Keatah Posted January 18, 2014 Author Share Posted January 18, 2014 I tend to believe more and more that the PC market turned stupid with the Introduction of the Pentium and "out-of-order execution" of instructions. Out-of-order execution units and all kinds of cache configurations, MHz was beginning to mean less and less. Remember the gay-ass AMD PR (performance ratings)? This opened up box of bullshit for marketing personnel to feed you. Now they could play with names instead of numbers. Though they continued to do all sorts of backhanded and misleading things with numbers too. Higher numbers and more suffixes also meant castrated chips or slower performance. ahh well.. Go read the redhill guide! And consider how much marketing convoluted the PC industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgeld Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 in the meantime I control 54 differential analog measurements (1000 samples per second) ,1600x1200 machine imaging, optical measurements, 3d barcode scanning, two 10 amp power supplies, an agilent multimeter, 4 solenoids, and 8 solid state relays, and run dozens of tests on a pcb in under 10 seconds all from 1 USB 3 port, running less than two pages of code written in C# on a windows 8 box that was bought at best buy on clearance for 199$ dumb is what you make it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almightytodd Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 When did the PC market get "stupid"? I would say right around the introduction of Windows 95 and the Pentium MMX. Up till then, the PC was all serious business and productivity oriented. But once those super-gay MMX commercials and dumbing down of the interface (Win95) came to pass - all went to hell... I think some terminology definitions are in order to have a meaningful conversation on this topic. If you mean "stupid" in terms of engineering elegance and designing hardware and software to get the maximum use out of a limited number of bits, bytes, system bus, clock cycles and available display technology; that's one discussion. But if you mean the ability to engineer systems that are available to the masses and allow people with no prior computer experience to have access to the World Wide Web, make purchases on Amazon and eBay, and make hotel and air travel reservations themselves rather than going through a Travel Agent, that's a completely different discussion. There were a whole lot of personal computers sold between 1995 and 2000. If the measurement is in profits generated through computer sales, these design engineers and marketers were "dumb like a fox"... The other question that needs to be asked relative to any discussion like this is, "Compared to what?". Are you comparing the IBM format computers with other computer technology available for home use at the time? In 1995 that would be pretty much limited to Macintosh, as offerings by Atari and Commodore were all gone by then. Are you comparing PCs to "legitimate" science and business equipment such as IBM Mainframes, Unix systems, Sun Microsystems, or Silicon Graphics Inc? The costs for those kinds of systems were orders of magnitude greater than a PC clone - and in 1995 a state-of-the-art PC wasn't cheap. I would hope that a company spending $74,000 on an SGI IRIS 4D system would get something slightly less "stupid" than an IBM PC clone. Even before there were IBM clones, the IBM format PC was never meant to compete with "real" computer systems. At more than $4,000 1982 dollars for a full system when they first came out (...which would compare with something like $12,000 of today's dollars), many of the first IBM PC customers were corporate business executives (Sr Vice President and above) who wanted a PC as a status symbol in their office, or a means to get access to information without having to submit requests to the IT and reports departments, or Preston Tucker wannabee entrepreneurs starting up new businesses with loans and investment money who wanted to have their own personal computer "system" to "run their business" and be on the cutting-edge of the new technologically-bound way of doing business in America in the 80s. ...I'm wondering if every post in this thread should be concluded with, "Get off my lawn"! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSA Starfire Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I stopped worrying about graphics cards after the GeForce 4 era, mostly. Following all the marketing-induced granulation and thousands of variations just got to be too time-consuming. No fun anymore. I feel MMX ushered in a new philosophy in CPU design. Pentium-MMX. It was the first commercially marketed CPU that had a major new instruction set added. While MMX may have had dubious value in gaming and real-world applications, the trend it started did not. It was the first in a long long line of instruction set add-ons such as SSE SSE2 SSE3 SSSE3 SSE4 SSE5 AES AVX F16C XOP FMA3 FMA4. I will however agree the marketing for it was a joke. Just as bad as the Disco era! That and of course the NetBurst fiasco. Anything and everything "dotcom" and "net" related feels ridiculous to me. In fact, the bloated enthusiasm of the pc marketscape during 1998-2007 feels like a circus tent pressurized with oxygen! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netburst http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_instruction_listings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_instruction_sets#Intel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot-com_bubble All of these supposedly "stupid" things have paved the way for computers to become what they are today, sure some technologies became dead ends, but all have driven us forward one way or another. I for one would not like to go back to 486 CPU's, in order execution, ISA or any of that. Even netburst that you seem to deride so much much brought us forward, quad pumped FSB, Hyper-threading,vastly improved branch predictors and learning about the effects of electromigration, at very high clock speeds. none of these were a waste of time, it's all a learning curve. I hope the manufacturers be it CPU or GPU continue to strongly compete, stagnation is worse than the occasional failure. