Looking for Five Apple II Books in PDF Format

[Osgeld]

I already told you that you were wrong. The Compute books on BASIC for the Apple II are awesome and written for pre-teen kids. There may be 2 python books for this same audience, but thats it. The older apple programming books are filled with "type this for instant reward" small programs. this type of learning which inspired a whole generation of programmers is hard to find today. If you don't get this, then you fit right in with the majority of the apple community.

 

 

those are for preteen kids in the 1980's though, welcome to 2013, if A kid has any intrest in becoming the next apple hacker the info is available along with a community to hold their hands well past the contents of a 25 year old book, compute is not going to tell you how to bit bang a SSC card, originally maxed out at 9600 on some machines to talk at 115200 baud, a apple magic copywrite 1980 is not going to tell you how to do 560x192 mono on a II+

 

not talking about me.. you may want to catch up on the discussion from the beginning.. this thread is just the latest chapter.

 

yea, I am talking to you, you brought up how hard it was to program the darn machines, its not, its so much simpler than atari or commie machines cause your not dealing with a handfull of OTHER chipsets that require magic to even talk to

 

your making a mountian of a mole hill, cause compute is not scanned you cant program an apple, sorry, theres hundreds of text files detailing 30 years worth of bit twiddling and a active community ready to awnser any question cause they are starved to death for any conversation, but thats not good enough as I understand.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Osgeld

[dudeslife]

those are for preteen kids in the 1980's though, welcome to 2013, if A kid has any intrest in becoming the next apple hacker the info is available along with a community to hold their hands well past the contents of a 25 year old book, compute is not going to tell you how to bit bang a SSC card, originally maxed out at 9600 on some machines to talk at 115200 baud, a apple magic copywrite 1980 is not going to tell you how to do 560x192 mono on a II+

 

yea, I am talking to you, you brought up how hard it was to program the darn machines, its not, its so much simpler than atari or commie machines cause your not dealing with a handfull of OTHER chipsets that require magic to even talk to

 

You obviously have no grasp on the points I am making. I am guessing English is not your native language? You are making an argument totally irrelevant to what I am saying. Try reading my comments again and responding or let it go. You may be impressing yourself by rattling off specs, but we all have the same gear so no one reading this is saying "wow..."

[Osgeld]

lets define your point first

 

was it

 

the apple community is a ghetto

 

though theres an active community that will tell you exactly what you want to know with no effort?

 

or was it

 

neckbeards that think hunting thru a mountain of halfass pdfs is part of the fun of programming

 

cause those neckbeards in the ghetto will point you directly to what you need to know in eactly what file you need to have to get that information?

 

or was it

 

there is no regeneration in the retro apple community

 

even though when I rejoined 5 years ago there has been plenty of new faces, sometimes weekly?

 

maybe if you dropped the attidue that its a bunch of grumpy old farts clinging to their COMPLETELY USELESS 25 YEAR OLD BOOKS you would involve yourself and find out how to do something with the A2 other than bitch an moan on how kids that dont care (meaning you) cant program it?

Edited March 29, 2013 by Osgeld

[dudeslife]

haha, I was right. you totally missed the point. somebody got his feelings hurt.

[Osgeld]

sorry friend you missed the point, you moan about not having books when there is at least a dozen people online every single day at

 

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/comp.sys.apple2

 

that will do just about anything to share information, resources, code and knoledge, while nearly bending over backwards to make your apple 2 project a sucess becuase you cant get a copy of compute

 

sorry your too lazy to enjoy the fruits available

[Keatah]

If one is suffiently motivated they'll use the materials at hand. I learned programming in 2 segments. The first being the syntax and mechanics behind each command. Short 20 line programs were great for this. 2nd came the logic of how they fit together.

 

Then later on as I wanted to do useful things (like managing a BBS log), I'd simply think through the problem and fit the commands into a master plan. Like learning the shapes of a puzzle and getting the lay of the land. Then assembling stuff.

[akator]

I don't think this is about whether people can program or learn to program without the period materials. The point is that because those materials are not digitally available, there is no choice. Choice is good and creates the most options for learning styles and personalities.

 

Being forced to join an online group or community and having to "ask experts" for what should otherwise be easily obtainable information is silly. Constricting the information may be a good ego boost for "the experts," but it restricts options for learning styles and personalities. "Please master, teach me your guarded secrets. I will be your indentured apprentice and be forced to do unnecessary shit because I'm living in the Dark Ages and have no choice." Last time I checked, this was the 21st century and that kind of crap has become unnecessary.

 

For the Apple II community to survive and thrive, it needs to open up to the rest of the world like the other classic computing communities have. That means making as much information easily available as possible including classic manuals, texts, charts, articles, as well as that more modern information that supposedly makes some of the classic info "obsolete."

