Floppy disk memory too small to fit games on them

[borntorun]

I have a question for which I believe there might not be an answer. I have a 1040 STf with a 720K floppy drive. Many of the games and Automation compilations I want require disks with 800k-830k memory. Does anybody know of a solution to this problem?

[ParanoidLittleMan]

That's pretty common with Atari floppies. And your 720K floppy drive can handle such 800++ K floppies.

The question is how to write images onto floppies, and it depends from your equipment - if have PC with internal drive use Floppy Imager (FloImg).

If have USB floppy drive, then will be not able to write 800K.

You can write on Atari self, only problem is how to transfer data - some SW can split disk data, but all it is pretty much uncomfortable to use - needs lot of floppy changes.

[jblenkle]

I may be wrong, but if I recall correctly those disks are formatted differently than a standard disk. Whereas your standard ST format program only formats a floppy to 720k, certain formatting programs can add sectors or tracks to increase the capacity.

 

So basically if you are trying to copy one of those extended format disks to a 720k disk, it should fit with no problem because the formatting on it will be copied too.

 

If you are trying to copy files off one of those 800-830k disks onto a 720k disk, you need to find a formatting program that will allow you to format a 720k disk to a larger capacity. It's been awhile since I've messed with stuff like that so I can't really point you toward one.

 

I have a question for which I believe there might not be an answer. I have a 1040 STf with a 720K floppy drive. Many of the games and Automation compilations I want require disks with 800k-830k memory. Does anybody know of a solution to this problem?

[tjlazer]

Those 800+ kb images are simply custom disk formats that any Atari ST can handle. They were made by increasing the sectors and tracks on the disks.

 

http://www.atari-for...php?f=8&t=11708

 

What you can do is zip up the .ST or .MSA image, copy it to a 720k disk, then on the ST, unzip it, then write it back to a real disk. Two floppy drives or HD are needed for this.

 

Or get a PC with real floppy drive and use Floppy Image to write it to a real DSDD disk!

Edited May 13, 2013 by tjlazer

[ParanoidLittleMan]

...

So basically if you are trying to copy one of those extended format disks to a 720k disk, it should fit with no problem because the formatting on it will be copied too...

If you are trying to copy files off one of those 800-830k disks onto a 720k disk, you need to find a formatting program that will allow you to format a 720k disk to a larger capacity. It's been awhile since I've messed with stuff like that so I can't really point you toward one.

 

That's correct. But we have here something confusing and really stupid in fact - Windows XP and later usually recognises 800KB floppy , but you can not read or write files correct from/on it . Worst is that user gets not proper info that such format is not supported by Windows.

With special SW it is possible to add/extraxt files.

On Atari you can use many programs for format, which offer diverse formats, buit not all will be readable in Windows, PC and I mean here not readable even with special SW.

 

In case of floppy images - and they are only way for titles with RAW data (so, no visible files) imaging SW always has format option.

But here we have problem with some - those using WIndowses floppy driver - thay can not handle 800K (or 400) - like Wdfcopy.

 

Basically, for better readibility, formatting and writing on Atari self is best way. But that is troublesome without hard drive. And when man has hard drive uses floppies not much If PC and Atari floppies have similar head setting, then usually floppy written on PC is well readable.

[jblenkle]

Yeah, Windows XP throws a monkey wrench into copying/reading/writing weird format disks. As I said, I haven't messed with ST disks for quite awhile, but I've copied and made disk images of Coleco ADAM disks. I've never been able to do it using XP, but anything backwards of and including Windows ME seems to work. And I have a second computer set up to do this. I usually boot to an older version of DOS and run the appropriate utility from that.

 

I remember directly copying ST disks on my PC or using a program to write a disk image back to a real disk, but I'm fairly certain I haven't done it since I've installed Windows XP on my computer....it was probably more like back in the Windows 95 era...

 

That's correct. But we have here something confusing and really stupid in fact - Windows XP and later usually recognises 800KB floppy , but you can not read or write files correct from/on it . Worst is that user gets not proper info that such format is not supported by Windows.

