Atari Jaguar Capabilities

[NeoGeoNinja]

So the Jag takes a 3D mauling and a 2D severe beating. Annnndd that's a wrap for the 'is the Jag a PS1 in disguise' line of conversation...

 

Pretty much like 108 has already stated, objectively speaking, there's no real comparison to be had (re: PS1 & Saturn, especially).

 

But... the 2D thing.

 

It's a bit of an unknown quantity.

 

We only got to see a couple of glimpses and, the only real one - being developed by a big deal (i.e. Ubi) was of course, Rayman.

 

Other examples would include Super Burnout, Power Drive Rally, NBA JAM TE and, maybe even Trevor McFur. The obvious problem with a lot of the titles developed for the Jag is that they were put together on shoe-string budgets and 1-man, or very small teams. The small team/one man band aspect is usually evidenced strongly by the art style or art direction. Super Burnout suffers a bit in this dept unfortunately (i.e. although the game looks and runs very smoothly, I find the art direction/style unpleasant at times).

 

Some games showed promise, such as Raiden and Ultra Vortek, but just lacked polish. They just weren't smooth enough. Doesn't matter what people will TRY and tell you about Raiden, and it being arcade perfect etc etc. It isn't. It just plays like an average 16-bit port of Raiden when, in reality, it SHOULD have played JUST like the Arcade version. Fact.

 

As Rayman showed, and some of the other 2D titles, I can't help but feel that the Jag had more to offer in that dept, but alas, amidst all the usual speculation, we will never actually know. Had the likes of Rayman and Super Burnout not existed, I would have probably called it as a simple 'closed case'. And, for all intents and purposes, it is really.

 

But man... wouldn't it have been interesting to have seen Capcom port Super Street Fighter II Turbo or Street Fighter Alpha (1) to the Jag... or even Midway bring UMK3/MKTrilogy to the Jag.

 

Rayman is the only measurement we have in that dept to be honest...

[Austin]

 

Rayman is the only measurement we have in that dept to be honest...

 

The problem with this kind of measurement (simply comparing games side by side, in which this case the Jag--Rayman aside--is lacking sorely), is that is tough to argue with numbers.

[Willard]

Other examples would include Super Burnout, Power Drive Rally, NBA JAM TE and, maybe even Trevor McFur. The obvious problem with a lot of the titles developed for the Jag is that they were put together on shoe-string budgets and 1-man, or very small teams. The small team/one man band aspect is usually evidenced strongly by the art style or art direction. Super Burnout suffers a bit in this dept unfortunately (i.e. although the game looks and runs very smoothly, I find the art direction/style unpleasant at times).

 

I think there is also the matter of the Jaguar being a cartridge console. Yes it could do impressive 2D but there is a limit to how much high res, high color depth assets you can put on a cart when you're working with 2-4mb of space. I think that, all things considered, the jaguar really had as much 2D potential as it needed.

 

Defender 2K, for example, I don't think was limited by the hardware restrictions, it looks good and plays fast, and didn't look any better simply because it was exactly how atari envisioned it.

 

But as you mentioned, even if space wasn't an issue, Atari didn't have the budget (or at least, mismanaged projects so badly) that it wouldn't have made a difference.

[ydcl]

If you notice, most systems hit their peak in terms of graphics years later. Look at the NES early games versus their last games years later. It takes a while for developers to truly grasp the power of a system.

Atari Jaguar had 2 years or so and it was shut down.

 

I'm not that knowledgeable on hardware, so can someone answer this:

If N64 was 64bits, the PS1 was 32bits, what was the Jaguar?

[Austin]

Look at the NES early games versus their last games years later.

 

Generally you are right, but the NES (and likewise the SNES) isn't the best example due to the extra memory mappers and other specialized chips added to the carts down the line. They allowed these systems to do things they wouldn't normally be able to. Outside of very specific and heavily advertised instances (say, the Super FX chip, or Sega's competitor for the Genesis), these were implemented in a way where the player wouldn't have an idea there was anything extra or special going on behind the scenes.

