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Ice-T XE 2.74 released

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#26 Android8675 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:23 PM

Er, I, umm, love you too...


Dude...
 

Wow, if this works with the Incogneto I'd love to hear about it, it would be so cool to have this running on an 800 :)


Confirmed! It runs GREAT on an 800 with an Incognito! Gotta disable the built in SDX, I tried to run it with SDX 4.46 from the Atari Partition on the Incognito and it said it wouldn't run with a cart installed.
Can I field any questions for ya?

Long answer: also no, with the reasons being Philosophical, Programmatic and Practical.
 
Philosophically speaking, nobody forced me to write Ice-T. When I started I could just as easily have set the aging Atari aside, scrounged an old PC clone from somewhere, hooked up a modem and used Kermit or Telix to happily do the same things I did online, freeing the spare time from several years of my life for other things. I wrote Ice-T because of the challenge involved in making the Atari with its limited capabilities do something it was not designed to do, where others have tried and failed. As far as I'm concerned once you replace the Atari's display chip with a modern alternative it's not an Atari anymore. It's a new platform, perhaps interesting to some but I may as well spend my time writing an Android app - at least there I have the potential for more than a few dozen users.
 
Programmatically, keep in mind that Ice-T despite its professional look is a big ugly hack written many years ago in assembly by a teenager with a lot of time on his hands (mostly by putting school at the bottom of the priority list) but very little knowledge of software architecture. Which is probably just as well because a similarly featured but properly maintainable and structured application would run slower and probably not fit in 128K - it's bursting at the seams as it is. More to the point, there is no single "display a character" function that I could replace with the VBXE equivalent; virtually all of the code is written around the bitmapped 80-column display, from the VBI that handles the fine scrolling to the menu system to the code that flashes the cursor. Basically we are talking about an almost complete rewrite.
 
Which brings me to the Practical part of my answer: the 80-column display is the most interesting aspect and "killer feature" of Ice-T. It's the reason for Ice-T's existence and is where I spent most of my time and effort. With VBXE it becomes redundant, and once you've gotten rid of it, what's left? The terminal emulation and file transfer code is not rocket science, it's just ugly because it's in assembly. You would probably want to throw it out and reimplement it, preferably in a higher level language like C. Or possibly just port existing C code from another emulator, such as Minicom (an open source terminal emulator for Linux). The reason you would now be able to do this is that without the bitmapped 80 columns you've just freed up about 90% of CPU time and around 50% of memory use, so you can now afford to write much cleaner code at the expense of a little bloat.
 
So in any case, if anyone would like to take Ice-T's code as a foundation for a VBXE based terminal emulator, I'm not going to stop you but don't expect me to do it. :)


Pass, but damn great answer. What's your opinion on the Dual Pokey upgrade?

#27 itaych OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:23 PM

Metalguy, I would be glad to send you a cart, and you can try the IP65 stack for yourself and see what you think.

Heh, maybe this is just a trick he's pulling to get a free cart? :)

Edited by itaych, Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:25 PM.


#28 danwinslow ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:30 PM

No, he wouldn't do that, and anyway the carts are free to any developer. I have to say I dont' really understand why he is so extremely negative about the DC. I have a lot of respect for him, so I wish I understood.

#29 MEtalGuy66 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:46 PM

Ok, last I saw, the "telnet" program you guys had was slower than death.. If youve improved it since then, I stand corrected.. It still doesnt change the fact that whatever kind of stripped-down TCP stack you are running is still going to have 10 times the overhead of any standard R: handler, and ICE-T has had problems with certain R: handlers in the past that limited it's useful baudrate. This is of no discredit to ICE-T,of course.. Its just a question of the reality of available resources, cpu time, etc.

Sorry if I sound hostile, but I assure you, Thats just your perception. I just hate to see people waste money on a device that is clearly designed WRONG for the platform. Whatever the dragon cart manages to do, an embedded IP solution will do much faster and with a much more robust version of TCP..

