High scores @ twingalaxies

[ravenxau]

does anyone know if the twingalaxies website is still the accepted 'official' list of high scores - considering all the rubbish that went on with billy mitchell's donkey kong score and todd rogers 'fake' atari scores - if so, what is the status of the website. I did find this site

 

http://www.highscore.com

 

which lists game scores - is theis the best alternative if TG is corrupted and dead???

Edited January 5, 2014 by ravenxau

[Zoyx]

There is some in-fighting going on at Twin Galaxies. Twin Galaxies is expected to come back up... no ETA, though.

[Gorfy]

Highscore.com is run by AA member Serious. It looks to be an excellent site, but it's still very new and needs more participants. I say forget Twin Galaxies

[Botbird208]

Todd Rogers scores were fake?

[Gorfy]

Todd Rogers scores were fake?

I think it's controversial. Here's a recent thread on the topic........

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/217092-that-guy-who-lied-about-high-scores/

[Atarian7]

I don't think most of his scores were fake. There were a lot of the timed games that were wrong.

 

Twin Galaxies sucks now that they charge to submit scores. I would join one of the High Score Clubs here instead.

[Botbird208]

Atariage should make section of twin galaxies that rips it off. It should be run by smart people, not idiots! It should also be free.

 

Highscore.com is the closest anyone will get. It's good enough.

[Atarian7]

Highscore looks promising but they have level A and level B for some games that only have one level.

 

Also the scores are kind of low on some games because there isn't enough participation yet.

[Serious]

Highscore looks promising but they have level A and level B for some games that only have one level.

I'm working with some fellow AtariAge members to fix that.

 

Also the scores are kind of low on some games because there isn't enough participation yet.

 

Yep, High Score is still very new (5 months since I started the Beta, I believe), but it will be around for a long time. The database will grow.

[S.BAZ]

I don't think Rogers' scores are fake either. Every time I really dig into it, it appears perfectly likely to be a legit score. For example the dragster score he said himself he was exploiting a glitch in the game for that score. Scott from the 2600 connection had a good batch of helpful info for me about it. Todd was accused of cheating in the old 2600 HSC as well, for his Taz score, which seemed to have an impossible point increment. But as he explained, he was using an alternative release, with the only difference being that the code results in some variances in point increments at the end of stages. He was not the only player in that round whose score reflected this variant release. Strangely that fact got ignored and his score disappeared from the standings. And the other guy's score remained, even though it had the same seemingly "impossible" last couple digits! TR doesn't appear to have played in another HSC round since.

 

I think it's just that he had such astronomical scores in most of the games he played that a few people didn't feel like it was fair & wanted to push him out of the competition. If so, that's really too bad because for every one of those folks there are probably 10 or 20 (or 50) of us who would just find it inspiring, showing what can be done.

 

I agree TG is useless now since they started charging the players. I heard Guiness dropped them as a resource as soon as they did that. It seems baffling that they would think that could seriously fly. Perhaps after those lawsuits, TG may have come under the control of non-gamers?? That's the only explanation I could think of.

 

I also agree that HighScore.com is excellent, and could eventually become a quality replacement, I really can't think of a more likely candidate.

[Gorfy]

Yeah, I'm still on the fence about whether or not TR cheated. It reminds me of a more recent incident involving a current AA member who also achieves some monster scores. The problem, of course, is that it's very difficult to prove one way or the other. Very ambiguous!! In the case of the current AA member, he has subsequently been able to prove many scores with the use of video. In TR's case, I think the most damning evidence relates to the Barnstorming time -- did he ever respond to that??

Edited January 14, 2014 by Gorfy

[NIKON]

I don't think Rogers' scores are fake either. Every time I really dig into it, it appears perfectly likely to be a legit score. For example the dragster score he said himself he was exploiting a glitch in the game for that score. Scott from the 2600 connection had a good batch of helpful info for me about it. Todd was accused of cheating in the old 2600 HSC as well, for his Taz score, which seemed to have an impossible point increment. But as he explained, he was using an alternative release, with the only difference being that the code results in some variances in point increments at the end of stages. He was not the only player in that round whose score reflected this variant release. Strangely that fact got ignored and his score disappeared from the standings. And the other guy's score remained, even though it had the same seemingly "impossible" last couple digits! TR doesn't appear to have played in another HSC round since.

