That Guy Who Lied About High Scores

[homerwannabee]

Yep, I can personally attest to the no one caring about getting high scores on 30 year old video games. In fact I think when I have put that on my job resume it actually HURTS me from getting a job, and so when applying for a job I usually leave something like that off. Yeah, I do believe his video game scores are mostly real. Remember he was a professional video game player back in the day. He would be paid to exhibit his skills in public. I don't think they would pay someone if all their scores were illegitimate.

 

Breaking his Galaxian record on the Atari 2600 was definitely one of my proudest moments as a gamer. When I first started out I didn't really think I could break his record, but after about 2 months I did it. One thing probably needs to be noted. Atari 2600 games are for the most part easier than their Arcade counterparts. For instance I can't get more than 50k on the MAME version of Galaxian. That game is definitely much, much harder.

 

I one time had a online conversation with him about the Galaxian score. I asked if he died on his last man or if he just quit the game. He told me he just quit the game. I told him, I thought so , and that is why I doubled your score. He never accepted my friend request on Facebook after I told him that. LOL

Edited September 27, 2013 by homerwannabee

[Mxyzptlk]

Yep, I can personally attest to the no one caring about getting high scores on 30 year old video games. In fact I think when I have put that on my job resume it actually HURTS me from getting a job, and so when applying for a job I usually leave something like that off. Yeah, I do believe his video game scores are mostly real. Remember he was a professional video game player back in the day. He would be paid to exhibit his skills in public. I don't think they would pay someone if all their scores were illegitimate.

 

Breaking his Galaxian record on the Atari 2600 was definitely one of my proudest moments as a gamer. When I first started out I didn't really think I could break his record, but after about 2 months I did it. One thing probably needs to be noted. Atari 2600 games are for the most part easier than their Arcade counterparts. For instance I can't get more than 50k on the MAME version of Galaxian. That game is definitely much, much harder.

 

I one time had a online conversation with him about the Galaxian score. I asked if he died on his last man or if he just quit the game. He told me he just quit the game. I told him, I thought so , and that is why I doubled your score. He never accepted my friend request on Facebook after I told him that. LOL

Are you saying that you are the record holder for Atari 2600 Galaxian?

[homerwannabee]

Are you saying that you are the record holder for Atari 2600 Galaxian?

Yes, but only for the 1328th time.

[bennybingo]

Do you have any links to any vids. on him? I have looked around a bit and only found a couple of things on youtube.

He was one of the featured characters in the documentary - Chasing Ghosts: Beyond the Arcade

[Cebus Capucinis]

Yes, but only for the 1328th time.

I think he also has some high score on on Donkey Kong Country Bug Spray Edition or something as well.

[+cvga]

Yeah, I do believe his video game scores are mostly real. Remember he was a professional video game player back in the day. He would be paid to exhibit his skills in public. I don't think they would pay someone if all their scores were illegitimate

He was definitely an elite gamer. However he has shown that his scores aren't believable at face value. I agree that all unverified scores of his should be pulled. It shouldn't be our responsibility to debate which ones seem valid and which ones aren't even possible. Just because a score might be technically possible doesn't mean that he achieved it.

[+batari]

I have no doubts that he's still a world-class gamer. I just find it shocking that he'd lie a few times, which compromises his reputation and casts doubt over what I believe are many legitimate scores.

 

That said, I am missing much of the story, I'm sure - I dug up an old post about Barnstorming and found that the fake score of 32.04 was from way back in 1983, from Activision, and assumed to be a typo - I didn't read anything about a coffee stain in these old posts. A few AA members, including a TG referee, definitively proved that the score was impossible by running emulators a frame at a time and hacking binaries to remove obstacles. But, based on that old thread of which I read every post, I didn't see proof of lying, but more likely an honest mistake.

 

I saw the discussions about other games but I wonder if anyone has definitive proof that a particular score on a 2600 game is impossible, such as by using hacked binaries to remove obstacles, such as they uncovered in that thread above?

[Vaughan]

As soon as someone lies about something like this then all their scores become suspect. As such, I'm not sure any of them should stand.

 

As for Twin Galaxies - what a worthless "organization". They could have done so much, but it was run by idiots with little idea of how to do things right. Personally I consider them entirely irrelevant.

 

Also agree on emulation. I love Mame, but it's not original hardware, so when it comes to "world records" it can't be included. In fact, Mame changes so much, one version of Mame isn't the same as the next.

 

I think the High Score competitions on this site are more interesting than any other. Where can I get a list of VCS high scores - I have a hankering to feel inadequate.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I was in contact with Todd a few years ago, preparing a special, ultra fast Kaboom! training version for him.