With special SW it is possible to add/extraxt files.

On Atari you can use many programs for format, which offer diverse formats, buit not all will be readable in Windows, PC and I mean here not readable even with special SW.

 

In case of floppy images - and they are only way for titles with RAW data (so, no visible files) imaging SW always has format option.

But here we have problem with some - those using WIndowses floppy driver - thay can not handle 800K (or 400) - like Wdfcopy.

 

Basically, for better readibility, formatting and writing on Atari self is best way. But that is troublesome without hard drive. And when man has hard drive uses floppies not much If PC and Atari floppies have similar head setting, then usually floppy written on PC is well readable.

[tjlazer]

For those 800k + disks the only way is to use Floppy Image to read/write the disk image. You cannot add/manage files on those disks in Windows as the disk will be unreadable and windows will want to format the disk to 720k...

Edited May 14, 2013 by tjlazer

[npturton]

I used to file the end stops down on the floppy drives, that way you could manage to get 84 or even 85 tracks to a disk, giving over 900k on a standard 3.5" floppy

[Thorsten Günther]

For USB floppy users, the only faster method besides ZIPping and unZIPing would be using the great French tool MSA Converter:

 

http://msaconverter.free.fr/index-uk.html

 

This tool can not only create and browse ST and MSA disk archives, it can also convert ST to MSA (which may suffice in many cases because MSA is a compressed format) and split MSA images in those cases where the resulting image is still too large).

 

On the ST, JayMSA or MSA 2.3+ will then be the only tools needed to convert the image(s) back to a real disk.

[borntorun]

How do you get the MSA file on to a floppy disk, and how do you get a .PRG file on to a floppy disk using a USB drive?

[ParanoidLittleMan]

It is simple: format floppy on PC to standard 720K - format a: /t:80 /n:9 (Command prompt)

Then just copy files on with Total Commander or some other file manager.

 

What is not simple and comfortable is work with only 1 floppy drive on Atari - lot of disk swaps will be asked.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Last I checked, 3.5 inch floppies exist which hold 1.44Mb. If fact they are far more common than 720kb. Maybe you could somehow get a discount 1.44Mb floppy drive and wire it up to the old Atari? Is it possible to rewire the floppy cable from a "modern" floppy drive? I have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about.

[RodLightning]

Last I checked, 3.5 inch floppies exist which hold 1.44Mb. If fact they are far more common than 720kb. Maybe you could somehow get a discount 1.44Mb floppy drive and wire it up to the old Atari? Is it possible to rewire the floppy cable from a "modern" floppy drive? I have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about.

 

Finding the right make and model floppy drive makes this doable. Some floppy drives have jumpers you can change to suit the Atari ST, some do not. This thread goes into detail:

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/194915-faulty-atari-ste-floppy-possible-to-replace/

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Basically any standatd 1.44 MB drive can be used on Atari ST(E). In DD (720K, but it means not that are restricted only to 720K, may go up to some 920) mode.

But you need to jumper it as drive A, + possibly some other things to set. Cable must be straight, without twist.

Problems may appear by floppy disk change - only some older drives will support Ataris not regular floppy change detection. Solveable with simple logic.

But it is better to go on 720K drive - will read and write DD format more reliable.

And it is possible to work in HD format, so 1.44 MB and more, but it needs special circuit and possibly faster FDC chip.

 

All this is discussed zillion times already. Better do some search around before asking all at again.

[jens]

You can take ID1 floppy drives and use a twisted floppy drive cable to get around the need to solder them to ID0.

[borntorun]

Bringing this thread back from the grave...I have some more questions. I downloaded the French MSA converter utility, which has been helpful for some files. However, I am still having issues with bigger files and the 400K files, which WFDcopy seems to have difficulty with. Is there a way to split the larger files into smaller size files that my USB floppy drive can manage using WFDcopy? Keep in mind, I am pretty new to all of this and have almost zero technical expertise.

