Is the IDE PLUS 2.0 still available (not at Lotharek)

[Marius]

128 partitions does not mean 128x16MB eh.... When I am doing a coding-project I usually need 3 or 4 double density 'disks' (images/partitions) .... I never have archive-partitions active when I am coding (I know myself... before I know it I erased a complete partition). So ... when you are working like me, it is rather important to have as much partitions as possible. Not all active at the same time ofcourse. I read somewhere that IDE+ is limited to 15 partitions. It's ok... just like MyIDE (max. 14 partitions). I use ABBUC-Sio2USB for coding...

 

(Is ide+ supporting more partitions with the newer fdisk?)

 

@Larry

Ofcourse there are more solutions; you are right. My point of view is that I want a portable system. Built-In solutions are not what I want. I want to have access to the storage medium (CF card) to make a quick backup on PC/MAC of the whole thing (in an image). And also to add binaries to the FAT32 partition. Besides that sometimes I like my XE more... and then I want to use my XL... this changes from time to time. That's why I want to concentrate on unmodified atari computers. I can grab one, and use it...

[+skr]

@ProWizard: The new APT already is installed on the Card I've sent along with your IDE+ 2.0

But as the lazy guy that I am I only prepared 1 partition, and the card is "only" 128MB. Better do not try 128 partitions with 16MB each there... But all the current software (also APT etc.) is saved on that one partition. Just copy it and use it to install your own cards.

[drac030]

To make things more clear:

 

1) IDE Plus is a development of an earlier interface (by the same hardware designer, i.e. simius) and earlier firmware.(by the same firmware designer, i.e. me).

 

2) for backward compatibility, IDE Plus supports an earlier partition table format, nicknamed "IDEa". You can get an IDEa partitioned disk, attach it to the IDE Plus, and it will work straightaway.

 

3) that older format is limited to 15 partitions, max. 8 GB each. Back in 1995 this seemed a safe reserve.

 

4) recently, together with fjc (with oppositive cooperation of some other AAge fellows), we have developed a new partition table format, called APT. It is "limited" to 65536 partitions and 2 TB. http://drac030.krap.pl/APT_spec.pdf

 

5) IDE Plus supports the APT format as well

 

6) still, there can be only 15 partitions mounted at one time, and this only under SDX, which offers disk ids A: - O: (equal to D1: - D15:)

 

7) it is not that I think anyone needs 65536 partitions; but, while APT was being designed, there was some pressure from userland to make available numbers of partitions like 240 or so. So I decided again to make a safe reserve of 65536 in the design, which of course does not mean, that the implementation has to support all this.

 

IMHO the need to have many partitions is greatly alleviated by the ability of IDE Plus and SIDE to mount ATR files and assign them disk identifiers; instead of wasting disk and partition table space for many small entries, you just keep a number of ATR files on the disk and mount them as necessary.

 

9) the 32 MB per partition limit will hopefully be soon lifted in SDX, which should greatly decrease the desire for many partitions.

Edited March 15, 2013 by drac030

[flashjazzcat]

Heh... was busy replying, but basically: exactly what Konrad wrote.

[Marius]

I really get very excited! It is an AMAZING IDE interface. I do not understand why I did not buy it before... hmm perhaps I was too much busy being the MyIDE ...

 

Anyway I can't wait to start using this. It sounds fabulous.

 

@drac030 indeed good idea to use that ATR's for this. I hope you will find some time in 2013 to make it possible to read/write these atr's from a FAT32 partition. That would make exchanging between PC/Atari easier; or is there already an easy solution for that? (perhaps an APT-manager for windows?)

[+Larry]

Thanks, Jon (and Konrad)!

Yes, APT rings a bell now.

-Larry

 

If you mean APT, then yes - on Drac030's website. It provides for a theoretically unlimited number of partitions, but the only currently available partition editor for APT (i.e. mine) imposes a hard limit of 128 partitions. It should work with absolutely any DOS, though. I'm making some improvements to the "any DOS" version of FDISK, and this will be the partition editor to use going forward - once it's ready.

 

And yes: I doubt anyone needs even 128 partitions. The program would have been MUCH simpler if it didn't have to cater for such a large number.

[IndusGT]

I really get very excited! It is an AMAZING IDE interface. I do not understand why I did not buy it before... hmm perhaps I was too much busy being the MyIDE ...

