Thomas Jentzsch Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Missed his thread until now. Personally I agree with the OP, I go my fingers burned when trying to support criticism. Even Nathan got flag when giving Solar Plexus a not-so-good rating, even though he is a very respected member and his reviews are usually spot on. Just look into the store reviews. Giving just 4 stars is almost the strongest negative rating people are giving. While this is sure meant very nice and encouraging for non-so-talented homebrewers, it is pretty frustrating for people who put a lot of TLC into their games which then get about the same feedback as pretty bad rushed homebrews. In the end, this completely devaluates any positive feedback. Instead you carefully have to read between the lines to make out what people may really think about your work. And you almost never get any negative, constructive and therefore very helpful feedback. IMO, as long as people have good arguments to criticize a homebrew, they should be allowed to do so without risking alienating themselves. As for the collectors who buy almost everything, IMO they are not good for the homebrew quality. If you can package and sell a brick to those people, some (if not many) homebrewers will evade the tedious process of polishing their games. They will just put them on the market, get good sales and positive reaction and carry on making more games with the same lower-than-possible quality, rushed games. AtariAge is a very, very positive website, but sometimes that sucks. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 For me there's a big dividing line between a finished product like in the thread you've linked to, and WIPs that OP spoke to. When talking about WIP titles, I'd hope that people don't just come out and call them crap. That isn't constructive. It's a "stay away, this is irredeemable toxic-waste" warning. Its someone's personal guarantee that nobody will enjoy playing it. That could well be an appropriate way to describe a finished product, if it truly is unplayable, but it's an unnecessarily cruel way of describing someone's WIP. It leaves the developer with a heaping of shame, and no helpful suggestion of how his work could be "less crappy". Personally, even with a finished game I'd rather describe specifics of how someones finished game is broken or unfun, rather than just saying its crappy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Just calling something crap without giving a reason is IMO never justified. But constructive criticism is IMO always justified. I suppose we are all grown ups and we by now should have learned to handle negative feedback and learn from it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Yep, completely agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tron Unit Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I've found homebrewers generally receptive of suggested feedback while in development. That said, there are some games that I think could either be greatly improved upon or the direction of development has moved away from where I would like to have seen it gone based upon others' feedback. Call it a case of "Too many cooks in the kitchen." When this happens, I pretty much stop offering input and support for it. In the end, it's your choice whether to buy it or not, however, it does get frustrating especially when a game you were initially excited to see getting made takes a turn for the worse and becomes something else other than what you had hoped it would have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+atari2600land Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 This thread is about me, isn't it? The reason I produce crap is because nobody will offer suggestions of how to make my game better. I don't want to produce crap, but I have to because apparently nobody likes my games. I have too much time on my hands, and if I'm producing crap, then I guess my time will be better spent elsewhere... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelmischief Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 This is a an easy question to answer, I think. In the public forums, thank the developer for their continued support of the platform and encourage their continued efforts. In private, ask the developer if he/she is interested in hearing some constructive criticisms of his/her products and recommendations on how those products may be improved. If the developer turns down your kind offer of critique and recommendation, so be it. If the developer thanks you and requests more information, provide it. Knowing when and how to offer criticism is the difference between being a critic and being a leader. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tron Unit Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) When you put your development out there in the open on a public forum, you open yourself up to both positive and negative feedback. Constructive feedback is generally more well received than Destructive or harshly negative feedback but it's up to the developer how they want to take that feedback and apply it to their work, and not just Homebrewers we're talking about here, the same goes for writers, artists, musicians, et al who post their work openly on an internet forum. No one is immune to criticism. It's how you want to take that criticism and use it to make suggested improvements to your work, or to defend it. However, there's no reason for hostility from either those that give feedback and those that are receiving it. Creating an open-forum environment where ideas are welcomed and constructive criticisms are presented in a thoughtful and insightful manner should always be appreciated. Edited March 9, 2015 by Tron Unit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 This thread is about me, isn't it? Everything is about you at AtariAge. We secretly PM each other and say nasty things about you all day long. The reason I produce crap is because nobody will offer suggestions of how to make my game better. You don't really need anyone to tell you anything. Just look at the best polished Atari 2600 games that Imagic and Activision made. Compare them to games such as Airlock. youtube.com/watch?v=WKzxZ_QtAF8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKzxZ_QtAF8 The little guy in Airlock doesn't even look like a guy. He looks more like a gummy bear that somebody has been gnawing on. His 'legs' don't even move. The gnawed on gummy bear just seems to levitate. Is he E.T.'s long lost edible cousin? If you have a lot of time on your hands, you could spend a little time studying some of the best polished classic games. Once you have spent some time truly studying polished classic games, you can do your best to emulate their standards. Striving for excellence is better than settling for barely good enough, even if we suck. Speaking of sucking, I suck at programming and animation and whatever else you can think of, but I'm not going to stop trying to get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess Ragan Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I already had my say on this subject months ago, but to address Jentzsch's comment, I got a little defensive about Solar Plexus back when it was first designed. It's been a long time since then and I don't take the negative reviews as personally. I recognize there's a lot about SP that could be better, but that's easier to say in hindsight. Back in 2005, it was much closer