[R.Cade]

Isn't that the guy featured in the Time article with the impossibly high DK score? I would assume all the scores are lies...

 

EDIT: My mistake, that was Steve Sanders...

Edited September 27, 2013 by R.Cade

[bennybingo]

Isn't that the guy featured in the Time article with the impossibly high DK score? I would assume all the scores are lies...

 

EDIT: My mistake, that was Steve Sanders...

Mr. Rogers...Colonel Sanders...same difference!

[Mayhem]

This appeared on Todd's Facebook today btw (courtesy of a post on another forum I'm part of):

 

To all my gaming friends and those who are in the gaming industry who would find this topic relevant.

There has been a recent topic posting that has came up on a retro gaming site and it involves an issue of several of my gaming scores records from back in 2000-2003 time frame from the Twin Galaxies site. Some of which these scores were verified before Twin Galaxies inception they were verified by Activision back in 1980 - 1986 time frame.

(Wolff's Accusations)
This person Wolff Morrow who was a former Twin Galaxies ref "the one that is calling me out as a fraud" also had access to many things as well, including seeing who edited columns, seeing who entered scores into the data base and was able to create, make, and edit scores. All of the Twin Galaxies referees at that time were able to add and edit scores from other gamers and well as their own scores. This job title as a ref with their knowledge of gaming was pretty much based on the honor system among referees to do the right thing and not abuse their privileges.

[input My Own Scores]
This brings me to the heated issue of me entering my own gaming scores into the Twin Galaxies data base that Wolff so talks about.
I have admitted in recent times since I no longer am employed by Twin Galaxies on both forums and interviews when it came to the topic of me entering my own scores into the Twin Galaxies data base that I did, but on a small scale and only ONE time. We were not able to discuss such matters while we worked for Twin Galaxies due to the NDA's that we signed and if it were discussed it would have compromised the integrity of Twin Galaxies brand itself.

[The Reason Why]
Here is the reasoning behind that incident Robert Mruczek allowed me to enter a small handful of scores that were performed by myself, these scores were verified by both Ron Corcoran & Robert Mruczek himself. Both referees were rather busy with their personal lives and after waiting week after week for these scores to be updated and input to the data base with no resolve, they then allowed me with their permission to enter ( ONLY ) the scores that they both verified into the data base in their behalf. Everything was approved and agreed by them before I had access to anything. Later that year a collective of senior Twin Galaxies faculty motioned that no referees be allowed to enter their own scores to avoid problems like this had caused so they implemented a program that was able to perform that action.....problem solved.

(Wolff Contacts Programmer about Barnstorming questions)
Wolff then iterates about a score of mine on the Atari 2600 Activision title Barnstorming and how he got a hold of a programmer to disassemble the game code to debunk the score of 32.04.

[barnstorming Live Events]
I had played Barnstorming at the Consumer Electronic Show "CES show" in Chicago in 1982 live at that event. It is perhaps possible that I had played that game on a prototype "unfinished version / early version". Activision was in the habit of recording scores at their live events for the people who played them there and we sometimes played on "unfinished versions / early versions" and that at that time we didn’t know that they were unfinished, because we were hired to just play the games or to try them out for the very first time.

[sOLVING THE PROBLEM]
After the topic of my score was in dispute on a classic retro site came up in 2003 I played Barnstorming LIVE in front of 3 Twin Galaxies referees "Ron Corcoran, Steve Knox, Shane Monroe & Brien King, + 30 people and scored a time of 32:50 which was then input to the data base and then years later removed by Robert Mruczek. Robert was unaware that I had played the game LIVE at the CGE event "Classic Gaming Expo" witnessed by the above referees he was only trying to defuse a fire until more proof was delivered. I then replayed it once again to show that the score of 32.77 was beatable by using the flying in-between bird technique I attained a faster time of 32.67 still better than the other best times that are available on the score board but slower than my previous 32.50. Problem solved or so I thought.

(Conclusion)
So I display here in this screen capture "highlighted with RED arrow" and in my posting to show everyone that if this whole topic was such an issue from back in 2003 and it is now 2013 and that if Wolff Morrow thinks that I am a liar and a fraud then why did he block me on his facebook from making a return contact after I messaged him. These are the actions of a coward or someone who knows that he is wrong and does not want to hear the truth. And why does he not telephone me since I posted my home phone number to him in that previous message so we could discuss this like adults. So the context of this posting was to bring forth a person who is bitter and has their heart set on making their life’s ambition to discredit me and to try and prove things wrong when they are not. I only wish that Wolff could have focus some of his energy and goals toward something positive in life rather than reopening wounds that were closed years ago.

