telengard Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) I've been using one of these for quite a while on my 1040, love it. Today, fired up the machine and my mouse wasn't working. Plugged the mouse in directly and it worked fine. I have a 2nd Mouse Master I use w/ an Amiga and that also did not work. Anyone else have one of these and have seen this behavior. I'm really not sure what to look at next. If one was busted, I'd think about replacing the chip in there, but both not working... the MM was working fine just last night. Anything I can try, maybe some diag software? I should probably mention what the device does. It allows you to switch between your mouse and joystick without having to muck w/ the ports on the ST. Here's a picture: Edited February 25, 2014 by telengard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GadgetUK Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Most likely dry solder joints under sockets. Try taking it to bits and examine the solder points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zogging Hell Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Haven't got one and given the simplicity of the design of those things I can't imagine there is much to go wrong with the unit itself. My only thought would be that there is a connection problem on the mouse port. Does the Mouse master hang off the port or is it on a desk? I'm just wondering whether when you push the mouse in on it's own it is getting a better connection (possible due to the infamous gaming ports problem loosening solder. If you put the original mouse in on its own and pull it (gently) up down left and right, does it also loose connection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GadgetUK Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Also possible that you've got dry joints on the ST joystick ports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zogging Hell Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Sorry GadgetUK didn't see your post before I replied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telengard Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Thanks for the help everyone! It plugs in just as a mouse would. The unit then sits on the desk so you can flip the switch, etc. The big selling point of the device is you don't have to deal with changing stuff in the ports underneath the ST. It doesn't seem like a loose connection thing. I plug the mouse in, and it works every time, I plug the mouse master in and it now doesn't work at all (and I've tried 2 difference mice and 2 different Mouse Masters). I have no idea if this is related, but I should mention it. As I said, it was working fine Sunday. Before using it again last night I connected my ST to my NX-1000 dot matrix printer (using a DB25 -> Centronics cable). When I booted the ST the Mouse Master wouldn't work. I can't imagine they are related, just thought I would mention it just in case. Edited February 25, 2014 by telengard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zogging Hell Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 What happens with a joystick in the mouse port and also in the joystick port? Dumb question but I'm presuming you tried it with the printer not connected? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telengard Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) What happens with a joystick in the mouse port and also in the joystick port? Dumb question but I'm presuming you tried it with the printer not connected? Putting joysticks in both ports on the mouse master and switching between mouse/joystick, neither work. Using Plutos 2 player as my test. So same behavior as the mouse. Works fine when plugged in directly, but not through the Mouse Master. Yup, The printer cable has been disconnected since I noticed the issue. I looked at a schematic of the ST today and I couldn't see any correlation between the two (printer port in mouse/joystick inputs). The printer port seems to be serviced as a part of the sound chip. Edited February 26, 2014 by telengard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zogging Hell Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Hhhmm looking at the mouse master, it would seem that the joystick port should be direct connection through, and shouldn't require any electronics at all, so I'm a bit non plussed if the mouse ports are ok. My only other thought is that the small amount of power coming from the ST joystick port, which is presumably used to power this thing has either reduced or is getting grounded somewhere(enough to run things when directly plugged in, but not the mouse master as well). This might in that case be a power supply issue. Might be worth checking the 5V line on pin 7 of both the ports on your ST. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telengard Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 Hhhmm looking at the mouse master, it would seem that the joystick port should be direct connection through, and shouldn't require any electronics at all, so I'm a bit non plussed if the mouse ports are ok. My only other thought is that the small amount of power coming from the ST joystick port, which is presumably used to power this thing has either reduced or is getting grounded somewhere(enough to run things when directly plugged in, but not the mouse master as well). This might in that case be a power supply issue. Might be worth checking the 5V line on pin 7 of both the ports on your ST. Good idea. I've moved the machine to the basement where my scope is etc. Going to poke at it tonight. There is some basic circuitry in the Mouse Master, nothing fancy, but not a glorified switch either. I think I remember reading that something about it was "intelligent" about what was connected. I just use the switch for games that require a joystick on port 0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz73 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 If you aren't able to get that one working again, Bruce at B&C Computervisions still has them for $19.95. http://www.myatari.com/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telengard Posted February 27, 2014 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 If you aren't able to get that one working again, Bruce at B&C Computervisions still has them for $19.95. http://www.myatari.com/index.html Good to know, thanks. Hopefully both of mine are still working and there is an issue w/ the ST I can fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telengard Posted February 27, 2014 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 So I spent some more time on this tonight. Here's what I found. - 5V on the joy/mouse port looks fine. - I took my keyboard apart to get at the DSUB-9 pins when a mouse was connected and the signals are showing up fine on my scope when moving the mouse etc, when using the mouse through Mouse Master nothing shows up at all. - I took apart the Mouse Master and looked for the datasheet of the chip in there (HD74LS157P) so I could check out those signals see if the inputs and or outputs were working or not. What I found, and I don't know enough about electronics as to *why* this would happen, but when I hooked up my scope probe ground to pin 8 on the chip (GND), everything started working. Very repeatable. I'm at a loss for why this could happen, but I imagine there is some rational explanation for it. I also don't get why it would happen with *2* Mouse Masters unless the issue is on the ST side. If it happened with one, maybe a cold solder joint? Stumped... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Funky blow-back voltage from the ST to the Mouse Master and your applying voltage to pin 8 of the I.C. caused the chip to un-stick a bit? Do you plug and un-plug joysticks or mice while the computer is on by chance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GadgetUK Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Could be a missing ground? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zogging Hell Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure how the Amiga is wired up on the joystick/ mouse side, but obviously it is different (I have three but I've never had cause to study the joystick ports much), and there may be a difference in the connections which may explain why the mouse master works on Amiga and not works on the ST. If the grounds or some other bits are in different places it might explain something. Does the mouse master 'auto sensing' thing you mentioned detect if it is connected to an Amiga or ST by any chance? I can't see why you would need auto detecting otherwise, with that nice big switch on top.. While writing that I came across this http://www.lemon64.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10547&sid=24630c686df3a4522bc1fc3f54eaa89b not directly relevant but it did mention something about the autosensing is for prevent the voltage feedback you would get from plugging and unplugging stuff when the computer is on, so scratch that last bit (maybe). Edited February 27, 2014 by Zogging Hell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GadgetUK Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) That fact that putting meter probe to ground pin causes it to work leads me to believe you've got a grounding problem. Possibly the ground pin is loose or there's a dry joint on socket pins, possibly even damaged wire? Could also be the mouse, have you tried another mouse? Could also be a failed pull up in that TTL chip you mentioned! Certainly smells like a grounding / pull up problem. Edited February 27, 2014 by GadgetUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telengard Posted February 27, 2014 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) Funky blow-back voltage from the ST to the Mouse Master and your applying voltage to pin 8 of the I.C. caused the chip to un-stick a bit? Do you plug and un-plug joysticks or mice while the computer is on by chance? So some kind of additional voltage being carried on the 5V line? Like a ripple voltage, etc? I don't hot plug anything on my old computers. The mouse master stayed attached to the ST and the mouse/joystick was plugged in before turning on. @GadgetUK That's what I was thinking, that my placing the scope ground to the ground pin it was somehow providing ground. Not sure if that is the correct way to say it or describe it. What's throwing a wrench in the whole thing is that 2 pretty much NOS Mouse Masters are doing this. I will ensure they work w/ my Amiga tonight (and with the new STF I have coming in the next few days). Yes, I've tried another mouse, same behavior. So for the pull up should I check the resistor on the PCB? @Zogging Hell I had found that post @ Lemon too, thanks. I too noticed the slightly bigger hole on the plugs. I'm going to setup the Amiga tonight and ensure these things still work with that. If they do, my guess is there's something going on w/ ground on the ST. I've seen the length of traces etc affect pretty high speed stuff, but is there any big difference between the ground @ pin 8 on the DB 9 and that same ground extended along the cable to the Mouse Master? Thanks /so/ much for the help guys. Much appreciated! Edited February 27, 2014 by telengard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telengard Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 More testing tonight, both Mouse Masters work on my Amiga 500. So based on some of the suggestions in this thread to check out the ground, I started pinning out from the GND of that chip back and noticed that there was no DSUB socket in spot 8 of the DB9 that goes in Mouse/Joy0. Then I looked at Joy 1 and it had no socket on pin 7. So, based on that I plugged both into the ST and it worked! So it seems the Mouse Master gets +5V from one plug and GND from the other. I imagine if I had instructions for this it probably says to keep both plugged in always. Not exactly sure how this initially got started because both were plugged in because it was working the previous night. I'll have to check to see if the same goes for the Amiga. Well, thanks so much everyone for you help. Quite the learning experience! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GadgetUK Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) I would hazard a guess that the ground pin in one of your st ports has suffered the standard torque fatigue problem. It happens to all STs. If you've never resoldered the ST joystick ports (have to dismantle the whole keyboard first), then its very likely that. It's just lucky that ground is coming from the other port. You could prove that by testing on Amiga just using one port connected. Edited February 28, 2014 by GadgetUK 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie_ Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) Fatigue is why I use these 9 pin ICD male and female for all my "retro" computers and even a few game systems. Strip off 9 wires worth from any old floppy or hdd cable and you have a perfect extension. Plug it in once and you never need to put stress on the machines port again. http://www.circuitspecialists.com/fde-09sm.html I got a small version with a mouse I purchased from amiman99 here on the forums. Since then I've been building custom lengths for all my needs. It really make the ports being under the ST a non-issue. Edited March 1, 2014 by Official Ninja 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GadgetUK Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I've also seen people fit a dedicated 'mouse port' on the side of the ST as well with a switch. You can use the switch to toggle the ground point I think between the internal connector and the external one, that way you can have both joysticks plugged into the original ports and a mouse plugged into the side. And finally there are the joystick extenders which I use - normally £5 ish on EBAY and give you 7 or 8 inch 'fly leeds' that allow you to leave the ST ports alone and just plug mice and joysticks into the extension sockets instead. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie_ Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) I've also seen people fit a dedicated 'mouse port' on the side of the ST as well with a switch. You can use the switch to toggle the ground point I think between the internal connector and the external one, that way you can have both joysticks plugged into the original ports and a mouse plugged into the side. And finally there are the joystick extenders which I use - normally £5 ish on EBAY and give you 7 or 8 inch 'fly leeds' that allow you to leave the ST ports alone and just plug mice and joysticks into the extension sockets instead. I have a couple of the 'fly leeds' like I see in your avatar picture. They are good but the ends are kinda bulky. I got them on ebay UK when I 1st started playing with the ST computers. Here are the IDC adapters, how I use them with my Mega STe. I pulled the KB back a bit to show how it allows me to hide all the mouse hook-up behind the KB. Also a long run allows me to keep the joystick on the right side of my setup. And the IDC connectors don't stick out any more than 5/8 from the KB on each side. Edited March 2, 2014 by Official Ninja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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