#30 danwinslow ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:55 PM

If you've got a cart, you can find the new stuff :

http://atariage.com/...65#entry2734492

If you want a cart, let me know. By the way, we made very clear to original purchasers that there wasn't really any software available so if they bought they were stuck with writing their own or using Contiki, so its not like we were trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. Previously, I also had my doubts about what was possible, but I feel very positive about the DC and the new IP65 stack.

W1k has tested the telnet extensively, so he could maybe chime in with his experiences.

An embedded IP solution sounds great, let me know when we have one and I'll write some software for it.

Edited by danwinslow, Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:56 PM.


#31 MEtalGuy66 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:00 PM

Last thing I'll say is that a) I dont want a free cart.. I would seriously never develop anything for it, so it would be unfair to take advantage of that. Let someone who really does intend to try to do something with it have it instead..
B) I seriously am in no wqay discrediting your work, Dan, Its amazing that you managed to get the thing to work as well as you have. I just know from a hardware standpoint that there is a much better way to do it and theres no piece of 6502 code you can write that will ofset the huge difference, and I think you know that.. But, nevertheless, congratz on what you have managed to get it to do. It's a "neat project" if not an incredibly useful/optimal device.

#32 itaych OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:21 PM

I tried to run it with SDX 4.46 from the Atari Partition on the Incognito and it said it wouldn't run with a cart installed.


Have you tried using the X command? (type X ICET)
 

What's your opinion on the Dual Pokey upgrade?


Adding a second Pokey for stereo sound is more like a memory upgrade or OS replacement. If on the other hand you had replaced Pokey with a backward compatible hardware chip that also added stereo sound, MIDI support, SID emulation and 48khz audio sampling then my attitude would be similar to VBXE.

If you have any questions that are too specific for posting in the forum, no problem, PM me.

Edited by itaych, Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:23 PM.


#33 AtariGeezer ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:55 PM

If you've got a cart, you can find the new stuff :

http://atariage.com/...65#entry2734492

If you want a cart, let me know. By the way, we made very clear to original purchasers that there wasn't really any software available so if they bought they were stuck with writing their own or using Contiki, so its not like we were trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. Previously, I also had my doubts about what was possible, but I feel very positive about the DC and the new IP65 stack.

W1k has tested the telnet extensively, so he could maybe chime in with his experiences.

An embedded IP solution sounds great, let me know when we have one and I'll write some software for it.

So far the latest IP65 Stack works pretty darn good and as soon as I can spend some time on it, I'll be developing some apps for it :)



#34 MrFish OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:45 PM

So far the latest IP65 Stack works pretty darn good and as soon as I can spend some time on it, I'll be developing some apps for it :)

 

I just tested out Telnet / IP65 with the Dragon Cart for the first time here. It looks pretty good to me so far. Compared to running Telnet on Contiki with the Dragon Cart, it's a world of difference. Telnet on Contiki with the Dragon Cart was unusable, frankly.


Edited by MrFish, Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:00 PM.


#35 Android8675 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:01 PM

Have you tried using the X command? (type X ICET)
 

Adding a second Pokey for stereo sound is more like a memory upgrade or OS replacement. If on the other hand you had replaced Pokey with a backward compatible hardware chip that also added stereo sound, MIDI support, SID emulation and 48khz audio sampling then my attitude would be similar to VBXE.

If you have any questions that are too specific for posting in the forum, no problem, PM me.


I'll try X, forgot about that, and thanks, I might bug you now and again. Gonna go order a second Pokey for my 800 and 130xe.

#36 russg OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:07 PM

Ha Ha. Yes there were modem commands that need be done. I got out my modem command book. To init I did:
AT&e1s95=46S0=255s11=60 Which was enable re-train(whatever that was)verbose connect results,255 rings to answer,tone dial duration. I have lots of notes.
put an 8 in s37 (ats37= 8 ) for 4800 baud followed by a ATN0. I have a modern PC serial port plugged into a PCI slot as com3. It is for my APE interface. I couldn't get it
to recognize my 2400 baud modem for PC DOS Procomm terminal software. That may be because I'm using DOS emulation (DOSBOX).
Itay's quick start works well to telnet on Altirra 2.3 emulation. I haven't tried the dial-up to telnet that he also has in his instructions. I have a fax line at my house now.
I'm thinking of cranking up my BBS Express, registered, but that would disable my fax. I could limit it to 9PM to 9AM.