 

I think it's just that he had such astronomical scores in most of the games he played that a few people didn't feel like it was fair & wanted to push him out of the competition. If so, that's really too bad because for every one of those folks there are probably 10 or 20 (or 50) of us who would just find it inspiring, showing what can be done.

 

I agree TG is useless now since they started charging the players. I heard Guiness dropped them as a resource as soon as they did that. It seems baffling that they would think that could seriously fly. Perhaps after those lawsuits, TG may have come under the control of non-gamers?? That's the only explanation I could think of.

 

I also agree that HighScore.com is excellent, and could eventually become a quality replacement, I really can't think of a more likely candidate.

Well let's say for debates sake that if there is more than one version of a title... than that would bring into question the validity of any score for that particular title...and for competitions sake then everyone participating needs to have the same version of the title. Not splitting hairs here but of we are talking about Todd Rogers scores and he only defense is a different version of a title then we need to look at that as a possible flaw in the system. Furthermore if there is a difference found in the versions of titles.. what is to happen to the scores that were submitted to a competition venue such as AA and highscore.com?

 

And how is cheating to be handled..shoot even discovered..Twin Galaxies REQUIRED a video of high scores to have indisputable evidence of a high score...but that was different time VHS tape was way harder to manipulate that a digital video workstation is but seems like an awful lot of work just for a high score where no cash prizes are a reward.

 

@Gorfy That certain AA member may have proven some of his score through video which some of them were not up to that score he previously submitted and the one game that he was caught cheating at was way below the scores that he submitted...double rollage of scores...even then all that happened was he was required to submit videos of all his scores. Result..less participation in a certain HSC and all his score wiped out and records retracted...and the whole season 5 was tainted...we are completely through season 6 already and the moderator still has not been able to get through all of it and post the correct leaderboards and the like. If you remember there were many of us that wanted him suspended from season 6 but the powers that be did not see it that way.

Edited January 14, 2014 by NIKON

[S.BAZ]

Well let's say for debates sake that if there is more than one version of a title... than that would bring into question the validity of any score for that particular title...and for competitions sake then everyone participating needs to have the same version of the title. Not splitting hairs here but of we are talking about Todd Rogers scores and he only defense is a different version of a title then we need to look at that as a possible flaw in the system. Furthermore if there is a difference found in the versions of titles.. what is to happen to the scores that were submitted to a competition venue such as AA and HighScore.com?

 

 

[ edit - I reviewed the thread from week 16 of 2004 and I see that I had remembered that incorrectly. Chris++ had the same cart as the other players, it becomes an issue at higher scores. Rogers' score was removed for being a variant cart. However, what I had noticed before that did not seem right is the fact that Todd Rogers was then removed from the overall leaderboard for the season, when he had been playing earlier in the season. also, the guy that accused him actually apologized which makes it more confusing. by the end of the week no one seems to think he had cheated, just had a different game. ]

Edited February 7, 2014 by S.BAZ

[S.BAZ]

Yeah, I'm still on the fence about whether or not TR cheated. It reminds me of a more recent incident involving a current AA member who also achieves some monster scores. The problem, of course, is that it's very difficult to prove one way or the other. Very ambiguous!! In the case of the current AA member, he has subsequently been able to prove many scores with the use of video. In TR's case, I think the most damning evidence relates to the Barnstorming time -- did he ever respond to that??

I asked that same question myself, to someone who knew him at the time, and he said that Todd didn't want to be in the controversy and didn't respond to it. The guy I spoke with also directed me to the thread you cited above & he said this was typical of the stuff coming at TR in those days. He pointed out that all of those arguments by those guys that "built a case" never talked about the video recordings of his games-- they instead focused on persuasive arguments like the hacked version of barnstorming, where the obstacles were stripped to see how fast the computer could do it without them. (which was the same argument used against his dragster score)

 

What they didn't mention, he said, was that there had been a video recording of every one of Todd's submissions to twin galaxies. In fact, TG never accepted scores for their records unless there was a video tape. So the obvious response to all those arguments would be "well, let's just watch the video & then we'll all know how his game went and there will be no need for all this convincing.". And he said their response to that was the same every time: "well, we lost the tape.".

