Why are Xenophobe and Karateka considered bad?

[AlecRob]

Is it just because of the controls or are there other reasons as well?

[Tempest]

Xenophobe is alright, but Karateka is just plain bad all the way around. The controls are horrendous, the graphics are pretty crappy, and the whole game feels 'off'. It's also missing some stuff and there's really no reason for that.

[MAC-42]

I find Karateka playable...after a fashion, and with great focus. And even then it's not so easy to play. Poor controls. I'm masochistic enough to consider that added challenge, but most people don't have time for that kind of punishment.

[desiv]

I really enjoy Xenophobe..

Karateka for me, the whole problem is the controls.

Graphics don't bother me at all, but I'm used to it on an Apple IIc with green monitor.

 

But the control scheme just doesn't work at all for me to be able to enjoy the game...

 

It's been awhile, so I don't recall why (too laggy or ??), but I know I just couldn't enjoy the game..

 

desiv

[Tempest]

The eagle is pretty much impossible to destroy in the 7800 version, I think it's either a bug or the timing is way off (which wouldn't surprise me). Every time I tried to hit it my foot passed through it. People have completed the game though, so it must be possible.

[jaybird3rd]

I find that the animation is very choppy in 7800 Karateka. The original Apple ][ version may have had nasty artifacted Apple ][ graphics, but the animation was silky smooth by comparison. It's also much better in the Atari 800 version.

[Trip_Cannon]

Xenophobe is very playable. But just like a lot of 7800 game it just seemed to not be complete. It's missing characters, missing certain elements from the arcade, a lack of direction - no real ending or goal.

 

Karateka is just a half-assed game all around. Missing a lot of elements that made the Apple, C64, etc. conversions a classic. And when you look back, there really isn't a reason why these things are missing? The creators cut out all the things that made the game edearing. For me it was the cut scenes. Like when you're running toward the castle and it cuts to one of the enemies running toward you, building suspense. And the controls are hideous....

[Tempest]

I think the problem with a lot of 7800 games is that Atari wasn't paying developers very much to make games for the system. So you either had programmers making amazing games for little money as a labor of love for all things Atari or programmers doing half assed ports that just met the minimum requirements because Atari wasn't paying them for anything more. From what I've read Atari didn't really support or pay its 7800 developers well, so most of the larger development houses passed on doing 7800 games. That left many of the smaller development houses to do cruddy games either out of lack of support/money or lack of skill (lack of documentation probably didn't help matters). Karateka definitely falls into the latter category as three of the worst 7800 games (Choplifter, Hat Trick, and Karateka) were all done by the same outfit: iBid. GATO was done by iBid as well, but I don't feel it's fair to judge a incomplete prototype (although Karateka might as well be one).

 

I just know that someone from iBid is going to read this some time in the future and totally rip me a new one for saying this, so I apologize in advance. Just my personal views.

[akator]

In the 80s I loved Karateka on the Apple II. A lot of others did as well. We were memorized by the presentation. Karateka is proof that graphics whores are nothing new. I admit, I loved Karateka, and I was a graphics whore. The first step to recovery is admitting the problem, right?

 

But in retrospect, Karateka isn't a very good game... and never was. Even by 80s and Apple II standards, the controls were abysmal. What's difficult to fathom is how someone took unresponsive, crappy controls and made them worse as they did when porting Karateka to the 7800.

 

What's wrong with Karateka on the 7800? Try to play it. Especially using the 7800 joysticks which are at best mostly responsive on a good day when the planets are aligned. Experience the 7800 in all its glory.

 

And then there's Xenophobe. I loved the arcade game and haven't been impressed with any of the home versions, then or now. Why? Because it's another graphics whore game. Take out the pretty graphics and it is a redundant, mindless game with little redeeming about it. That's what happened, the pretty arcade graphics were reduced for home consoles and we got to see the game for exactly what it was (and is).

 

Imagine being locked in a room, with nothing but 7800 Xenophobe and 7800 Karateka and original 7800 joysticks to use. If that isn't a violation of the Geneva Convention for humane treatment, it is certainly close.