New day. Trying to play with it (ICET850.AR0) in emulation. I follow instructions on easy setup. But when I go return return to enter term mode, I get fast 'j' lower case
j's going, filling the screen and scrolling along. If I hit shift-cntrl-h to hang up, the 'j's stop and a ATHU shows. But now if I touch a key the scrolling j's start again.
I'm going to see what happens with a real Atari, and maybe try to read instructions of doing telnet on a real Atari.
I followed instructions and was able to telnet in emulations the other day.

Edited by russg, Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:08 PM.


#37 itaych OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:13 PM

What on earth is ICET850.AR0 ?

#38 bf2k+ OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:53 PM

What on earth is ICET850.AR0 ?

MyDOS Autorun.Sys file?



#39 itaych OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:06 PM

There is no file named ICET850 in any of my releases. I want to understand what russg is doing because he's doing something wrong.

#40 russg OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:49 PM

There is no file named ICET850 in any of my releases. I want to understand what russg is doing because he's doing something wrong.

Yes, I'm doing something wrong. The ICET850.AR0 is from a 3/27/2007 .atr I have in my files. It is a MyDOS 4.53 .ATR with the .AR0, ICET.DOC VIEW80.COM and ICET.DAT.
It certainly works well. Now, I think I'll take my medicine and go to bed. Wait. One more thing. The .ATR is named ICE-T 80-COLUMN TERMINAL PROGRAM (128K).ATR
Maybe that will jog your memory. How I got to using it instead of the Ice-T_XE_2.74.zip ATR with icet.xex on it, escapes me. I'll try icet.xex later.

Edited by russg, Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:01 PM.


#41 wood_jl OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:55 PM

One of the finest feelings one can experience on AtariAge is when Atari "heroes" from the heyday come on here and post.  I mean seeing the people posting who I spent my youth reading their names in Atari magazines is uniquely pleasing.  Even better than that is when they continue to support the machine!   Even better than that is when their stuff "rocked" back in the day, and continues to improve!    Thanks!!!  (and that's an understatement).

 

So good of you to participate here, and what an incredible program.  (That's another understatement.)

 

I remember seeing Stephen J. Carden's name in ATASCII on my screen too (back in the day) and it's great to see him post, too.

 

We also have some incredible modern-day Atari heroes here, too.  They know who they are, and they're posting in this thread, too.  What a wonderful world is is, for the Atari enthusiast, when all of this is considered!

 

Thanks again!



#42 itaych OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:16 PM

The ICET850.AR0 is from a 3/27/2007 .atr I have in my files.


That would explain why you're encountering a bug I fixed last year. And I have no idea where that disk image came from, someone probably prepended the 850 handler to the Ice-T executable and put it online.

#43 russg OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:11 AM

That would explain why you're encountering a bug I fixed last year. And I have no idea where that disk image came from, someone probably prepended the 850 handler to the Ice-T executable and put it online.

OK, I read the ICET.DOC and see the 'jjjjjjjj' has been fixed in Altirra emulation. So, new day, and sad to say ICET.XEX CRC32 $99189C2A 33040 bytes 9/25/13 2.74 works in Altirra, but
doesn't work with my 2400 modem and 256K 800XL. The PRCONN.HND, with and without renaming it RS232.COM, but loading it myself doesn't help. And my PRC.HND still works with ICET850.AR0.
I set baud at 2400 and go to terminal and I can't get good communication with the modem to do AT commands, like atdt12149872135, or even just atz OK.
Let me see if I can describe better.
Load Sparta3.2g (I tried the MyDOS 4.53 also). Load my PRC.HND and then load ICET.XEX and get the opening screen. right arrow over to 'settings' and set baud 2400, hit ENTER
and left arrow over to 'terminal' and hit enter, once or twice and there is no communication with the modem. Nothing prints in the term window and my modem lights that indicate
keypress don't flash. OH, I just looked over and, after typing this I see the screen is doing the 'j' thing, but with '?'s. ... shift cntrl h doesn't stop the ?s like
it stopped the 'j's in 2.72 in Altirra 2.3 emulation. 2.72 works fine, 2.74 I can't get. I'm working with a PRC, 2400 baud modem, 256K XL, serial RS232 APE interface
and green screen monitor. The APE SIO cable goes to the PRC jack and the PRC SIO to the 800XL. ... If I hit BREAK, it does the same thing, but about 10 times faster.
Hit another key and goes back to normal screen ? fill.