 

Now to me that doesn't look like a very strong argument. Also considering that these were other members of twin galaxies who also had record scores, often second to Todd's. At least this is what I have heard. It's kind of hard for me to find much info about it, but this is how it's looking so far...

 

Another supporter of TR is David Yancey, a contemporary of Todd's who had lots of equally rocking scores on activision games and what-not. He says TR's scores were legit and tries to help improve his reputation. Yancey made a youtube video of himself playing donkey kong for a prolonged period to show it is more than possible. You may remember, the argument against TR's DK score was that it was way too much higher than the other scores submitted, and therefor too high of a score to be believed. "believe," however, shouldn't really have anything to do with it-- these guys were the official record-keepers, there should be record, or else what is it doing on the scoreboard? Again, "we lost the video."

[Zoyx]

You don't necessarily need a tape. You can have a TR judge witness your game instead. That's how Billy Mitchell's record was made official the last time he held the Donkey Kong (arcade) record. No tape, just a judge. That judge by the way... Todd Rogers.

[S.BAZ]

You don't necessarily need a tape. You can have a TR judge witness your game instead. That's how Billy Mitchell's record was made official the last time he held the Donkey Kong (arcade) record. No tape, just a judge. That judge by the way... Todd Rogers.

 

I see. thanx Zoyx. Maybe I heard this bit about "we lost the tapes" from someone who just has an opinion and is taking sides, not caring for accuracy of information.

 

I should also apologize for saying TG is "uselss." Obviously they recorded many legitimate accomplishments, whether they charged the players for recording them or not. TG just seems to have become a mess is all.

 

so I wonder, are those controversial Rogers scores where he said he used a glitch, actually ones that were recorded by a judge? The guy I spoke with said Todd always videotaped his games and that there were tapes which were claimed to be lost. maybe that's not true??

 

it sure is a rough road sorting this one out! it takes some real curiousity. the guy obviously had some skills and dedication, else he wouldn't have been hired by Activision to show off their games. of course that doesn't mean one couldn't have been doing some cheating as well. the main problem, I think, is that people are taking sides and having opinions, rather than looking for accurate information. so I'm seeing a lot of opinionated arguments which don't explain things very well...

 

the stuff about his Donkey Kong score in that thread from Retrocade stands out especially. I can understand with a score that big, you need some good evidence. Otherwise it can't really be counted. But that is of course no reason to say someone lied about it. It is certainly possible, I know because I have been all the way through that game and back to the easy part several times in one game, it wraps around. all it would take is to get really good at it and then just keep focused while playing. you can even take breaks in that game because it waits for you to press the button at the beginning of each stage.

 

That report is very biased but I'm also not discarding the stuff it brings up.

 

 

so far here's what I got:

 

-- a couple of hardcore, top-notch gamers who say they know TR say "no way, that guy was not a cheater, he was (or is) an honest dude. folks is jealous and wanted him out of competition."

 

-- a BUNCH of gamers & onlookers say TR is disqualified, he entered fake scores and cheated to get huge scores.

 

-- other folks associated with TG have also been accused of dishonest behaviour.

 

-- none of what I've been able to gather so far convinces me that TR cheated or didn't cheat. But I can say that his scores don't SEEM fake to me so far.

 

 

...were they fake? or just scores obtained in a way which was afterwards disallowed? Can anyone help with some more input on that? I'd really like to hear anything people might have to offer – I'm new to this scene (2nd year) and open to looking at it without bias. I would like to see less controversy and more open discussion.

 

This may not be the best thread for it, but I would imagine that more unbiased discussion would be beneficial to the gaming community. There are probably a good number of us who are curious about this as well.

 

Maybe Todd or someone who has been involved with Twin Galaxies would be willing to comment at some point, maybe answer some questions?

 

maybe it is better to leave the past in the dust and just carry on in the present. It sure does seem interesting though! knowing seems better!

[NIKON]

IMHO.

 

What happened back then was in a different time...there are arguments for both sides of the fence and they both have merit. did he cheat? possibly...did he not cheat? again possibly. Is the explanation TR offered a valid one.. certainly.. is the experiment where some hacked Barnstorming and ran straight through with no obstacles and was not able to reproduce the time that TR claims valid? again..YES.