[Atarian7]

If you feel he cheated on games 1 - 3 and 6 or 7, why would you assume he would be honest about other game variations on the cart?

So he made up possible numbers on certain game game variations, and totally blew it on 1 -3 and 6 or 7 is what I would be thinking.

I'll admit I never cared much about high scores but I did know Twin Galaxies was supposedly the site to go to check the archive.

This thread has convinced me not to bother to send people who are interested in that stuff their way.

good question. I don't know if he "cheated" on those. Maybe the times were typos.

[mkiker2089]

Typos, really? One thing to remember about liars is that they stick to the lies even when faced with the truth.

[Atarian7]

This appeared on Todd's Facebook today btw (courtesy of a post on another forum I'm part of):

 

To all my gaming friends and those who are in the gaming industry who would find this topic relevant.

 

There has been a recent topic posting that has came up on a retro gaming site and it involves an issue of several of my gaming scores records from back in 2000-2003 time frame from the Twin Galaxies site. Some of which these scores were verified before Twin Galaxies inception they were verified by Activision back in 1980 - 1986 time frame.

 

(Wolff's Accusations)

This person Wolff Morrow who was a former Twin Galaxies ref "the one that is calling me out as a fraud" also had access to many things as well, including seeing who edited columns, seeing who entered scores into the data base and was able to create, make, and edit scores. All of the Twin Galaxies referees at that time were able to add and edit scores from other gamers and well as their own scores. This job title as a ref with their knowledge of gaming was pretty much based on the honor system among referees to do the right thing and not abuse their privileges.

 

[input My Own Scores]

This brings me to the heated issue of me entering my own gaming scores into the Twin Galaxies data base that Wolff so talks about.

I have admitted in recent times since I no longer am employed by Twin Galaxies on both forums and interviews when it came to the topic of me entering my own scores into the Twin Galaxies data base that I did, but on a small scale and only ONE time. We were not able to discuss such matters while we worked for Twin Galaxies due to the NDA's that we signed and if it were discussed it would have compromised the integrity of Twin Galaxies brand itself.

 

[The Reason Why]

Here is the reasoning behind that incident Robert Mruczek allowed me to enter a small handful of scores that were performed by myself, these scores were verified by both Ron Corcoran & Robert Mruczek himself. Both referees were rather busy with their personal lives and after waiting week after week for these scores to be updated and input to the data base with no resolve, they then allowed me with their permission to enter ( ONLY ) the scores that they both verified into the data base in their behalf. Everything was approved and agreed by them before I had access to anything. Later that year a collective of senior Twin Galaxies faculty motioned that no referees be allowed to enter their own scores to avoid problems like this had caused so they implemented a program that was able to perform that action.....problem solved.

 

(Wolff Contacts Programmer about Barnstorming questions)

Wolff then iterates about a score of mine on the Atari 2600 Activision title Barnstorming and how he got a hold of a programmer to disassemble the game code to debunk the score of 32.04.

 

[barnstorming Live Events]

I had played Barnstorming at the Consumer Electronic Show "CES show" in Chicago in 1982 live at that event. It is perhaps possible that I had played that game on a prototype "unfinished version / early version". Activision was in the habit of recording scores at their live events for the people who played them there and we sometimes played on "unfinished versions / early versions" and that at that time we didn’t know that they were unfinished, because we were hired to just play the games or to try them out for the very first time.

 

[sOLVING THE PROBLEM]

After the topic of my score was in dispute on a classic retro site came up in 2003 I played Barnstorming LIVE in front of 3 Twin Galaxies referees "Ron Corcoran, Steve Knox, Shane Monroe & Brien King, + 30 people and scored a time of 32:50 which was then input to the data base and then years later removed by Robert Mruczek. Robert was unaware that I had played the game LIVE at the CGE event "Classic Gaming Expo" witnessed by the above referees he was only trying to defuse a fire until more proof was delivered. I then replayed it once again to show that the score of 32.77 was beatable by using the flying in-between bird technique I attained a faster time of 32.67 still better than the other best times that are available on the score board but slower than my previous 32.50. Problem solved or so I thought.

 

(Conclusion)

So I display here in this screen capture "highlighted with RED arrow" and in my posting to show everyone that if this whole topic was such an issue from back in 2003 and it is now 2013 and that if Wolff Morrow thinks that I am a liar and a fraud then why did he block me on his facebook from making a return contact after I messaged him. These are the actions of a coward or someone who knows that he is wrong and does not want to hear the truth. And why does he not telephone me since I posted my home phone number to him in that previous message so we could discuss this like adults. So the context of this posting was to bring forth a person who is bitter and has their heart set on making their life’s ambition to discredit me and to try and prove things wrong when they are not. I only wish that Wolff could have focus some of his energy and goals toward something positive in life rather than reopening wounds that were closed years ago.