Edited by russg, Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:20 AM.


#44 itaych OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:42 AM

...

Russ, can you do the same experiment with version 2.73? Link here.



#45 itaych OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:12 PM

OK, I read the ICET.DOC and see the 'jjjjjjjj' has been fixed in Altirra emulation.

I'm working with a PRC, 2400 baud modem, 256K XL, serial RS232 APE interface and green screen monitor. The APE SIO cable goes to the PRC jack and the PRC SIO to the 800XL.


The 'jjjjj' bug also affected real hardware in certain circumstances, and several users complained about it. Altirra (and its author) helped me reproduce and solve the bug, but this was certainly not an emulator-only issue.

I've now ran Ice-T on a real machine with various configurations and could not reproduce your problem, but unfortunately I don't have a PRC to test with so I can't reproduce your setup exactly.

However, I don't really understand how you're connecting your modem. The P:R:Connection should connect directly to the Atari's peripheral port on one side, and directly to the modem on the other. The APE cable is not supposed to be involved here. Can you be a little clearer on what you're doing?

Another thought I've had is that if the "ICET850" worked for you, then instead of the PRC.HND try loading ATARI850.HND. This will reproduce what the "ICET850" is doing (it loads the 850 handler, then loads the regular Ice-T binary). The 850 handler is not actually specific to the 850 as it downloads the device handler from the remote hardware, so it just might work for you.

 

If none of this helps please test version 2.73 as I requested in my post above.



#46 russg OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:21 PM

The 'jjjjj' bug also affected real hardware in certain circumstances, and several users complained about it. Altirra (and its author) helped me reproduce and solve the bug, but this was certainly not an emulator-only issue.

I've now ran Ice-T on a real machine with various configurations and could not reproduce your problem, but unfortunately I don't have a PRC to test with so I can't reproduce your setup exactly.

However, I don't really understand how you're connecting your modem. The P:R:Connection should connect directly to the Atari's peripheral port on one side, and directly to the modem on the other. The APE cable is not supposed to be involved here. Can you be a little clearer on what you're doing?

Another thought I've had is that if the "ICET850" worked for you, then instead of the PRC.HND try loading ATARI850.HND. This will reproduce what the "ICET850" is doing (it loads the 850 handler, then loads the regular Ice-T binary). The 850 handler is not actually specific to the 850 as it downloads the device handler from the remote hardware, so it just might work for you.
 
If none of this helps please test version 2.73 as I requested in my post above.

My memory isn't so good. I tried icet.com 2.73. Same results using APE cable and my original PRC.HND, with booting from MyDOS4.53.atr. I don't think I tried the ATARI850.HND.
Then I got rid of the APE cable and booted MyDOS4.53 from a 1050. Tried my PRC.HND and ATARI850.HND, same results, only repeating 'Q's. What happens when I enter
the terminal the left Bf fills up and then the screen fills up. The right {:[...........] stays empty.
Your question about the PRC. It has a fixed SIO cable and a single SIO socket and the RS232 port for the modem cable. It is like an 850, but the 850 just has four
SIO sockets. With the 850, you plug a SIO cable from the front left jack to the computer SIO and plug a cable from the second jack to the 1050, and the RS232
ATari specific modem cable from the 9 pin socket to the 25 pin modem jack.
If I remember the PRC.HND works best with the 2.72 and the real Atari, also the Altirra emulator seems to like my PRC.HND. The original PRC handler is 1200 or so bytes.
I usually use SpDOS 3.2g, but this time I only used MyDOS 4.53.
The PRC fixed cable I plug to computer SIO and the 1050 cable to the open, single, SIO PRC jack.
EDit: I take that back. When I boot the MyDOS 4.53 with the ICET850.AR0, 2.72 comes up and there is no loading of PRC.HND, so the R: handler is already in
the ICET850.AR0, as one might expect. It works fine with real modem. booting from 1050, no APE cable.