 

Does it matter in this day and age of the internet? To that I would have to answer no.

 

I could go into the details of what was the series run of the console he used? What was the ambient temperature at the time..what was the series of the cartridge run he used...if you really want to know if TR's score is legit you have to factor in all of these components because electronics is not impervious to outside influences. RF fields...heat, magnetic fields, what are the parameters of the transistors use in the console and cartridge?

 

All of these will have an impact on the final result.

 

Splitting hairs you say...well seems to me that hacking a cart to prove a point is form of splitting hairs.

 

Now if you are talking about did TR break the rules? That I cannot answer... when rules are set down then everyone participating should follow those same rules...there should not be any mis-understanding about the rules. And if a participant breaks one of those rules then that person should be disqualified from competition. No questions.

 

Now if a person is found out to have broken the rules after the fact then anything from that point on should not even be considered as valid because there will always be a question attached to whatever is presented or submitted as a valid score. If the rules for the game state no use of glitches or exploits.. then that means just that..no use of glitches or exploits.

 

Twin Galaxies was a good idea when it started out...but it became the center of a controversy which tainted the integrity of what Walter Day started it out to be... and it is still being questioned to this day...decades later.

 

In all honesty..when you see a score on Twin Galaxies..do you take it for face value.. or does something in the back of your mind say.. can I trust this score?

 

I cannot decide that for you ... that is something you have to decide for yourself....but even a shred of doubt can cause you to question it. and that is where you have to be honest with yourself.

Edited March 13, 2014 by NIKON

[Gray]

I can't weigh in on these weighty topics but my 2 cents is that Highscore.com is pretty cool and it just needs more players posting and voting over there

Cheers all.

[atarilovesyou]

Regarding TG's decision to pay for scores, the way I look at it is this: even with all the warts, they're still 'the' place that comes to mind that even gives a rat's ass about video games scores. From my limited knowledge of how it's run, I can't see there being many ways for it to make money. You need an eccentric like Walter Day or the other cast of characters to even allow such a service to exist, because I don't know of many with that kind of dedication (again, warts and all).

 

If they're charging a nominal fee to enter scores, then I'd be ok with that. If only because I realize that there needs to be some kind of income to make the organization feasible today...but as far as cheating goes, just another reason to charge a fee. I'll tell ya, most cheating bastards are cheapskates to begin with and wouldn't pony up a penny to be 'recognized'.

 

PS: after Lance Armstrong, can anybody 'vouch' for anybody these days? As far as people standing up for TR, that holds very little weight with me these days. Armstrong lied to millions about taking PEDs and the same, worn out excuses and blame shifting occurred. Now, these are quite different obviously but for me anyway (call it being jaded, but for good reason) unless I see it with my own eyes (or through a trusted judge or official) and there's a substantial evidence that points to guilt, well...call me cynical or whatever, but I won't believe it.

Edited March 31, 2014 by atarilovesyou

[Botbird208]

After some searching, I found that There is a website called 2600 connection with a section for easter eggs, with todd rogers name linked to a good amount of them.

http://www.2600connection.com/eastereggs/eastereggs.html

 

Now, a long while ago, Todd Rogers posted a supposedly bogus score on Taz in the 2600 HSC. the highest score, based on the scoring system, was 999500. TR had gotten 999900, which many said was impossible. TR explained by saying he had "a rare 1984 release" which had "a different scoring system." The HSC people probably started to make him angry because noone could find a rom for this 1984 release, and they kicked Todd Rogers out. TR hasnt been in the HSC.

 

Again, back to 2600 connection, I went to the Taz eastereggs and found that someone put a a fact that stated "2 known versions of this game exist, including a rare 1984 release..." and there was a link right there in that section to Hsc club week 16, where TR was "banned", so you have got to think TR wrote that to make his fake score sound legit.

 

Note: TR's name wasnt associated with that fact as it was with other easter eggs... there was no name to go with it.

 

So, what do you think? Cover up or legit?

[Troy_Whelan]

The 2600 connection updates content from various gamers, not necessarily from the result of research or confirmation. Todd is well known there so they likely updated the content based on his input.