[twoquickcapri]

I'm not that knowledgeable on hardware, so can someone answer this:

If N64 was 64bits, the PS1 was 32bits, what was the Jaguar?

Your knowledge on what a bit is and how it impacts systems performance is not right.

 

Just because one systems is "32 bits" and another is "64 bits" doesn't automatically make the the "64 bit" system better.

[swapd0]

The biggest problem with the Jaguar is that it lacks some cache and write buffers, and without them you can't get great performance into a system with shared memory.

[108 Stars]

The Jaguar had great capabilities in getting fans to buy near unplayable games, ruining what was left of Atari's once good reputation, causing heart attacks for Atari's boss and giving the company the death blow after the long suffering. It really excelled in those areas.

 

It also encouraged Jack Tramiel to send a unit flying through the room, which probably inspired Nintendo to then promote its upcoming N64 at press conferences throwing PlayStations and Saturns through the room proclaiming "this doesn't fly".

 

So the Jag has the capabilities to generate money from crap (to this very day, actually), to nearly kill people connected with it, to kill a company with an over 20 year history and to inspire the competition.

Edited March 30, 2014 by 108 Stars

[+CyranoJ]

No, the biggest problem with the Jaguar is even if/when you do write that totally killer AAA game it'll still be unplayable due to the fucking controllers!

 

Can you actually imagine trying to play SF2 or MK on the Jagpad? Seriously?

 

The biggest problem with the Jaguar is that it lacks some cache and write buffers, and without them you can't get great performance into a system with shared memory.

Edited March 30, 2014 by CyranoJ

[swapd0]

No, the biggest problem with the Jaguar is even if/when you do write that totally killer AAA game it'll still be unplayable due to the fucking controllers!

 

Can you actually imagine trying to play SF2 or MK on the Jagpad? Seriously?

 

I don't like SF2 neither MK... XD

[Umberto]

The Jaguar had great capabilities in getting fans to buy near unplayable games, ruining what was left of Atari's once good reputation, causing heart attacks for Atari's boss and giving the company the death blow after the long suffering. It really excelled in those areas.

 

It also encouraged Jack Tramiel to send a unit flying through the room, which probably inspired Nintendo to then promote its upcoming N64 at press conferences throwing PlayStations and Saturns through the room proclaiming "this doesn't fly".

 

So the Jag has the capabilities to generate money from crap (to this very day, actually), to nearly kill people connected with it, to kill a company with an over 20 year history and to inspire the competition.

So what of or anything do you like about the Atari platform

[JagChris]

We play Ultra Vortek and Primal Rage using the controllers. I don't see how it would be much different than that.

 

No, the biggest problem with the Jaguar is even if/when you do write that totally killer AAA game it'll still be unplayable due to the fucking controllers!

 

Can you actually imagine trying to play SF2 or MK on the Jagpad? Seriously?

 

[+CyranoJ]

So, crap, mushy and unresponsive then. Check

 

We could really use a DualShock <> Jag adapter.

 

We play Ultra Vortek and Primal Rage using the controllers. I don't see how it would be much different than that.

 

Edited March 31, 2014 by CyranoJ

[108 Stars]

So what of or anything do you like about the Atari platform

Liking Atari-platforms (or any other for that matter) does not mean praising everything about it.

After me being here in this forum for several years and with over 1600 posts I think I can honestly say I'm an Atari-fan. I wouldn't have wasted so much time here otherwise, don't you think?

[+CyranoJ]

Exactly.

 

I love the Jaguar, I love working with it, and I love playing games on it. However, the controllers suck arse, and the CD unit is made out of crap, cheap components that screw up regularly and fail if you look at them. There is no point putting on the rose tinted shades, some of these Jag parts are just cheap and crap, and many of the games are just terrible

 

Doesn't mean the system is horrible or someone hates it tho. Just being realistic.

