

the terminology is wrong. the rumor is Xbox will have online DRM which means you have to be logged online to run your games. however, the games still come on Bluray disc (except of course the XBLA titles). it's not a download only system where you have to buy and download the game a la Steam.

#33 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:59 PM

When did it get to the point that used anything is an issue with any industry? Like I've said before, I don't see car manufacturers bitching about used car sales, or computer makers complaining about used PC's, or clothes companies yelling over used clothing sales, why such an issue with used games?

Another thing that bothers me about this from Sony is the fact how does your new system tell the difference between used and new? If I buy a used game isn't it new to the system? How does it know I bought it used vs new?

What happens if my system dies on me and I have to get a new one?


Used cars and clothes and other forms of hardware that actually does something in the real physical world wear out over time. MFG's know this and can control the rate at which it happens by upping or downing the quality of materials used. Software does not wear out. Games don't all of a sudden get blurry graphics or run slow or develop control inaccuracies. Software is identical today as it was day one. The game industry needs to have some sort of obsolescence so they can push new material on consumers. In other areas the wearing out of things takes care of that.

There were even experiments where the disc would degrade over time, say 5 years or something, where slow corrosion would take place. Eventually rendering the disc blank. I don't recall it ever catching on too well.

Sony could have the player burn a mark on the disc. Of course this should only work on new discs designed with a marker area. Perhaps maybe the player would have a powerful enough laser that burns in code even to old discs, thus locking them to the one system. If another player tries reading the disc it will reject it if there is previously burned "super-burn" code already there.

You'd have to send the player to sony for exchange, they'd give you a new system, and transfer the "bios/cmos" codes to the new player. Thus destroying the spectre of the old player and allowing the new player have the old player's codes and serials and whatever.

The mobile phone industry does this thousands of times every single day, in the form of IMEI and simcard registrations. Or whatever the fuck it is they do.

#34 Cap5750 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:37 PM

We'll see what happens with the nextgen, but if the rumors are true, I'll stick with what I have. I have more then enough games and games that I could get for things I have to keep me more then busy the rest of my life.

I don't like paying $60 for a brand new game. But for certain titles that I know I'll play enough to get my money's worth, I will. But there are other games that maybe I want, but won't play a lot if at all finish it. That, to me, is where the used marked comes in. I don't care about playing online, so that doesn't bother me.

What does bother me...and this actually happened with one of my favorite PS3 games, is when I put the disk in and on the menu is a mode that when I click on it, I'm told I have to pay an additional $XX.00 to be able to download it. I don't like all the download stuff either. I mean, it's great...and the prices are cheap. But how come I can't put them on an external drive that I could "register" with my device. That way, I'm not constantly trying to figure out what I want to play and then make a decision only to find out I have to delete something to make room for it and redownload it. Speaking of downloads...DLC...ugh...don't get me started.

I understand people want to make money, but when it gets to the point that I don't OWN what I buy (that is, I pay for a use-license and the game is online) or I can't buy cheap used games (which if I end up really liking it might actually get me to buy a new sequel of the game by the way) and if I'm forced to pay additional money on top of the 60 dollars I already spent to get the rest of the game, then I'm done.

I'll take all my Atari (2600, 7800), Sega (Genesis, CD, 32X, Dreamcast), Nintendo (64, WII U), Microsoft (Xbox, Xbox 360), Sony (PS1, PS2 and PS3) and let's not forget the good ol C64 stuff and have a blast!

#35 akator OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:28 PM

Retro gaming will be dead 8th gen and up, save for maybe Wii-U...


Retrogaming won't be dead, you'll just have to keep repurchasing the same games every time you get new hardware... just like many people have been doing for the last 20 years. You know, like when people bought classic game collections for the Genesis, SNES, PlayStation, N64, Dreamcast, PS2, GBA, Xbox, Game Cube, 360, Wii, PS3, PSP, DS, 3DS, PS Vita, Macs, PCs, iOS, Android, and cell phones.

The differences are that you won't be able to buy a used copy, and that even if you did that used software probably wouldn't run on the "old hardware" that required network verification (meaning servers) to verify DRM. Your "old PS4" might be running perfectly fine, but without those Sony DRM servers that were taken down in 2020, your PS4 is completely useless. But that shouldn't worry you, because you'll be able to buy the exact same software (again) for your PS5. And your PS6, and...

But no, retrogaming won't be dead. People will find a way to circumvent the restrictions, just as they do now. Emulation will make it unnecessary to have the original hardware, just as it does now. Retrogaming will be alive and well, changing to the future as demanded. Just as it has before and does now.

#36 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:33 PM

Emulation is King for retrogaming, everybody knows that. And emulating the servers, perhaps with a Raspberry PI class computer or something would allow the existing hardware to be used in the future.