 

Todd Rogers never scored a 32.50 on barnstorming. It's impossible. 32.67 is no where close to it. .17 in a game like barnstorming is an eternity. If it were possible why hasn't he gotten closer to it in subsequent attempts?

 

Maybe he scored a 32.80 and then later perfected his game and got to 32.67.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Atarian7

[+batari]

 

Todd Rogers never scored a 32.50 on barnstorming. It's impossible. 32.67 is no where close to it. .17 in a game like barnstorming is an eternity. If it were possible why hasn't he gotten closer to it in subsequent attempts?

 

Maybe he scored a 32.80 and then later perfected his game and got to 32.67.

To be fair, that old thread I linked above involved someone who showed that 32.50 possible, and is actually the best possible score you can achieve on the game. It requires a pixel-perfect run.

[Stan]

I love the fire. Flame on. Come on, Todd, though I don't doubt some of his scores were legit, I think we've sufficiently found some of them to be a joke, and sorry, that puts others into suspicion. Doesn't mean you're not a "good" player, it just means you're a lying player who's good.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

To me this looks like people are attacking Todd with no real proven evidence that he really and intentionally lied about his scores.

At least those who attacked him for "impossible" results which were proven to be possible should apologize and rethink their posting habits. IMHO.

[Goochman]

Ive seen Todd play some of the Activision titles and he got scores better than anyone else I know. He showed me some of the techniques he uses that seem obvious once you know them but were things I didnt think of to do.

[Vaughan]

Todd makes some excellent points in that post. Earlier I said Twin Galaxies is/was a joke - and his comments support this. How half-assed to have allowed an "honor system" to stand. Lazy, worthless. If they wanted to be taken seriously, they should have known much much better. I have no idea if this guy cheated or not - it seems to me that once suspicion is cast it needs to be addressed. But that'll never happen at Twin Galaxies. Transparency is the answer - but it appears they have NDA's. Pathetic.

[Miss 2600]

 

[barnstorming Live Events]

I had played Barnstorming at the Consumer Electronic Show "CES show" in Chicago in 1982 live at that event. It is perhaps possible that I had played that game on a prototype "unfinished version / early version". Activision was in the habit of recording scores at their live events for the people who played them there and we sometimes played on "unfinished versions / early versions" and that at that time we didn’t know that they were unfinished, because we were hired to just play the games or to try them out for the very first time.

 

No one here is buying that it was an unfinished game where he achieved 32.5?

[Vaughan]

If it was an unfinished game - how can the score stand? Surely the least to be expected is the score was achieved on the same version that was released and everyone else played....

[LidLikesIntellivision]

To me this looks like people are attacking Todd with no real proven evidence that he really and intentionally lied about his scores.

At least those who attacked him for "impossible" results which were proven to be possible should apologize and rethink their posting habits. IMHO.

I totally agree with this.

 

Typos, prototype and other errors take away the credibility of TG or any serious company, site, group that wants to keep truly world record scores.

But it's a different thing when you're talking about a person's honour. You need to prove that person lied intentionally, he really can make mistakes.

 

I would hate if I had posted a score with the wrong game mode, difficulty settings, score, or version and had to hear accusations through years.

If a simple player is important enough to be remembered for so many years, direct evidences should be shown.

 

 

BTW, here I got 32.07 by switching on and off detection collision .

 

P.S.: not to accuse anyone, but I can't believe some of his scores...

I mean, they're so awesome it's a natural psycological effect.

 

Todd's Sub-scan score of 1,012,000 must be another typo, prototype version, even a prototypo...

Who can deal with the level 9 of sub-scan for such long time?

This is another very interesting score because it gives Todd the chance to prove he is a genius.

[Keatah]

While it is certainly nice to see the hi-scores, the only score that truly matters is your personal best.

 

According to my logbook (remember those?) I had 33.04 in Barnstorming.

 

ADDED: by doing the collision detect "Cheat" the fastest does seem to be 32.07

Edited September 28, 2013 by Keatah

[LidLikesIntellivision]

ADDED: by doing the collision detect "Cheat" the fastest does seem to be 32.07

Yes, but I suspect my keyboard can't handle all 4 keys simultaneous so every time I had to switch collision detection I may had lost some time with accelaration...