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Geneve Mess ABasic MDos

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#26 mizapf OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:53 AM

One thing to keep in mind - if you change settings in MESS you may have to reset the emulation (F3 in partial mode) to make them effective. Only a few settings have immediate effect.

 

In spite of all these troubles, I can see why someone would abandon the TI for the Geneve - it's much more versatile :).

 

Back in 1990 there were certainly some people who asked me whether it made sense to spend a lot of money on an abandoned platform.

 

It did, in any respect.

 

Now that I know the TI-99/8 I must say that actually a lot of things were done in the Geneve in the right way. There's still potential for more, but what we had and have is a really well done machine. And it turned out that most of that Myarc bashing all over the time was not only inappropriate but utter nonsense.

 

What I'm sometimes missing in my Geneve is a EEPROM where you could store things like boot device, just like in a PC. Of course, there are always some more ideas for the Geneve OS (MDOS), but this does not depend on the hardware.

 

For MESS users: Remember to use the command line switch "-mouse" to get mouse support in the Geneve emulation.



#27 RobertLM78 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:36 PM

Heya Gazoo

 

Looks like you've got everything set up correctly, answer y, n, n to the Form3meg queries.

 

And no reason to abandon the TI for a Geneve, they're both just as much fun. Expand the TI with a 9938 device, a Ramdisk, and a hard drive and you've got something very special. :)

 

Gazoo

You're right the TI is still a great machine - I suppose I worded that badly - but I do know that if I had a HDFC and a Geneve card, I would probably be running it in my PEB :).

 

About the Ramdisk format, anything to which I answer 'N' kicks me back to the FORM3MEG menu - so saying no to setting the disk to boot MDOS at >1400 sends me back to the menu.  If I say yes to that and no to load SYSTEM/SYS, same thing, back to the menu without anything being done... very odd.  This is why I thought earlier that I needed to answer 'Y' to everything - should have mentioned the behaviour.



#28 RobertLM78 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:45 PM

One thing to keep in mind - if you change settings in MESS you may have to reset the emulation (F3 in partial mode) to make them effective. Only a few settings have immediate effect.

I realized that was the problem when it wasn't recognizing the ramdisk - I had been warm-booting, and thus the changes weren't taking hold. Thanks for the tip though, now I know how to cold reset the machine from MESS without having to shut down the emulation.

Back in 1990 there were certainly some people who asked me whether it made sense to spend a lot of money on an abandoned platform.
 
It did, in any respect.
 
Now that I know the TI-99/8 I must say that actually a lot of things were done in the Geneve in the right way. There's still potential for more, but what we had and have is a really well done machine. And it turned out that most of that Myarc bashing all over the time was not only inappropriate but utter nonsense.
 
What I'm sometimes missing in my Geneve is a EEPROM where you could store things like boot device, just like in a PC. Of course, there are always some more ideas for the Geneve OS (MDOS), but this does not depend on the hardware.

I sure seems like it was a good investment. Sounds like everyone that has a Geneve is pleased with it. As I understand it, I think a lot of the Myarc bashing over the years was probably from not delivering the machine when they said they would.
 

For MESS users: Remember to use the command line switch "-mouse" to get mouse support in the Geneve emulation.

Where should that go, at the end? Something like:
~/mess/mess64 geneve -peb:slot3 myarcmem -peb:slot4 horizon -peb:slot8 hfdc -hard1 ~/mess/GeneveHD.hd -mouse
?

#29 mizapf OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:38 PM

Use the "-mouse" switch at any location in your command line. This will make the emulation capture the mouse (some of the menus release it temporarily, but I'm also waiting for a better solution, like a capture/release key), but it will not have a visible effect beyond that unless you start a program that uses the mouse (like my Fractals program).



#30 InsaneMultitasker OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:42 PM

One thing to keep in mind - if you change settings in MESS you may have to reset the emulation (F3 in partial mode) to make them effective. Only a few settings have immediate effect.

 

 

 

What I'm sometimes missing in my Geneve is a EEPROM where you could store things like boot device, just like in a PC. Of course, there are always some more ideas for the Geneve OS (MDOS), but this does not depend on the hardware.

 

 

The PFM device comes close -- it is a 512K  29c040 flash chip installed in place of the boot EPROM.  The Geneve OS is stored in flash and boots quickly.    360K of the remaining space is used as a read-only flash drive; I have not repurposed the remaining 16K for anything.  In my system, all of my programing and util programs are stored on this flash disk where it is accessed just like a standard floppy disk via the REMAP command.

 

There are two challenges with the PFM:  the chips are hard to come by and there aren't many chip programmers that will properly read and write them.