I also see these fake servers letting you unlock and even "download" all the content. Well, by the time we need such devices they'll be cheaper'n a floozie from yo trailer park. We'll have multi-TB SD cards, 32-core processors, 4k video - all on a $25.00 board fits in your mouse.

#37 stardust4ever OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:40 AM

Retrogaming won't be dead, you'll just have to keep repurchasing the same games every time you get new hardware... just like many people have been doing for the last 20 years. You know, like when people bought classic game collections for the Genesis, SNES, PlayStation, N64, Dreamcast, PS2, GBA, Xbox, Game Cube, 360, Wii, PS3, PSP, DS, 3DS, PS Vita, Macs, PCs, iOS, Android, and cell phones.

The differences are that you won't be able to buy a used copy, and that even if you did that used software probably wouldn't run on the "old hardware" that required network verification (meaning servers) to verify DRM. Your "old PS4" might be running perfectly fine, but without those Sony DRM servers that were taken down in 2020, your PS4 is completely useless. But that shouldn't worry you, because you'll be able to buy the exact same software (again) for your PS5. And your PS6, and...

I said the future market for retro gaming on consoles 8th gen and up will be dead. How many times has Earthbound SNES been released? Once that I know of. What good is a PS4 to me in 2025 when I can only play "new" games on it, and the online servers for game authentication have been shut down? Ever notice how much "new / factory sealed" games from the 8-bit and 16-bit era consoles (3rd and 4th gen) cost? What good will a secondhand "online only" Xbox 720 be to me once the servers are gone? I had better hope I enjoy playing the exact same games the previous owner did and nothing else. It's bad enough that the current generation of games from PS3/360 will only be known for their single player or "campain modes" rather than their online experience. I guess that just sweetens the deal for future Nintendo Wii collectors then. How do I even know that greedy M$ and $ony will still exist in 2025? Nobody expected in the early 80s that Atari would someday die, or look at Sega in the early 90s. Both companies are gone from a hardware standpoint. If a company goes bankrupt or shuts down their servers or removes backward compatibility, future generations of gamers will be screwed as far as being able to play any games on that console. If things are headed the way I think they're going, then the Wii-U may just be my last ever home console purchase, save for maybe the Ouya. I hope Ouya, the Little Engine that Could, is successful. Or it may well turn out to be the next N-Gage.

Edited by stardust4ever, Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:53 AM.


#38 Classic Pac OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:58 AM

I don't know about the rest of you but I honestly would never buy any console where the games were only playable online. To me it's means when the next generation comes out you essentually have a piece of electronic garbage. I perfer having something psyical in my hands that I can call my own. Okay I admit I have downloaded some games via PSN, more or less because I could not find a psyical copy of the game. Besides the add-on content for Toy Story 3 PSP is fun especially the Buzz Lightyear games. But at least I can say I own a copy, it maybe on a memory stick but it's still mine.

#39 onlysublime OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:32 PM

i think people will get a hoot out of this GIF seeing that both the next Xbox and PS4 are reportedly anti-used games...

Posted Image
image of the prototype PS4 controller with some humorous additions.

#40 wood_jl OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:02 AM

i think people will get a hoot out of this GIF..... <snip!>


Indeed! Thanks for the chuckle; that's a good one!

#41 wood_jl OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:16 AM

What good will a secondhand "online only" Xbox 720 be to me once the servers are gone?

If things are headed the way I think they're going, then the Wii-U may just be my last ever home console purchase, save for maybe the Ouya. I hope Ouya, the Little Engine that Could, is successful. Or it may well turn out to be the next N-Gage.


If Sony and/or Microsoft do block used games, I'll take pleasure in buying a Wii U. This will be a very good thing for Nintendo, if they do this. As a matter of fact, Wii U is already on my list, as it's the only one (so far) that we know will play used games. (Just bring on the Mario Galaxy, people!) A similar situation will arise in the PC motherboard business, when Intel requires its processors to be soldered to the motherboard, it will be a very good thing for AMD. It won't affect a lot of people, but the hardcore tinkerers will all flock to AMD.

Unfortunately, hardcore tinkerers are a fairly small group amongst PC users. Likewise, retrogamers are a small group amongst gamers. It could be that the market doesn't respond very negatively as we'd think, to these developments, in either case.

The Ouya is going to have considerable competion - even in its own category. It's already not alone, and there's likely going to be a flood of Android-based mini-consoles and then a shakedown to see which survive. I think it's way to early to call the shots on those things, yet.

#42 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:23 AM

Just the idea these android consoles are cropping up should worry sony and others.

#43 stardust4ever OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:10 AM

Somebody should make an android based console specifically for homebrew. ARM processor would be a good start because it's cheaper to produce than x86 processor based. There will be two models, a tablet version with SD-flash support, and a home console with internal user-replacable HDD and HDMI output. It will come with a starter development kit pre-installed, including the source code for the dev-kit, and HID USB drivers for gamepad, and optional mouse & keyboard. The ball is now in your court now. Design anything you want for it.




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