Bill Loguidice Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Well, that's a tad confusing... either someone isn't telling me something or you're not talking about Imagine Publishing's Retro Gamer? Yes, it's confusing. The UK has Retro Gamer, the US has Retro, and another publication in the US is Retro Gamer Magazine. Only some of my books have been mentioned in Retro Gamer and I have yet to write for Retro, though I think my second-to-latest book, Vintage Game Consoles, has been advertised in their most recent issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) Sorry no, they might be knowledgeable but that doesn't magically give them the kind of resources required to keep an eye on everything being released even in just the USA. i'm still calling it as hyperbole because that figure can't be anywhere near proven. Call it what you will, written proof from way back is far more factual than something you cannot proof that it isn't true. EG, CGW, Compute, Byte, Antic, Softdisk (disk magazine), Ahoy!, the people writing for those magazines knew their stuff and the industry provided the materials for it. (I included Antic and Ahoy!, as the A8 and C64 people knew their stuff too, of course) Try reading some of those magazine and not just stuff like Crash, ZZAP or C&VG, they were just joke publications. Of course you are right, they can't keep an eye on everything released in the USA, so that number is obviously higher. Edited June 5, 2014 by high voltage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Call it what you will, written proof from way back is far more factual than something you cannot proof that it isn't true. EG, CGW, Byte, Antic, Softdisk (disk magazine), Ahoy!, the people writing for those magazines knew their stuff and the industry provided the materials for it. Try reading some of those magazine and not just stuff like Crash, ZZAP or C&VG, they were just joke publications. Today we have the benefit of all those resources and more, and can cross-check quite a bit because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Well, go for it, start cross-checking into Apple ][ games, someone should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Between Virtual Apple II and other online archival sources, there are already dedicated efforts underway to at least do some of what is being asked. I certainly don't have the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Call it what you will, written proof from way back is far more factual than something you cannot proof that it isn't true. It isn't written proof just because it appeared in a magazine you personally like and you can't prove it's true either so, as the person presenting that figure in discussion, it's down to you to back it up. There's ways you could try to do that like going through EG and building a list of the Apple II titles they covered to see how close that gets to 16,000 (don't forget to keep a second tally for the number of games since the claim is just "16,000 titles") then compare your list to the existing archives to see what percentage are missing. Try reading some of those magazine and not just stuff like Crash, ZZAP or C&VG, they were just joke publications. Just your opinion and irrelevant to the topic, stop being a troll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Yes, it's confusing. The UK has Retro Gamer, the US has Retro, and another publication in the US is Retro Gamer Magazine. That's what threw me (along with a lack of caffeine), i write the homebrew section in the UK's Retro Gamer and reviewed a couple of Brian's releases. That exposure is what got me interested in the Apple II as a coder to be honest, it looked fun. =-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Just your opinion and irrelevant to the topic, stop being a troll. Just like your hyperbole opinion actually, maybe you're the BIGGER TROLL, yeah thought so...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Actually the original OP is long gone....so there was no real interest. I'm going to play HYPERBOWL (good C64 game). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Just like your hyperbole opinion actually, maybe you're the BIGGER TROLL, yeah thought so...... How is it being a troll to want to see a realistic count of Apple II games exactly? How exactly is it an "obvious and intentional exaggeration" (one definition of hyperbole but the others don't fit either) to question what appears to be an overly large number? Asking for proof to back up something EG and you have claimed isn't a crime either. And i'm sorry to the other posters for this derailing... if anyone else feels strongly enough, i'll wander away from this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 (edited) Exactly, and until we have a realistic count (the EG count is only from 1977 - 1985, A2 had commercial software support until early 90s), the EG number is factual. You don't agree with them, fine, I rate Katz and Kunkel more knowledgable than you ever will be. As I said, the OP jumped ship anyway, why am I even talking to you. Edited June 6, 2014 by high voltage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 It's important that we separate out the number of games versus the total number of software titles. The latter will almost always be far greater for most computers. If you just count genuine commercial games, I think its fair to estimate that some long-lived platforms like the Apple II and C-64 would realistically reach into the couple of thousands over several decades of existence. Once you add in non-game software and especially public domain stuff, you'll easily exceed five digits. Again, though, the fine folks at EG had no special powers, so there's no reason to think that they'd have the best numbers, or access to numbers that no one else would, and, as was stated previously, they certainly weren't perfect and did make the occasional mistake or unfounded assumption. Regardless, their figure was an estimate, and it was an estimate of ALL software, not just games. Naturally, especially from the mid-70s to the early-80s, it was hard to distinguish between commercial software and what we'd refer to today as homebrew or non-commercial software, e.g., many simple BASIC programs were sold commercially. That will naturally inflate the numbers as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojay1997 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Exactly, and until we have a realistic count (the EG count is only from 1977 - 1985, A2 had commercial software support until early 90s), the EG number is factual. You don't agree with them, fine, I rate Katz and Kunkel more knowledgable than you ever will be. As I said, the OP jumped ship anyway, why am I even talking to you. Unless you know for sure how they arrived at that number, it is anything but "factual". For all we know, they were just repeating some early Apple PR hype as I am 100% sure Katz and Kunkel didn't ever sit down and count Apple or any other computer or console's releases. I have great respect for the EG team and that particular publication, but having re-read many of the issues in recent years, there was plenty they got wrong. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+nanochess Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 1,677 and counting. I've been adding games to my Apple II Games database for about a year: http://tanrunomad.com/vintage-computer-collection/apple-ii-games/ Eventually I'd love to add screen shots, graphics mode, RAM requirements, genre, rarity, you name it, but right now I've just been adding the basic info as I find them. The real challenge is finding the time to research these games, right now I just only update it once or twice a month maybe. Based on my research thus far, I do not think there were 10,000 published Apple II games, although I still have a ways to go in getting educational games and games from disk magazines. The Creative Computing and Compute! magazines also included Apple ][ programs. http://www.atarimagazines.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Yeah maybe I was a bit over reacting towards TMR, my apologies. But the Apple ][ needs to be defended, it was the creator of the home computer industry, it started small computing for businesses, it started computer gaming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 But the Apple ][ needs to be defended, it was the creator of the home computer industry, it started small computing for businesses, it started computer gaming. That's all an overstatement. It was certainly important in all those areas, but it was never the most popular at any of those things. The home computer industry was certainly kicked into high gear with the 1977 trinity of the Apple II, Commodore PET, and TRS-80, but the TRS-80 was far and away the best seller among the three into the very early 80s. Small business computing was dominated by CP/M until PC DOS machines started taking over. The Apple II was an important gaming computer and the most versatile among the trinity, but it certainly didn't start anything. The only area where the Apple II really established personal computing and dominated a significant amount of time was education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 (edited) I never said it was the most popular, but still, watch Triumph of the Nerds, very good video, you can watch it on YT nowadays. People bought A2's just to run VisiCalc for their business. Killer-app. Gaming companies were formed to develop software for A2, I reckon that's important enough. Edited June 6, 2014 by high voltage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 (edited) Yeah maybe I was a bit over reacting towards TMR, my apologies. But the Apple ][ needs to be defended, it was the creator of the home computer industry, it started small computing for businesses, it started computer gaming. And nobody attacked it in the first place, so your want to "defend" it was misplaced. Edited June 6, 2014 by TMR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I never said it was the most popular, but still, watch Triumph of the Nerds, very good video, you can watch it on YT nowadays. I realize you never said it was the most popular, and yes, I watched Triumph of the Nerds many times and contributed to the literature myself many times. It's an overstatement it created or started just about anything, period. It's easy to simplify history down to the winners and the neat stories, but that's not how it actually went down. There's more to it than that. We certainly can't underestimate the Apple II's importance - that I agree with 100% - but the rest of it is hyperbole. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X900BattleGrape Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) I never said it was the most popular, but still, watch Triumph of the Nerds, very good video, you can watch it on YT nowadays. People bought A2's just to run VisiCalc for their business. Killer-app. Gaming companies were formed to develop software for A2, I reckon that's important enough. I've also seen Triumph of the Nerds, and it glosses over many things, attributes many things to Apple and Microsoft that shouldn't be, or at least they merely shared in bringing these things about along with other companies, etc. If your only source of information is that documentary I highly recommend digging a bit more. One of the very first video game companies, and a very successful one, for example was Adventure International. And that companies first products were for the TRS-80; not the Apple II. Stargunner, you're about spot on with your post except that in Europe it went from CP/M for business to the PET and then to DOS. The PET was huge in Europe for business, though failed spectacularly in the U.S. Edited June 7, 2014 by X900BattleGrape 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkO Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 The book, Commodore:A company on the edge, has a very good description of the PET in Europe, and why it was more successful than in the USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Shame the A2 wasn't popular overseas, but I am just re-reading all my C&VGs (I have approx. 251 issues, some issues missing in between), in late 1983 the Apple 2 was GBP 970,00 in UK (I think I've read it in issue 25 or 28). At that time the C64 was reduced to GBP 245,00 or so and the A800 to 299. Apple didn't stand a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) I realize you never said it was the most popular, and yes, I watched Triumph of the Nerds many times and contributed to the literature myself many times. It's an overstatement it created or started just about anything, period. It's easy to simplify history down to the winners and the neat stories, but that's not how it actually went down. There's more to it than that. We certainly can't underestimate the Apple II's importance - that I agree with 100% - but the rest of it is hyperbole. Yes, I knew you're gonna dis Triumph as well, it was to be expected. I reckon all you guys saying is HYPERBOLE (I'm gonna adopt that term too from now on, you're all talking HYPERBOLE, it's gonna be my new sig) Edited June 7, 2014 by high voltage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Yes, it sounds about correct that you'd get 3-4 Commodore 64's for the cost of one Apple ][, not counting peripherals. When it came to clones, you still could get 2-3 authentic C64's for the cost of one Apple ][ clone, but at least the Apple clones tended to come with some peripherals included. No wonder it never struck off as a gaming computer for the home, even the rather overpriced BBC Micro seemed cheaper than an Apple around those days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Yes, I knew you're gonna dis Triumph as well, it was to be expected. I reckon all you guys saying is HYPERBOLE (I'm gonna adopt that term too from now on, you're all talking HYPERBOLE, it's gonna be my new sig) You're being ridiculous. I was always a fan of the work, but there's a difference between accepting everything as gospel and understanding when creative liberties were taken for the sake of the story. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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