#31 Mad Hatter OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:16 PM

Second the notion of the PFM being a nice Geneve mod.  I have the SYSTEM/SYS (I almost typed SYSTEM"/"SYS) on the PFM, and the AUTOEXEC as well.  Most of the utilities I use regularly (GPL, CYA, XB, EDIT, DM, MYS, DSKUG, etc) are stored on the disk portion.  It makes for convenient fast-loading access.

 

 

The PFM device comes close -- it is a 512K  29c040 flash chip installed in place of the boot EPROM.  The Geneve OS is stored in flash and boots quickly.    360K of the remaining space is used as a read-only flash drive; I have not repurposed the remaining 16K for anything.  In my system, all of my programing and util programs are stored on this flash disk where it is accessed just like a standard floppy disk via the REMAP command.



#32 mizapf OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:01 AM

Second the notion of the PFM being a nice Geneve mod. 

 

Makes sense to add PFM to MESS, I guess?

(oops, a rhyme)



#33 Mad Hatter OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:16 PM

Like the insane one said, it sounds like the PFM is the closest thing to what you are looking for, available on the Geneve.  Only caveat is what was previously mentioned about the 360k flash drive being read-only.  In order to change the contents of the disk portion, you load whatever you want on to a single 360k floppy, then run a small utility which copies the contents of the floppy on to the flash drive. Only takes about a minute to complete the process.  All of the other things related to the PFM can be easily controlled with CYA.

 

 

Makes sense to add PFM to MESS, I guess?



#34 InsaneMultitasker OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:40 PM

 

Makes sense to add PFM to MESS, I guess?

(oops, a rhyme)

If you did, it would certainly make fixing some of its problems a heck of a lot simpler, given how difficult it is to program these chips lately. It might also make it possible to use the 29c040A device (different sector size than the 29c040).

 

The 512K EEPROM is mapped into pages F0-FF (128K).  Four banks are controlled using two spare 9901 CRU bits.  It is installed in a 32-pin socket, modified to pick up CRU and address lines beyond what is offered in the 28-pin EPROM socket.  The device should be mapped in as read-only.  There was some simple "protection" added, for example, the 128K boot page is only active at bootup and hard-reset.  If you inspect the L6\KEY* code, there is a segment of code masquerading as a keyboard table that turns the proper CRU bits on/off before a reset. 



#35 RobertLM78 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:26 PM

If you did, it would certainly make fixing some of its problems a heck of a lot simpler, given how difficult it is to program these chips lately. It might also make it possible to use the 29c040A device (different sector size than the 29c040).

Perhaps it might help me resolve my issue?  I unfortunately haven't been able to make sense of it ....  :dunce:



#36 Gazoo OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:59 AM

Heya Gazoo

 

You're right the TI is still a great machine - I suppose I worded that badly - but I do know that if I had a HDFC and a Geneve card, I would probably be running it in my PEB :).

 

About the Ramdisk format, anything to which I answer 'N' kicks me back to the FORM3MEG menu - so saying no to setting the disk to boot MDOS at >1400 sends me back to the menu.  If I say yes to that and no to load SYSTEM/SYS, same thing, back to the menu without anything being done... very odd.  This is why I thought earlier that I needed to answer 'Y' to everything - should have mentioned the behaviour.

 

That's the normal behavior of FORM3MEG. It returns to the menu after the operation. Apparently you were successful.

 

To make things simpler, I've uploaded new hard drive image files to the Geneve Yahoo group's file section. It does not require an emulated Ramdisk and should run 'right out of the box' for you now.

 

Gazoo



#37 RobertLM78 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:20 PM

That's the normal behavior of FORM3MEG. It returns to the menu after the operation. Apparently you were successful.

Hi Gazoo - I really want to thank you for all of your help trying to get this to work- your patience with this noob is outstanding :).

 

I'll be.... I thought that might be the case, but I was still not sure about the drive letter since we set the CRU to >1400.  At any rate, N:\ doesn't seem to be an option (which is the letter that corresponds to 16 bit at >1401) and G:\ never worked when I tried to copy the DSK6 directory.

 

To make things simpler, I've uploaded new hard drive image files to the Geneve Yahoo group's file section. It does not require an emulated Ramdisk and should run 'right out of the box' for you now.

 

Gazoo

 

Trying out the new disk, is there anything I need to do prior to running something like say, Extended Basic?  It seems to be getting stuck loading the last file of any program.  For example, loading Extended Basic (TI, option 'D' in the menu), it gets stuck loading HDS1.GRAM.T1.TI-EXB1105, and the system hangs.  Sometimes the screen color changes after the last file, but the system still hangs :(.   (BTW, I do have this new disk mounted as the primary drive, unlike what I had been doing before having MdosGpl.hd as the second drive.)

 

Edit:  As an update, I am able to get some things to start without a problem: Disk Manager 1000 and My Word start without a hitch.