 

 

Same here, not sure why I missed it...

[MEtalGuy66]

If what you want is a PBI based hardisk/mass-storage interface, this is the best one ever made for the atari.

 

The "crowning jewel" for it would be a firmware based partition manager.

 

But even wihout that, it is as fast or faster than any other hardisk interface, it is the ONLY device that is truly PBI standard compliant, and it is a true/full implementation of IDE with master/slave capability.

 

I own SUPRA, MIO, BLACK BOX, SIDE, and IDE PLUS 2.0.. (MyIDE doesnt count because its just a cheap hack, rather than an actual hardware-developed, system-legal interface)

If I was to run an atari BBS system, or any other application that requires constant performance & reliability from a fast mass storage system, I would definitely use the IDE Plus 2.0..

 

[flashjazzcat]

Why the desire for a firmware-based partition manager? I don't see the point, I'm afraid.

[Marius]

@metalguy66

 

Although my enthusiasm for myide is decreased a lot lately I think that is too negative about it. If myide does not count, side won't count either.

 

Side can only be real hd interface when used in combination with ultimate 1 mb.

I am pretty sure this could also be done with myide.

 

You are right when it comes to mybios which is a downside of myide and indeed with mybios it does not meet the specs for a real hard disk interface.

 

Like I said: I have lost my interest in myide (the mybios part) but even without mybios the myide ][ interface works very well.

[MEtalGuy66]

I didnt say anything negative about MyIDE II.. I dont own that device. Side, on the other hand, works exactly the way it was designed, works very well, and is the result of alot of forethought and design.

 

MyIDE is cheap assed hack that literally is the result of wiring an IDE device directly onto the data bus in the most crude and bareley functional manner possible, and then hacking the OS (the first 3 iterations of which over 10 years were not even stable/bug-free). MyIDE works with about half the CF cards out there, and maybe 1/4th the IDE drives (and thats a very liberal estimate), that's providing you don't have PHI2 issues with the thing (which SIDE and other devices have built in compensation for) in which case it destabilizes the whole system.

 

I can give you names of quite a few individuals who bought MyIDE directly from Atarimax and were NEVER able to make it work. I wont do this publicly, or witout asking them first, but I can certainly have them PM you..

 

I built the first Internal MyIDE boards that were sold by Mr.Atari. Back then, there were no "new" PBI hardisk interfaces you could buy. You could either pay hundreds of dollars for a "vintage" black box, MIO, or SUpra on Ebay, or settle for SIO speeds by using an SIO2IDE. SO at that point, even though MyIDE might require some advanced tinkering to get a working setup, and there were serious bugs, limitations, and compatability issues, it was cheap and made sense to many people. For the last 7-8 years, that has no longer been the case. Only within the last 2-3 years have the MyIDE guys bothered to fix *most* of the problems it has been plagued by since it's inception.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2013 by MEtalGuy66

[MEtalGuy66]

Why the desire for a firmware-based partition manager? I don't see the point, I'm afraid.

 

Well, it's the one thing that the blackbox has above other interfaces.. You can seamlesly pop in and out of the partition manager and either swap drive mounting, or even configure new devices, and then when you exit, you are right back where you were in whatever program or mode you were running.

 

It also negates the need to have yet one more piece of software handy.. Not everyone runs SDX... And certainly not for all applications..

Edited March 17, 2013 by MEtalGuy66

[flashjazzcat]

Well, it's the one thing that the blackbox has above other interfaces.. You can seamlesly pop in and out of the partition manager and either swap drive mounting, or even configure new devices, and then when you exit, you are right back where you were in whatever program or mode you were running.

 

I understand the convenience factor, but partition editors built into firmware tend (from what I've witnessed) to be fairly... utilitarian. I seem to recall when I brought out FDISK for the SDX MyIDE driver, someone remarked that the partition editor should never have been in the MyIDE BIOS in the first place. Can't figure out who it was, though.

 

Anyway: obviously the sophistication of a firmware-based partition editor will tend to be limited by ROM space in the PBI. I suppose that's not a reason to rule it out, though, if it could be done. I've tended to find, though (or at least this is the desired situation) that the partition editor is a "use it once, then forget it" application. But regardless of the fact it's rarely used, it should be capable and intuitive.