 

Apple II stalwarts will be happy with the hardware and software developments that result from unlocking those resources. Living in that "gated community" makes people feel more secure, but it also makes things stagnant and enforces the status quo. Let go of the fear, be free, and embrace growth and development.

Edited March 29, 2013 by akator

[Osgeld]

the thing is IMO the lack of elder books really opens up creativity

 

sure its an apple II, your not going to make an XL quality demo with the machine no matter how greybeard jesus your are, but without the limitations and restrictions of the past your almost more free to pull some more bull with what you have.

 

again your not going to write a 1st place compo using basic for 3rd graders, and your going to have to dig deeper than the skin that is the available documentation. other platforms have books, we have people... I find people much more dynamic and interactive

[Keatah]

It *is* important to get as much books, rags, and text material out there as possible. Every author has a different style which may or may not appeal (you).

 

The more variety the better.

[Keatah]

Agreed. No compo winners on 2 series via 3rd grade basic tutorials.

 

But they did an Amiga Boing! demo with 3 medium-sized balls.

[akator]

I find people much more dynamic and interactive

 

And I don't when I'm trying to accomplish something. When I'm busy people get in my way and destroy my momentum and flow. Give me a book or the internet to find my answers... making me interact with people when I'm trying to accomplish something disrupts my process.

 

We need different resources because we have different personalities, learning styles, methodologies, and work flow.

 

If I had more of the period materials as a resource, I would be able to do more with the Apple II. It's that simple.

Edited March 29, 2013 by akator

[Osgeld]

and theres tons of it for apple, its not all formatted in a pretty pdf but every single aspect of the machine is out there with as many ways to do it as possible on a limited machine

 

I think you understand it best, its one step above an altar, how many switches can you toggle before it is all known, that still gets pushed, but not in great leaps n bounds as later "game systems with a keyboard" which have greater capibility and mystry

[The Usotsuki]

PS: IP piracy in the past has done a ton of good for commodore and atari users, cause look at where they are today... gone

And what are you doing here on AtariAge, pray tell?

[Osgeld]

And I don't when I'm trying to accomplish something. When I'm busy people get in my way and destroy my momentum and flow. Give me a book or the internet to find my answers... making me interact with people when I'm trying to accomplish something disrupts my process.

 

We need different resources because we have different personalities, learning styles, methodogies, and work flow.

 

If I had more of the period materials as a resource, I would be able to do more with the Apple II. It's that simple.

 

you have tons of texts for the apple 2, I find books useless when I want to get something done... need a poke, would you rather google a text file, hit f3 and be done, or read 2 chapters to do the same?

 

again another minus for books, we know what these machines are capible of, if we get stuck at least we can ask someone decades later

 

also I am NOT against making archives of books, but "I want to read half a book to make a tone" doesnt make the argument of " i want to get stuff done" when its the third link on google

 

10 FOR L = 770 TO 790: READ V: POKE L,V: NEXT L
20 DATA 173,48,192,136,208,5,206,1,3,240,9
30 DATA 202,208,245,174,0,3,76,2,3,96

 

• 
   
  

[Osgeld]

And what are you doing here on AtariAge, pray tell?

 

there is more to atari age than atari, and if you have not noticed I stick to coleco, sega, classic computers, and hardware, all are in atari age

[Keatah]

Without going off-topic, it would be nice to see some sort of blitter made from simple cheap parts. Just something to push databits around memory.. There was a project like this in some obscure book.

[Osgeld]

theres the arcade board for the apple II, its a TMS chip but hardly any software supported it

 

otherwise there are some semi-crappy micro solutions avialable, I have a 240x200 NTSC mono display running on a atmega1284, the propeller can push multicolor VGA, both from interal processes

Edited March 29, 2013 by Osgeld

[+wood_jl]

PS: IP piracy in the past has done a ton of good for commodore and atari users, cause look at where they are today... gone

 

???? I thought the Atari and Commodore users are here. Are they not? Gone???

 

 

Experts are great, but they're not mutually exclusive, vis-a-vis the books. Both would be great. When a newbie comes into a message forum (such as this one) and starts asking the same basic question that's been answered in 100 threads over time and is in some FAQs (guilty here, I think everyone's done it a little), people don't seem to enjoy it, and encourage a forum search. At least a forum search or FAQ read is a solo endeavor. So is a book. If you don't find your answer in the forum search, FAQ, or book, then ask an expert. Isn't this a good way to do it? So the books are of some value, although I'm sure the latest, most sophisticated techniques aren't in the books. The kind of newbie who's going to benefit the most from the book (probably someone like me) isn't going ot need to know about that advanced stuff anyway - at least not at this juncture, probably for a long time, and will possibly never get good enough to. But they can still have some fun with the old books, even if it's "kiddie stuff" to the experts. To someone who's never really used an Apple II, I can't see how books (and experts too) can not be at least somewhat beneficial.