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desiv Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 When they start selling a new Windows OS with Blast Processing support, then I'll be impressed. desiv 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega-TI Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Stupid? Another way to frame the question could be, "Why are some people so judgemental and arrogant?" Pardon me folks, but one persons 'stupid' is another persons 'working man' without all the time in the world, like the proverbial teenager in his mother's basement, spending uncounted hours a day on code to become a proficient 'Uber Programmer'. Many of us work for a living and do not have the time to bring ourselves up to some level arbitrarily set by another. Some of the so-called 'programming elitists' might not know the first thing about biochemistry, brain surgery or rocket science, but that does not make them any more 'stupid' than the other guy. The computer used to be a hobby box. On average people spend more time on a hobby than they do with their microwave. The personal computer has become an appliance, like a toaster. It's only natural that a larger percentage of the users would not appear to be as awestruck with a toaster or care to learn it's inner workings. Now those who do have a genuine interest come to these threads to look around AND LEARN might get turned off by the attitudes. Who wants to hang out at a place where a newbie feels or is quite literally called 'stupid'? Will that newbie risk asking a 'stupid' question or will he just go away, never learning what could be? We were all IGNORANT at one point. Ignorance is not stupidity. It's a shame that some lose sight of where they have been, and look down upon others... and what they used to be. Just my humble opinion. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted January 19, 2014 Author Share Posted January 19, 2014 All of these supposedly "stupid" things have paved the way for computers to become what they are today, sure some technologies became dead ends, but all have driven us forward one way or another. I for one would not like to go back to 486 CPU's, in order execution, ISA or any of that. Even netburst that you seem to deride so much much brought us forward, quad pumped FSB, Hyper-threading,vastly improved branch predictors and learning about the effects of electromigration, at very high clock speeds. none of these were a waste of time, it's all a learning curve. I hope the manufacturers be it CPU or GPU continue to strongly compete, stagnation is worse than the occasional failure. My only issue with that statement is that the respective company's marketing departments did their damnedest to make you think each product iteration was the end all be all. Intel spent millions in PR dollars convincing you Slot-1 was the way forward and socketed CPUs were so-yesterday. 5 years later, poooof! We're back to socketed chips. That's one tiny miniscule example. And all we learned was that slotted chips were big and bulky and had too long electrical pathways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPA5 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Stupid? Another way to frame the question could be, "Why are some people so judgemental and arrogant?" Pardon me folks, but one persons 'stupid' is another persons 'working man' without all the time in the world, like the proverbial teenager in his mother's basement, spending uncounted hours a day on code to become a proficient 'Uber Programmer'. Many of us work for a living and do not have the time to bring ourselves up to some level arbitrarily set by another. Some of the so-called 'programming elitists' might not know the first thing about biochemistry, brain surgery or rocket science, but that does not make them any more 'stupid' than the other guy. The computer used to be a hobby box. On average people spend more time on a hobby than they do with their microwave. The personal computer has become an appliance, like a toaster. It's only natural that a larger percentage of the users would not appear to be as awestruck with a toaster or care to learn it's inner workings. Now those who do have a genuine interest come to these threads to look around AND LEARN might get turned off by the attitudes. Who wants to hang out at a place where a newbie feels or is quite literally called 'stupid'? Will that newbie risk asking a 'stupid' question or will he just go away, never learning what could be? We were all IGNORANT at one point. Ignorance is not stupidity. It's a shame that some lose sight of where they have been, and look down upon others... and what they used to be. Just my humble opinion. This times 1000. My mom is a great example of the merits of accessible technology. My dad was at the forefront of electronics and computers as they emerged. He built the kits, got the electronics mags, played with circuits, he was a nerd. He eventually ended up in the IT market and now manages huge systems for healthcare. He is a smart guy, and I know I'll never have even half of the knowledge that man has stashed away in his brain, and I respect him hugely. My mother, bless her, has never gotten along with technology. My dad affectionately refers to many stories of her inability to work technology. She is a music major, she's always been more creative than geeky. However, eventually my dad got her onto an iMac, and she started to learn to use it. Now, because she's a naturally intelligent person and because the system was so easily workable, she actually managed to pick it up rather quickly. Now, she bounces all over the web for recipes, crochet patterns, uses email to keep in touch with her sister a province away, and reads up on things that interest her (classical music, etc). Eventually my dad got her an iPad, and she picked that up even faster than the iMac. She loves being able to call up recipes on her iPad and have it sitting in the kitchen while she bakes and cooks. She loves having it set up playing Netflix while she folds laundry. She loves reading books on it, playing Bejewled, looking up weather info, and listening to online radio. Those devices were made accessible to someone who is intelligent, but not savvy with technology. So my feeling is this... Is it good to have an elitist attitude about those "dumb" PC users that need to be catered to? I look at people like my mom, who is very intelligent, but not savvy when it comes to technology. Because the computing market was made easy to use, people like my mom (and I know there's many like my mom) can use all the resources of technology to add to their lives without needing a degree. Lot's of people in this world are intelligent, just not with computers. I have a friend who is so good with engines it's almost frightening, but he can't work a computer to save his life. Is he "stupid"? No, he just needs technology he can understand, because he's a genius with things that aren't computers and tech. So his iPad lets him look up manuals, videos, and other resources while he's working on vehicles, because it's easy to use. I think to a certain extent the PC market did lose some of it's excitement to people like us, who think vintage computers have an ingenious charm and level of expertise to them. But to treat the everyday PC (and by PC I mean tech in general) user as if they're stupid because they want easy to use, easy to run tech is elitist. This is of course also only my opinion, and I do not wish to offend with it. I'm just glad my mechanic friend doesn't treat me like I'm stupid when I don't understand the in's and out's of cams, pistons, timing, engine retard rates, and fuel flow. Edited January 21, 2014 by TPA5 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 While there are techies who genuinely disdain casual PC users I'm pretty sure this topic is about the dumbing down of PCs rather than dumb people. The PC is not an appliance: it's a tool. Like any tool it requires knowledge, maintenance and respect. At some point PC manufacturers decided to pretend it was a toaster and people lost respect - sometimes even in the very people whom the knowledge and maintenance was offloaded onto. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Sometimes the PC eco-system is "engineered" in such a bastardized way not even the best of us can figure it out. People need to stop treating the PC establishment as benchmark of perfect logic and common sense. There are many times, the PC needs to be "this" instead of "that". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 While there are techies who genuinely disdain casual PC users I'm pretty sure this topic is about the dumbing down of PCs rather than dumb people. The PC is not an appliance: it's a tool. Like any tool it requires knowledge, maintenance and respect. At some point PC manufacturers decided to pretend it was a toaster and people lost respect - sometimes even in the very people whom the knowledge and maintenance was offloaded onto. Techies that do that are real assholes. I know many of them. It bothers me that when they changed it from "tool" to "appliance" they did half-assed job. You still need a level of technical know how, or be really smart like TPA5 said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 One huge crushing blow on the way down to applianceville was the cheapening of PCs. Easy does not equal inexpensive. When mom and pop bought an eMachine and the power supply blew it sometimes required an investment close to %50 percent of the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 I think the conversion to appliance-like devices happened in parallel with cheapening. One can have a high-quality appliance like the iPad. Cheapening simply comes from trying to find the most economical way to make something. They push lower and lower till the product fails. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ripdubski Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Was it ever smart? Its been marketing dollars for dominance since the mid 80's. And the only way to mass market something highly technical is to dumb it down to the lowest common denominator - the un-technical user. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClausB Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 It got stupid when people started calling a hard disk a "hard drive." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 If you want to say what would have happened if something had been done different I am more than willing to speculate. If you want to say things were stupid? I probably complain as much as anyone because I don't like how something was done. I've probably even called some thing or other stupid in a conversation here. But when it comes to PCs, we have all benefited greatly from that stupidity. The amount of increased productivity due to more people having access to computers is astounding, so I really can't fault people for trying to make computers accessible to more people. I can't fault companies for trying to make their product more attractive through marketing or new features, even if some of those features are of questionable value in hindsight. Could things have been better? I can't say we would be any better off if something had been done differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 Isn't the computer (like most tools) being used to dispose of people and put them out of work? If not that, then a means of control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgeld Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) our company is extremely technical based as its a electronics design and manufacturing facility here in the USA, every single thing we do requires a computer to complete it, and we employ over 100 people, which for a 2007 startup is not too shabby considering our output volume (ie 10's of millions of units of product a year) we could hire more workers, do everything by hand, but our quality would hit the floor, our production rate would stall and our cost of product would skyrocket, as it sits we are a USA manufacturing plant with USA designers and actually coming out equal or less cost than china in every single platform we do. in this case computers and roboitics are letting us compete, if not overcome army's of near slave labor from abroad, thus making a stronger workforce / economy here at home Edited February 23, 2014 by Osgeld 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 in this case computers and roboitics are letting us compete, if not overcome army's of near slave labor from abroad, thus making a stronger workforce / economy here at home ..for those mentally capable of serving in such an organization. The common man looks like a 'tard when you throw him into such an environment. An environment full of "tech". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgeld Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) um sorry, almost our entire crew(s) are common man. Unlike your elitist attitude it really densest take much to read a error message and clear a jam, our production staff requirements are high school diploma, and show up on time I don't think that that makes people look like a tard. wake up man its 2014 people have been working in tandem with robots and computers for over 40 years now. getting to the point where things you fear have been around for almost 2 generations, and its quite pathetic that you fear text on a screen with a big flashing green button on the front of a box, when in the real world we have people retiring from this situation and have absolutely no problem dealing with this "scary" stuff Edited February 23, 2014 by Osgeld Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mika73 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 After Commodore died.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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