 

I can see the wisdom of being able to dynamically mount partitions right from the firmware, although I see this operation as separate from actually prepping a drive for use. There's also the consideration that if the intention is to return from the firmware-based menu to the underlying application, we need some spare RAM as well as ROM in the PBI (for the screen buffer, and anything else we need to cache, on top of the usual sector buffers, partition table storage, etc). IDE Plus can probably handle all this, I guess.

 

Not everyone runs SDX... And certainly not for all applications..

 

There's a disk-based FDISK for APT which runs under any DOS. It's in for servicing right now, though. I wrote it for precisely the reason you cite.

[MEtalGuy66]

Well, my reasoning was that with SDX, the partition manager can reside on the SDX flash partition, in which case, that's just as good as having it in firmware. But when using other disk based DOS, that's not the case..

 

[flashjazzcat]

Yeah, that's true with SDX as long as the partition manager is no more than 8KB in length, which is becoming a problem for me (although a problem which will one day be resolved, I believe). In any case - I've just linked to the non-SDX version of FDISK in the SIDE/U1MB thread. It's 14KB long, so has to run from disk regardless of which DOS you use it with.

[Marius]

@metalguy66: I thought you were speaking also about MyIDE ][ when you wrote about MyIDE. About the first editions of MyIDE I agree completely with you.

[Marius]

I requested earlier in this thread already for this 'swapping on the fly' feature with a key on IDE+ generating an interrupt on the PBI like the BlackBox does. But I guess a new production run of IDE+ will be a run of the rev. C. boards.

 

Although I'm ok with the lack of this key, I think it would be a very welcome feature. I must say that it's one of the features of MyBIOS I like; the 'HELP' key brings up the partition menu in 99% of all cases (some programs turn off all kind of interrupts; then the menu won't appear, but so doesn't the blackbox menu in some cases).

[flashjazzcat]

This is the advantage of having the "swap" button on the interface itself and monitored during SIO (by the PBI). No interrupts required, and virtually nothing can mask the button.

[MEtalGuy66]

@metalguy66: I thought you were speaking also about MyIDE ][ when you wrote about MyIDE. About the first editions of MyIDE I agree completely with you.

 

Its not "the first editions of MyIDE".. If anything, the first editions (before atarimax started making them) were the ones LEAST plagued by timing and drive compatability issues.

 

 

[Marius]

Ok here is a situation: how do I do this with IDE+

 

1. I use Syncalc ... this is a DISKbased spreadsheet. Syncalc is booted, and then the bootdisk is no longer needed.

 

2. You only can have DATAdisk on D1: or D2: in Syncalc.

 

3. I'm using the program... and suddenly I need a file that is not on my currently mounted datadisk on D2. How do I realise this on IDE+ while Syncalc won't let me press reset?

 

That's an existing situation in real life atari use.

 

With BlackBox, or with MyIDE ... I simply press the 'button', I make my changes, and I continue.

 

The 'point' here is, that when you use a floppy only system, you always can flip disks, change disks, whenever you want: the diskdrive simply gives you the physical ability to change disks whenever you want (even when you have the guts on a rotating floppy if you REALLY want that). I think a harddisk interface for atari 8bit computer should comes as close as possible to the possibilities of a real floppy drive, since that is the 'native' storage device for this computer.

 

I'm not picking on the IDE+ ... absolutely not... I can't wait to start using it... but I would like to explain WHY the missing button, is a real loss.

[drac030]

As far as I can speak about it (not being the hardware designer), the new run will be rev. D and it will probably have the required button.

[MEtalGuy66]

Its not just a question of having the button.. What the black box does when you press that button is first, copy the zero page, display list, and the 8k of ram that the partition manager is going to occupy onto SRAM on the black box.. WHen you exit "back to the system", it copies it all back and allows the machine to continue as if nothing had happened.

[drac030]

The button is the hardware part of the matter. What pressing it will do to the IDE+ settings and general behaviour, is another thing.

[Marius]

@metalguy66

 

I have been always been very curious what exactly happens as soon as you press that button, since hardware registers can't be read out (well most of them) ... so I'm wondering how it is possible that it returns to almost any program without any problem. Only player missiles are gone (due to this reason I guess).

[krupkaj]

I would like one too