Edited by RobertLM78, Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:14 PM.


#38 Gazoo OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:34 PM

Hi Gazoo - I really want to thank you for all of your help trying to get this to work- your patience with this noob is outstanding :).

 

I'll be.... I thought that might be the case, but I was still not sure about the drive letter since we set the CRU to >1400.  At any rate, N:\ doesn't seem to be an option (which is the letter that corresponds to 16 bit at >1401) and G:\ never worked when I tried to copy the DSK6 directory.

 

 

Trying out the new disk, is there anything I need to do prior to running something like say, Extended Basic?  It seems to be getting stuck loading the last file of any program.  For example, loading Extended Basic (TI, option 'D' in the menu), it gets stuck loading HDS1.GRAM.T1.TI-EXB1105, and the system hangs.  Sometimes the screen color changes after the last file, but the system still hangs :(.   (BTW, I do have this new disk mounted as the primary drive, unlike what I had been doing before having MdosGpl.hd as the second drive.)

 

Edit:  As an update, I am able to get some things to start without a problem: Disk Manager 1000 and My Word start without a hitch.

 

The particular version of Mdos on the disk is set for the Ramdisk to respond as G: or DSK6.

 

Everything on the menu should load without incident. I fixed the paths that didn't load when I eliminated the Ramdisk, and then double checked all menu items. Everything loads fine for me, even sub-menus like in Boot, Educational Cartridges, and Games.

 

I also downloaded the image files, rejoined them, and tested that image file with no trouble.

 

The only thing I can imagine that may be causing you trouble is that you don't have Mess configured for expanded memory. You should at least have the additional 384k turned on.

 

Gazoo



#39 RobertLM78 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:13 PM

 

The particular version of Mdos on the disk is set for the Ramdisk to respond as G: or DSK6.

 

Everything on the menu should load without incident. I fixed the paths that didn't load when I eliminated the Ramdisk, and then double checked all menu items. Everything loads fine for me, even sub-menus like in Boot, Educational Cartridges, and Games.

 

I also downloaded the image files, rejoined them, and tested that image file with no trouble.

 

The only thing I can imagine that may be causing you trouble is that you don't have Mess configured for expanded memory. You should at least have the additional 384k turned on.

 

Gazoo

Hi Gazoo -

 

Do you mean the SRAM?  I have that (now) set to 384k, but I'm still having troubles :(.  Interestingly, some things load while others do not:

Screenshot-4.png

 

This is what I've been calling the "red screen of death".  This particular time I was trying to load Multiplan.

 

I can get to the submenus Games and Education, but nothing in the menus load - they all get stuck on the last file, or the system goes to the red screen.  Here's a shot of Boot hanging - the system just sticks here:

Screenshot-5.png

 

Edit: BTW- should I be using v0.98 or v1.00 of the BIOS?  I've been having it set to v0.98, but changed it to 1.0 today - not sure if it has had any affect however. 


Edited by RobertLM78, Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:35 PM.


#40 RobertLM78 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:44 PM

I ran memtest (Opt #2 in the main menu). I thought the results might be useful:

 

Screenshot-6.png

 

I honestly don't know how many bytes a page is, but it does look there is some SRAM there.



#41 Gazoo OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:39 PM

I ran memtest (Opt #2 in the main menu). I thought the results might be useful:

 

Screenshot-6.png

 

I honestly don't know how many bytes a page is, but it does look there is some SRAM there.

 

Something's wrong in the dark blue boxes area. Do you have a Memex or 512k card in the config? If so, take it out.

Turn off the Ramdisk, too. Might be a 32k on the Ramdisk problem.

 

Gazoo


Edited by Gazoo, Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:40 PM.


#42 RobertLM78 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:06 PM

 

Something's wrong in the dark blue boxes area. Do you have a Memex or 512k card in the config? If so, take it out.

Turn off the Ramdisk, too. Might be a 32k on the Ramdisk problem.

 

Gazoo

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Taking out the Myarc 512k card did the trick!!!  :D  - as far as I can tell, the Ramdisk isn't disturbing anything, but I can take it out too since it's unnecessary at this point.  Thank you much buddy!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:



#43 jedimatt42 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:16 AM

So, I've now got a Geneve, that I've been able to boot off my gotek drive on my TIFDC w/80 track mod.  The OS boots off of my DSSD80 HFE, created by converting a sector image created from TiImageTool with the 'install geneve os' utility menu item. 

 

1st strange thing:

  The AUTOEXEC created by TiImageTool fails with an error about 'line too long'  I hadn't been able to import any sort of text -> D/V80 through TiImageTool that did anything different. But, over on the real box, I can write a new AUTOEXEC with COPY CON AUTOEXEC and that saves properly. So, odd, but not a blocker, unless it is symptomatic of a greater issue.