[Botbird208]

Exactly... His input was put on the Taz eastereggs to make it seem as though his score was legit! He also said in the taz Hsc that there must be 2 versions of taz and that the 1984 version scored differently. the Taz thing on 2600 connection was made after that HSC because in that Taz section they have a link leading to the taz HSC.

 

Something I forgot to mention: There have also been HSC's, such as the one with cosmic ark, where Todd Rogers scored exactly 400000. Exactly. He mustve used some editor with that.

[S.BAZ]

Something I forgot to mention: There have also been HSC's, such as the one with cosmic ark, where Todd Rogers scored exactly 400000. Exactly. He mustve used some editor with that.

 

actually that is very easy to do in Cosmic Ark. (I don't mean scoring that high, that's an incredible score) Ending your game on a nice tidy number like that is totally realistic in that game because the meteors are worth 10pts. each. And you can always skip the other part by just declining to abduct critters... which takes you back to the meteor part. So if you ever have a huge score that you're satisfied with & you would like to just go to bed, all you have to do is watch your score whenever you're approaching an even thousand or whatever, and then let yourself die when you have exactly that score.

 

many times people achieving world-records have ended on a nice even number for the aesthetic value. For example Bryan Wagner when he purposely killed himself off at exactly 9,000,000 pts. on Burgertime when he set the Twin Galaxies arcade world record in 2006. Or when Billy Mitchell ended his Centipede game with 25,000,001 pts. after 47 straight hours playing the game.

 

It doesn't mean somebody used an editor, people actually do that intentionally.

 

 

His input was put on the Taz eastereggs to make it seem as though his score was legit!

 

Maybe. --But isn't it also possible that his input was put on the Taz eastereggs because his score was legit?

 

It seems to me the 2600 Connection at least might have verified that before reporting it, check out their standards for authenticity in their current contest.

 

That Taz discrepancy is also something very easy to prove or disprove if you have a 1984 Taz cart. Todd gives a detailed enough description of how to get that score and it's something you can test out on the first level. So I don't know, but it seems to me at least plausible that the 2600 Connection might have verified that first. He also said he had filmed his game & offered to send a copy to anyone interested.

 

Another point -- check out post #97 in the Taz thread (2004, 1st season, week 16). A big apology from the guy who called him out & accused him with a breakdown of why his score was impossible. From reading that apology it looks like the very guy who accused him became convinced that Todd Rogers' score was legit before the round was over.

 

...so I'm just sayin' it still looks unclear to me. My question is: does a 1984 Taz cartridge exist?

 

I only have Taz from '83, '86 & '87, or else I would have tested it out myself. Anyone here have one from 1984?

[Fr0st]

I can't weigh in on these weighty topics but my 2 cents is that Highscore.com is pretty cool and it just needs more players posting and voting over there

Cheers all.

 

Yea, the voting thing is frustrating, because there aren't a whole lot of members yet I assume. I have three or four scores 'hanging' at the minute waiting for votes and it looks like they'll sit that way for a while. Is 25 votes not a bit much for verification?

 

Not having a go, it's definitely a brilliant site and a great way to log scores you get in games, I plan on using it a lot from now on to keep a record for myself.

[Gray]

 

Yea, the voting thing is frustrating, because there aren't a whole lot of members yet I assume. I have three or four scores 'hanging' at the minute waiting for votes and it looks like they'll sit that way for a while. Is 25 votes not a bit much for verification?

 

Not having a go, it's definitely a brilliant site and a great way to log scores you get in games, I plan on using it a lot from now on to keep a record for myself.

Exactly. Unfortunately the number of regularly active members on Highscore.com seems a bit low (20ish) right now which means 25 votes is too many. In fact I have all 10 or 15 of my scores still waiting for approval! But then if he lowered it to 15 votes and then down the track raised it again when the site got busier, people would complain about the validity of the old 15-vote scores :-)

 

But as you said its a handy place to log scores anyway, if only for your own reference. I have found a new interest in playing older games when when im tracking the scores. It gives me a purpose to playing.

 

Hopefully the site will only get busier and then scores should be voted in within a couple of days, max. That would be ideal.