[borntorun]

Also, are there any sites/archives of games that are only in 720k format?

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Also, are there any sites/archives of games that are only in 720k format?

 

Forget idea about using only 720K - you will find very limited number of SW on such Atari floppies. I don't think that anyone bothered to make such list - time is expensive. But if you insist, just DL stuff from Planetemu and other sites, and can see easily by ST image sizes which is what.

Much smarter would be to invest in some mass storage. If UltraSatan is too expensive for you look for Satandisk. Or get some old PC with internal floppy drive for free

[tjlazer]

Here are some...

http://www.vintagecomputercafe.com/atari/ST/Originals/?C=S;O=A

Edited January 6, 2015 by tjlazer

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Here are some...

 

http://www.vintagecomputercafe.com/atari/ST/Originals/?C=S;O=A

 

Anyone, who named it "Originals" should be hang high Example: Renegade (Mastertronic) is originally on SS floppy, and copy protected, of course. Here, we have another game on disk (Rocket Racer), size is not standard - 81 tracks, what is not used in commercial releases , and on top of all BS there is "cracked by..." on screens in games Some people really won't learn basic things ..

 

[tjlazer]

That would be me. Come find me. It's a collection of cracktro free games. Or so I thought! I'll remove those cracktro ones. Is it just those 2?

Edited January 6, 2015 by tjlazer

[ParanoidLittleMan]

That would be me. Come find me. It's a collection of cracktro free games. Or so I thought! I'll remove those cracktro ones. Is it just those 2?

You should just rename it. I don't know what "cracktro" means. In any case, traces of cracks are visible, and even if not, this are cracks. Surely much more than those 2.

Another problem is as in example - that only 1 game from 2 on disk is listed.

As I see, there is another DIR, called "games". So, if you did not check all it , better would be to move whole "ORIGINALS" content there.

[Tenorman]

Also, are there any sites/archives of games that are only in 720k format?

 

 

I used to only have a USB floppy drive available and that basically limited me to games that could be written to and played back from a standard DOS formatted 720K disk. I actually had the best luck with games that were patched to run from a hard drive such as below:

 

http://dbug.kicks-ass.net/patch.php

 

The game needs to be small enough to fit on a single floppy, but a lot of these will work.

 

This is VERY limiting though. Go find yourself an older computer with a real floppy controller and floppy drive, and use FloImg to write all the weird image formats to your heart's content. You'll be much happier.

[tjlazer]

You should just rename it. I don't know what "cracktro" means. In any case, traces of cracks are visible, and even if not, this are cracks. Surely much more than those 2.

Another problem is as in example - that only 1 game from 2 on disk is listed.

As I see, there is another DIR, called "games". So, if you did not check all it , better would be to move whole "ORIGINALS" content there.

 

You don't know what cracktro means? You've never seen a game boot up with an intro with crack credits/demo/music before the game finishes loading? That is what a CrackTro is. Crack Intro. Well these games are games I have found over the years that do not have any of these intros, or demos, just the game as original as you can get it these days short of teleporting yourself to 1988 and driving to your friendly neighborhood Atari ST dealer and purchasing the game yourself. (or maybe going to eBay and buying some original games lol)

Edited January 7, 2015 by tjlazer

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Well, truth is that I don't like all those, often aggressive intros before games. I don't think that some game or any other SW is right place to show your demo coding skills.

We have demo scene, even demo competitions for that purpose. But original is original, and crack is crack. If you want "originals" then need to use floppy image format what can store copy protections too, + by need to supply manual(s) too. All it is now easy to store online, and there are sites holding lot of it. Here is your mistake #1 .

Another is that you did not check it. If there is cracker's message over title screen that's far from original. That's disrespect of someone's work. And by me much worse than adding intro before game.

All in all, I (or anyone else) don't need time machine, eBay or whatever, what costs money. Originals are online, in TOSEC archive - for free.

Not to mention work on hard disk adaptations - the counter is currently at #874

 

P.S. I desparately need original of Fireball (Microprose) .