 

2nd real issue:

  I'm a Geneve Newb.  MDOS is now Geneve OS.  v6.50 distribute disk comes with a GPL that is only one file, there are things on the whtech sight in the mdos_gpl_util.hd that I've been trying to look at and figure out, but I'm not sure what all these parts are.

 

  EXEC ?    Looking at how it is used in the AUTOEXEC, I'm guessing it loads a EA5 program in GPL mode directly.

  INITGPL ?  I found something saying it makes GPL resident, and makes GPL a built in command?  Does this require a modified SYSTEM/SYS?

  CYA ?   Modifies SYSTEM/SYS???  but to what end?

 

3rd real issue:

  I can't get anything to load after the OS.  Looking at the hd image, I grabbed the MEMTEST, MEMTESU, MEMTESV files, dropped them on the boot disk using TiImageTool, recreated the HFE, and when I run A:\MEMTEST or MEMTEST I just get back "Bad command or filename."   I get the same thing with GPL, and CRACK128.

 

This is a genmod geneve with a memex card.   When I flip the TIMODE off switch, the Geneve just complains about bad cpu ram found. So I'm guessing the memex isn't working correctly. There does not appear to be any other memory mod made to the 9640. The memex is fully populated. But I haven't found any documentation for the memex board itself to know if the dipswitch bank is set correctly.  

 

Anyone have any docs on the memex board? 

 

Is the failure to load files a problem with Geneve OS and my 80 track TIFDC? 

 

Is there any kind of SystemInfo tool?

 

The change logs for MDOS/Geneve OS indicate the requirement for more memory than the stock 512k on the board... I saw no piggybacked sram. How does the OS fail when there is not the requisite memory addendum? 

 

Any help would be awesome :) 

 

-M@



#44 mizapf OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:58 AM

I think InsaneMultitasker will be able to give precise answers to these issues, but my first guess is that you must upgrade the SRAM to use any MDOS or GeneveOS after version 2.5. If this memory is missing I would expect that the operating system will run out of memory, which could be indicated by this error message "line too long".

 

You may have a look at Ninerpedia (http://www.ninerpedi...php/Geneve_9640 ), but unfortunately, the instructions are not yet filled in.



#45 mizapf OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:59 AM

Here are detailed instructions: http://www.mainbyte..../geneve32k.html

 

Also, I just added Tim's original article to the blank spot in Ninerpedia.


Edited by mizapf, Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:16 AM.


#46 jedimatt42 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:50 AM

Cool, great to see more detail showing up there. 

 

The line too long issue was resolved by using a 40track image in the gotek drive instead of an 80 track image.  It seems as though the Geneve OS doesn't use the DSR, but the boot rom does.  :) 

 

who would have guessed that chkdsk shows memory :)  

 

My chkdsk output is 

...

1777664 bytes of total memory

1581056 bytes of free

 

If I have TIMODE in the AUTOEXEC, then the free memory is lower as expected: 1376256

 

I didn't expect running INITGPL to free TIMODE... after running it the free memory goes back up to the 1.5 meg value. 

 

Are there any resources on the PFM mod?  Since I don't expect to see a hard drive controller any time soon, it might be the best usability option for booting. 

 

Anyway, I'm still looking for info on how INITGPL and EXEC are supposed to be used. Or even a normal GPL file set. I think all the files anyone needs are in that harddrive image mdos_gpl_util.hd... I'll go back to starting with a normal GPL file set, now that I think I've got the 40 track drive issue resolved understood.

 

-M@



#47 Ksarul OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:58 AM

GPL is a set of files starting with GPL. You need the full set of them to run in TI MODE. If you've loaded TI MODE and type GPL from the command line (assuming you are in the directory with the GPL files), it should execute and bring you to a GPL Menu screen (there are several possibilities here, dependent on the set of files you have).



#48 jedimatt42 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:30 PM

This link belongs in this thread:

 

  http://www.ti99.com/geneve/

 

384k upgrade details

turbo VDP upgrade details

192k VDP ram upgrade details

Mouse replacement details

 

-M@



#49 jedimatt42 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:41 PM

GPL is a set of files starting with GPL. You need the full set of them to run in TI MODE. If you've loaded TI MODE and type GPL from the command line (assuming you are in the directory with the GPL files), it should execute and bring you to a GPL Menu screen (there are several possibilities here, dependent on the set of files you have).

 

So, the MDOS/Geneve OS 6.50 redistribution disk only comes with a single file: GPL. 

 

 

There are multiple copies of the complete set on that mdos_gpl_util.hd image on whtech, I assume that was so there was less typing.  I'll go try one of those now.



#50 Ksarul OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:39 PM

It probably only came with GPL as that was the only file that was updated for this version of MDOS. Take it and add the other files to the directory and then you should have a functional set.







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