Attached Files

  • Attached File  PRC.zip   1.32KB   152 downloads

Edited by russg, Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:49 PM.


#47 itaych OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:55 PM

With your PRC and 1050 setup, boot MyDOS. Load ATARI850.HND. When the DOS menu comes back load ICET.COM from 2.73 or 2.74. Does this work?



#48 BillC OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:16 PM

My memory isn't so good. I tried icet.com 2.73. Same results using APE cable and my original PRC.HND, with booting from MyDOS4.53.atr. I don't think I tried the ATARI850.HND.
Then I got rid of the APE cable and booted MyDOS4.53 from a 1050. Tried my PRC.HND and ATARI850.HND, same results, only repeating 'Q's. What happens when I enter
the terminal the left Bf fills up and then the screen fills up. The right {:[...........] stays empty.
Your question about the PRC. It has a fixed SIO cable and a single SIO socket and the RS232 port for the modem cable. It is like an 850, but the 850 just has four
SIO sockets.
With the 850, you plug a SIO cable from the front left jack to the computer SIO and plug a cable from the second jack to the 1050, and the RS232
ATari specific modem cable from the 9 pin socket to the 25 pin modem jack.
If I remember the PRC.HND works best with the 2.72 and the real Atari, also the Altirra emulator seems to like my PRC.HND. The original PRC handler is 1200 or so bytes.
I usually use SpDOS 3.2g, but this time I only used MyDOS 4.53.
The PRC fixed cable I plug to computer SIO and the 1050 cable to the open, single, SIO PRC jack.
EDit: I take that back. When I boot the MyDOS 4.53 with the ICET850.AR0, 2.72 comes up and there is no loading of PRC.HND, so the R: handler is already in
the ICET850.AR0, as one might expect. It works fine with real modem. booting from 1050, no APE cable.

The 850 only has 2 SIO ports, it does have 4 serial ports of which only port 1 has all the handshaking lines.



#49 russg OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:27 PM

With your PRC and 1050 setup, boot MyDOS. Load ATARI850.HND. When the DOS menu comes back load ICET.COM from 2.73 or 2.74. Does this work?

(BillC) right two SIO ports, 4 rs232 ports on the back of the 850.)
No, doesn't work. Same thing. I boot MyDOS 4.53 from 1050, load ATARI850.HND, then load 2.73 and 2.74 and get the flying 'Q's. No modem communication.
Also, ICET850.AR0 works fine without loading any R: handler. However, if I push the OPTION button, flying 'Q's start, then stop when I let go.
Edit: I just tried to repeat the flying Qs with OPTION using 2.72, no go, it doesn't happen.

Edited by russg, Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:31 PM.


#50 russg OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:17 PM

(BillC) right two SIO ports, 4 rs232 ports on the back of the 850.)
No, doesn't work. Same thing. I boot MyDOS 4.53 from 1050, load ATARI850.HND, then load 2.73 and 2.74 and get the flying 'Q's. No modem communication.
Also, ICET850.AR0 works fine without loading any R: handler. However, if I push the OPTION button, flying 'Q's start, then stop when I let go.
Edit: I just tried to repeat the flying Qs with OPTION using 2.72, no go, it doesn't happen.

Something new. I'm trying 1 meg MIO. It doesn't work even with 2.72. Bobterm 1.20 works, so it isn't the MIO. It is about 2 AM in Israel.





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