 

Liking Atari-platforms (or any other for that matter) does not mean praising everything about it.

After me being here in this forum for several years and with over 1600 posts I think I can honestly say I'm an Atari-fan. I wouldn't have wasted so much time here otherwise, don't you think?

[JagChris]

No. They work fine.

 

So, crap, mushy and unresponsive then. Check

 

We could really use a DualShock <> Jag adapter.

 

[+CyranoJ]

Have you tried playing without wearing your boxing gloves?

 

No. They work fine.

 

[Willard]

I don't think that the tramiels would've considered die-hard fighting game fans' opinion of the jaguar controller as substandard as a bad thing at all. to the contrary, I think they would've seen it as a great opportunity to sell a fighting pad/pro controller.

 

however, there are far worse controllers that have been used to play Super Street Fighter 2, such as the two button FM towns Controller/turbografx controller/3 button genesis controller.

 

i personally never had an issue with the responsiveness of the Jaguar controller though, nor the design.

[+CyranoJ]

 

 

I don't think that the tramiels would've considered die-hard fighting game fans' opinion of the jaguar controller as substandard as a bad thing at all. to the contrary, I think they would've seen it as a great opportunity to sell a fighting pad/pro controller.

 

No doubt about that, I just wish they had

 

 

 

however, there are far worse controllers that have been used to play Super Street Fighter 2, such as the two button FM towns Controller/turbografx controller/3 button genesis controller.

 

Quite correct, and I suppose, compared to controllers of the day, the JagPad does fair quite well. However, its not in the same league as what was just around the corner, time wise. Then again, a Jagpad was about $20, and a DualShock was about $80... so you'd expect a bit more quality there.

 

 

 

i personally never had an issue with the responsiveness of the Jaguar controller though, nor the design.

 

Its comfortable enough, for what it is, and it gets the job done - however I don't think its great at diagonals, and I cannot imagine pulling off combo moves on the thing. This may be passable due to frame rates, though. Maybe something clunking along like FFL is ok, but we had to seriously alter the collision detection in Degz because you just couldn't maneuver around the maze at the end accurately enough on the JagPad (60fps, precision required there) - I could get through that around 95% of the time on keyboard or 360 pad (VJ) while testing.

 

Maybe the Pro pad is better, but at $100 or so on ebay, I'm not going to bother finding out

[twoquickcapri]

Have you tried playing without wearing your boxing gloves?

???

[Umberto]

Liking Atari-platforms (or any other for that matter) does not mean praising everything about it.

After me being here in this forum for several years and with over 1600 posts I think I can honestly say I'm an Atari-fan. I wouldn't have wasted so much time here otherwise, don't you think?

noted

[Umberto]

Exactly.

 

I love the Jaguar, I love working with it, and I love playing games on it. However, the controllers suck arse, and the CD unit is made out of crap, cheap components that screw up regularly and fail if you look at them. There is no point putting on the rose tinted shades, some of these Jag parts are just cheap and crap, and many of the games are just terrible

 

Doesn't mean the system is horrible or someone hates it tho. Just being realistic.

 

The controllers are a matter of preference and that's subjective, I personally like them and find them comfortable and responsive. I do agree that they don't compare to some of the modern day controllers, but the jag controller was never given that chance to evolve as others did like the playstation. The laser transport in the jag was also in other devices of the time and has proven to be reliable over time. In fact the simplicity of the design of the Philips transport has aided in its longevity. I got my first jag cd drive at the end of 95 and still have it to this day and it still functions fine. I have owned 4 drives and only one has totally died and I still own the other 3. I guess that pretty good for 19 year old devices.

 

by the way, I just ordered a copy of Rocketeer, cant wait looks great

Edited March 31, 2014 by Umberto

[108 Stars]

however, there are far worse controllers that have been used to play Super Street Fighter 2, such as the two button FM towns Controller/turbografx controller/3 button genesis controller.