 

At least Xenophone is playable and recognizable as a video game with input and response. Karateka is like some kind of screwed up demo, only nowhere nearly as much fun.

Edited April 2, 2014 by akator

[treismac]

Lag kills Karateka. The controls are bad enough on their own, but with that one second or so delay between issuing a controller command and its execution on screen, the game play simply fails to flirt with anything remotely close to playable. Although I knew about the game as a kid, I never played it until a few years ago. I've found the Famicom version to be muuuuuch better than the 7800 version and the C64 version is slightly less worse than the 7800 version.

By the way, is there a definitive version of Karateka?

[Lynxpro]

Xenophobe's graphics colors are a tad bit dull and the sound is TIA bad. But I'm glad we got the conversion. It was one if the titles I hounded Atari customer service about on a weekly basis, either by phone or letter.

 

I also hounded them for Mania Challenge which I finally got a copy of the 7800 conversion a couple of months ago and I was shocked at how bad that port was [aka Mat Mania]. I'm sorry, guys...

[Gregory DG]

Hm, just posted the review of Karateka over at TAT:

 

http://www.ataritimes.com/index.php?ArticleIDX=624

[Rybags]

Karateka was laggy and cumbersome probably on all systems. But it was groundbreaking in it's own way in that it was a relatively sophisticated fighting game and had animation that was unmatched.

 

Once other fighers like Exploding Fist and International Karate came along though, they just served to show the deficiencies of Karateka. Almost as good animation, in fact better if you consider speed/response. Much easier controls, better fight dynamics.

Fair enough, they didn't scroll, the enemies all looked the same and there was no mission as such but the overall game experience was better.

 

I played Karateka for a while on the 800XL - was disgusted and practically never played it again once I had battled through the whole ordeal, then ran to the girl only to have the crap kicked out of me.

[segasaturn]

Karateka definitely falls into the latter category as three of the worst 7800 games (Choplifter, Hat Trick, and Karateka) were all done by the same outfit: iBid.

 

I mean, I like Choplifter/Hat trick. You have to remember, in a world dominated by Nintendo and with Atari basically telling the programmers F* you, I think most of the 7800 games are good in hind sight. Yes, like any other game it some could of been done better like Karateka. It feels "off/incomplete(no cutscenes,etc,.) though everyone has to remember, everyone has there own personal opinion. Some might like horrible games and some might hate good games....who knows? Maybe Ibid was on a time constant or honestly thought they did there best with karateka(memory resources,etc,.)?

[Tempest]

Actually the NES version of Karateka sucks too from what I've seen.

[8th lutz]

Xenophobe to me was playable and I did enjoy playing it on the 7800 today as I first bought it in 1989.

 

I did try the Apple II version of Karateka 4 or 5 years ago after first playing the 7800 version in 1989 or 1990.

 

I never liked the 7800 version of Karateka despite the fact the Atari 7800 was the system I first played Karateka on. Karateka didn't age well, but the Apple II version had better control than the Atari 7800 and it was complete game.

 

The controls and the graphics were bad for the 7800 version. After I played the Apple II version of Karateka, the 7800 version was even worse to me.

 

I did come with some conclusions why Karateka was so poor on the 7800. Atari Inc. had problems getting developers and ports for games and that meant Karateka had a possibility of being rushed. The other thing is programmers had problems with Atari Inc. for the Atari 7800 for asking for more ram put into game cartridge besides wanting bigger game cartridges.

Edited April 3, 2014 by 8th lutz

[AtariFriend]

Karateka on a whole is junk on any machine. Alien Racists (AKA Xenophobe) is quiet fun I find, the 7800 port might not be the best version of it but its still pretty fun. Moons better than Karateka.

[+MrFish]

Karateka was laggy and cumbersome probably on all systems. But it was groundbreaking in it's own way in that it was a relatively sophisticated fighting game and had animation that was unmatched.

 

Once other fighers like Exploding Fist and International Karate came along though, they just served to show the deficiencies of Karateka. Almost as good animation, in fact better if you consider speed/response. Much easier controls, better fight dynamics.