[Keatah]

theres the arcade board for the apple II, its a TMS chip but hardly any software supported it.

 

I was thinking something much simpler. Perhaps even something that'd need to be tied in at the memory bus level.

[potatohead]

Gone??

 

LOL. Yeah, hardly. Look, I like retro machines and I'm currently enjoying the Apple ][

 

Characterizing various groups of users and or places where they gather isn't productive. Frankly, it's in the best interests of everyone, on every machine, everywhere to encourage new discussion in all it's forms. Ideally, that kind of discussion competes and good stuff happens. And we all want good stuff to happen.

 

In order for that good stuff to happen, there needs to be a robust discussion, and I believe having that happen means expanding the places for discussion and the modes of discussion with the intent of there simply being more discussion, and with that more things happening, etc...

 

If you feel this is some kind of threat, know two things: 1. That's your problem. 2. It's not, k?

 

Re: Books.

 

Lots of reasons to preserve computing history. And frankly again, where there is more discussion, there is more preservation and where both of those are happening, there is more goings on in general. Look around. These things are true. They will be true for the Apple as well, unless people really want to make them not true, and does anybody really want that? No. Right?

 

Right?

 

Time to move on then.

[dudeslife]

again your not going to write a 1st place compo using basic for 3rd graders,

 

No but 3rd graders can learn to program using a book written for 3rd graders which is why your argument is a big bag of fail. You have 20 posts here but half give the impression that you are unable to read. Try reading the forum first, then post.

Edited March 29, 2013 by dudeslife

[potatohead]

Re: Spiffy graphics system.

 

I kind of stalled out on this for a number of reasons, but taking a capable micro like the Propeller and putting it into one of the slots that has video signal access, etc... would enable existing software to display better / in new ways, and anybody that wants to write to it, simply could, presenting the product of that in various ways. Maybe this will get done someday. Maybe it will get done on the current second generation of that chip, which is proving to be awesome so far. (it's in FPGA right now, awaiting fab)

 

I go back and forth on this. Part of me really wants to extend the Apple a little, maybe enabling it to be a development station of sorts. That would be really cool, but not too many users. Another part of me wonders whether or not that makes any real sense. But dammit, putting cool hardware into Apples is part of what it's all about. Who knows?

 

If it could be done cheap and easy, like some of the cards are, non NTSC users might really adopt it quickly. Apple artifact color makes using one without some kind of video assist in non-NTSC land way less than optimal. Could be a lot of growth come out of that, even when just used to render the display on component video / vga / PAL composite.

 

There was that Carte Blanche project with an FPGA and it could do cool stuff, but it was also pretty complex. High barrier to entry. On the other hand, using a capable micro on a card to do something like implement a blitter? People could get hold of that pretty easy and existing titles could benefit from hacks / reworks like we see on other machines.

 

There is that 20Mhz Z80 floating around out there. Can it write to the graphics memory? If so, man! Time to do speccy ports! That's the kind of discussion we see in these parts, and it's got a flavor I think appeals...

[dudeslife]

PS: IP piracy in the past has done a ton of good for commodore and atari users, cause look at where they are today... gone

 

does gone = outnumbering the appleII community 1000 to 1? Do you know why the AppleII users huddle together in an antiquated usenet group? because there are not enough of them to even make running a forum like this worth the effort. I am beginning to think you an alter ego troll.. what nick do you usually post with?

Edited March 29, 2013 by dudeslife

[Osgeld]

No but 3rd graders can learn to program using a book written for 3rd graders which is why your argument is a big bag of fail. You have 20 posts here but half give the impression that you are unable to read. Try reading the forum first, then post.

 

and no 3rd grader is going to benifit from reading a pdf of outdated material for a computer that no longer exists, so take your bag of fail and sack it

[Osgeld]

does gone = outnumbering the appleII community 1000 to 1? Do you know why the AppleII users huddle together in an antiquated usenet group? because there are not enough of them to even make running a forum like this worth the effort. I am beginning to think you an alter ego troll.. what nick do you usually post with?

 

cause they have been there since the 90's and forums come and go, but yet the usenet group has been there for decades as a common ground?

 

I like atari age, I like forums, but I have been able to access the usenet group from when my apple II was still a market selling PC, sorry no forum hosted by a private entity can match that at this time

Edited March 29, 2013 by Osgeld