 

i personally never had an issue with the responsiveness of the Jaguar controller though, nor the design.

I have to disagree on the Genny and TG16 controllers. I would prefer both to the Jag pad for fighters, the main reason being that the Jaguar controller has such very shallow buttons and d-pad. They give very little way before registering a command, most pads have a longer ways until the buttons stop. It just feels pretty akward, and has been improved with the pro controller somewhat. That's a problem I have not only for fighting games though. Also, eventhough I have big hands I find it quite unergonomic. The sides are rounded, suggesting they are meant for you to wrap your fingers around. But then you can't do that fully, due to the "belly" of the pad, the back of the numpad being in the way of your fingertips. But granted, the only pad being a bit ergonomic before was the Genesis one, which tried to be a good fit for human hands in shape and size. NES, SMS, TG16 didn't even try, and the SNES pad concentrated on the button layout while remaining unergonomically flat. So I guess Atari at least tried.

Also there is no way to hold the pad comfortably while using the numpad intuitively. You really have to let go, look away from the screen at the numpad to use it, which interrupts the game flow. It would have been a better design to have the numbers accessible comfortably while you play, so you can find every key with just your thumb.

 

I do agree though that the Marty-pad is worse. It is so tiny and uncomfortable it hurts to use after a while.

[+Sauron]

Had the Jag been more successful, it would have been trivial for Atari to ship later units with the Pro Controller included, which IMO was one of the best controllers of it's time. The original Jag controller is far from great, but I've also played with far worse, and it didn't make any of the games unplayable. MK or the Street Fighter games would have been quite sweet with the Pro Controller.

[Willard]

I have to disagree on the Genny and TG16 controllers. I would prefer both to the Jag pad for fighters, the main reason being that the Jaguar controller has such very shallow buttons and d-pad. They give very little way before registering a command, most pads have a longer ways until the buttons stop. It just feels pretty akward, and has been improved with the pro controller somewhat. That's a problem I have not only for fighting games though. Also, eventhough I have big hands I find it quite unergonomic. The sides are rounded, suggesting they are meant for you to wrap your fingers around. But then you can't do that fully, due to the "belly" of the pad, the back of the numpad being in the way of your fingertips. But granted, the only pad being a bit ergonomic before was the Genesis one, which tried to be a good fit for human hands in shape and size. NES, SMS, TG16 didn't even try, and the SNES pad concentrated on the button layout while remaining unergonomically flat. So I guess Atari at least tried.

Also there is no way to hold the pad comfortably while using the numpad intuitively. You really have to let go, look away from the screen at the numpad to use it, which interrupts the game flow. It would have been a better design to have the numbers accessible comfortably while you play, so you can find every key with just your thumb.

 

I do agree though that the Marty-pad is worse. It is so tiny and uncomfortable it hurts to use after a while.

 

to each his own i suppose. i have never noticed how much way buttons have to give, because my hands generally arent involuntarily sliding all over the controller while im playing a game.

 

also you can grip the rounded sides, you just can't hold onto them like handles. i grip with my fingers at the end of the rounded edge so that theres a little room between my hand and the edge of the controller, but doesn't bother me if i grip with my hand around it and my fingers are extend accross the flat middle either.

 

im not sure to what extent the keypad was actually designed for games. i get the feeling it was meant for the voice modem mostly (I could be wrong), but also implemented for games when convenient so you don't have to go to the pause menu to change veiws or toggle through weapons which imo takes longer than glancing down. most games dont really even use it, or if they do, the keys that are used are the top ones so you don't have to fumble through the keypad. I rarely find myself looking down at it even for the few games that do make extensive use of it.

 

anyway, the jaguar controller isnt my absolute favorite (that goes to the pippin controller, too bad the system has so few actual games), but it beats alot of other controllers and its good enough that I wouldnt replace it with another design to play my jaguar. imo its part of the character of the system and i dont have any problems with its design.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Willard