Fair enough, they didn't scroll, the enemies all looked the same and there was no mission as such but the overall game experience was better.

 

I played Karateka for a while on the 800XL - was disgusted and practically never played it again once I had battled through the whole ordeal, then ran to the girl only to have the crap kicked out of me.

 

If you were playing it on a PAL system I'm sure that added more lag to it. BTW, Karateka for the 8-Bits has alternate keyboard controls, which are more responsive than joystick control. I learned how to play it using the keyboard, and then later switched to joystick, since after I became accustomed to the game mechanics more, the added lag for joystick control didn't really matter much.

 

I find IK/WKC to be a completely different game. It's a point based match against a single opponent. Whereas Karateka is attacking all comers in a fortress where the princess is being held, whose basic gameplay would later morph into the more complex Prince of Persia. I agree, fighting-wise, IK/WKC is easier to play and has more moves in it's arsenal. I find them both equally as enjoyable though, but maybe Karateka for the 8-Bits isn't quite as recommended on PAL systems...

 

7800 Karateka is a piece of garbage. 7800 Xenophobe is a decent and interesting game, if a little monotonous.

Edited April 3, 2014 by MrFish

[+Mitch]

I just know that someone from iBid is going to read this some time in the future and totally rip me a new one for saying this, so I apologize in advance. Just my personal views.

 

I'm pretty sure one of the ibid guys has posted here in the past. Seems like he mentioned it was programmed in Forth.

 

Here we go: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/36432-i-officially-like-karateka/?p=581538

 

Mitch

[jaybird3rd]

I'm pretty sure one of the ibid guys has posted here in the past. Seems like he mentioned it was programmed in Forth.

 

Here we go: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/36432-i-officially-like-karateka/?p=581538

 

Mitch

Thanks for looking that up; I was about to go searching for it myself. I remembered the "blood, sweat, and tears" comment, and I'm sure it was true.

 

I get the impression that Atari had a very limited pool of developers and games to choose from, both because of Nintendo's exclusive licensing and because of the time, money, and control restrictions that they themselves imposed on these projects. In retrospect, it's remarkable that the 7800 library grew even to the extent that it did after GCC left the picture. GCC, having designed the 7800 for Atari, really seemed to know how to get the best out of it in its early years, but everyone else had to start more or less from scratch.

[BassGuitari]

I don't like Karateka on any platform, and the 7800 is easily the worst version. Slow to the point of being unplayable.

Xenophobe is good but gets tedious. It's one of my preferred 7800 games, though.

[Tempest]

 

I'm pretty sure one of the ibid guys has posted here in the past. Seems like he mentioned it was programmed in Forth.

 

Here we go: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/36432-i-officially-like-karateka/?p=581538

 

Mitch

Oh yeah, I remember that now.

[DracIsBack]

I have evolved my thinking from that crazy conspiracy theory I had then. Years of working in software has come to the more simple view that:

 

Tramiel was pretty cheap and a tough negotiator He would have negotiated a cross system license for a good rate.

 

With the XE line up, he got the existing source code that competent developers made for disk based systems.

 

However, with the 7800 line up, he had the license but no code. Hence came the Tramiel is cheap approach of hiring inexpensive developers, paying for limited production time, arguing over the cost of cartridges and ... well ... the results are there.

 

Doubt it was a deliberate attempt to cripple the 7800 like I thought then. Still think IBID inc did an awful job and that the developer did the whiny approach of complaining about his situation and not not wanting to take any accountability. People made better games for the 7800 under the same conditions that they did.

[FireTiger]

I like Xenophobe and Choplifter and I'm still waiting for somone to fix the 2nd player bug in Desert Falcon... so I"m just odd-

[YANDMAN]

I actually really like xenophobe, i think its one of those games that has become mass market black listed without good reason, It plays far better than the NES port and ialso really enjoy the 2600 port both are great, karateka isnt really that bad its just slow in execution of its animation and sprite movement which makes it really not that fun to play but its general execution isnt that bad again its mass bandwagon opinion, i always say play it for yourself and decide you also have to plump its next to similar games of the time ik+ etc the ninja.