to my heart. BTW, for the few who remember it, I don't know what's going to happen with Bear Arms. I stopped working on it due to my lack of interest, but it could potentially be revived if the planets align. And oh yeah, if I can recover the data from my crashed hard drive. =P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I already had my say on this subject months ago, but to address Jentzsch's comment, I got a little defensive about Solar Plexus back when it was first designed. It's been a long time since then and I don't take the negative reviews as personally. I recognize there's a lot about SP that could be better, but that's easier to say in hindsight. Back in 2005, it was much closer to my heart. No problem with that. When it comes to defending one's own games, one cannot be expected to be 100% objective. I am 100% sure that I think about my own creations much better than the average critic would. But IIRC it wasn't only you, but also other people who were blaming Nathan for daring to give the game an average rating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karokoenig Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I suppose we are all grown ups and we by now should have learned to handle negative feedback and learn from it. Love your optimism. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg2600 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I've had little to really complain about with homebrew I see here on AA. I understand the limitations programmers are under with these ancient consoles. Yet they continue to amaze on what can be accomplished on them! NES/SNES/GEN homebrew is another story. I've seen so many games that just simply aren't ready for primetime. Even the worst LJN games are 1,000 times more polished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) This thread is about me, isn't it? The reason I produce crap is because nobody will offer suggestions of how to make my game better. I don't know who the op is referring to, there are quite some homebrews released via other channels outside AA where I have to wonder who except for a collector wants to buy those. If you don't get feedback (even though you personally think your games are "crap"), than that may be because people do not dare to criticize, because they are afraid of getting attacked for trying to help you by being honest. And then you never get a chance to improve (vicious circle). So you should explicitly ask for any feedback, even though it may be negative (but constructive of course). And defend everyone who gives you constructive (positive or negative) feedback. Edited March 9, 2015 by Thomas Jentzsch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhomaios Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Why do collectors want to buy crappy homebrews anyway? That doesn't seem at all obvious to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I am no collector but from what I understand the motivation could be To have the collection as complete as possible, even for the most obscure game. The package looks nice in the shelf Supporting the homebrew scene in general (though this is debatable like I explained above and in that other thread) ... And any combination of all those. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Atari_Warlord Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I blame the "everyone gets a trophy" generation. I've noticed it at work in the last couple years, where younger folks wilt under any constructive feedback and think everyone is out to get them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg2600 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I am no collector but from what I understand the motivation could be To have the collection as complete as possible, even for the most obscure game. The package looks nice in the shelf Supporting the homebrew scene in general (though this is debatable like I explained above and in that other thread) ... And any combination of all those. It's the pack rat mentality we all have first and foremost. I think having the CIB is important, although many are simply big fans of a system and want any possible game they can on it. Although I support in spirit the homebrew scene, I don't have the room for all these boxed releases. I've said many times I would (and have) support paid ROM's instead. For the most part, most of them grow old in a short time, and don't warrant a $40-$60 purchase when I could spend that on retail games from newer generations. I blame the "everyone gets a trophy" generation. I've noticed it at work in the last couple years, where younger folks wilt under any constructive feedback and think everyone is out to get them. Well, most of the Atari/Coleco/INTV home brewers are middle-aged with tough skin I believe. Ha ha ha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Well, most of the Atari/Coleco/INTV home brewers are middle-aged with tough skin I believe. Ha ha ha! Are you saying that they are old? How dare you?!!!! That's it! They quit! They are taking their balls and going home! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg2600 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Are you saying that they are old? How dare you?!!!! That's it! They quit! They are taking their balls and going home! "Old age and treachery" over "young and exuberant" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhomaios Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I blame the "everyone gets a trophy" generation. I've noticed it at work in the last couple years, where younger folks wilt under any constructive feedback and think everyone is out to get them. You should see how my students react in the classroom when I tell them that they're wrong. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 You should see how my students react in the classroom when I tell them that they're wrong. I get the same reaction from my students! The indiscriminate "everyone gets a gold star" approach to teaching has created a generation of approval addicts. The prevalence of "like" buttons and follower counts on social media, where students seem to spend 90% of their waking hours, doesn't help much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 The world needs a dislike button! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+thegoldenband Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I am no collector but from what I understand the motivation could be To have the collection as complete as possible, even for the most obscure game. The package looks nice in the shelf Supporting the homebrew scene in general (though this is debatable like I explained above and in that other thread) ... And any combination of all those. I'd also add another option, which relates to #1: hoping to resell the item for a far higher price when it becomes part of that system's "canon" of games, thereby taking advantage of the completists in group #1. (Gotta catch 'em all!) That's one of the things that troubles me about the turn the homebrew scene has taken over the past 5-7 years. It sometimes seems like the point is the collectibility, rather than the quality of the game. If you know there's a group of people who will buy anything that comes out for a system, why bother to make it as good as it can be? You can always release a new version, after all, with bugfixes and variant packaging and a small change to the title screen, and make some more money. Also, "fear of missing out" is in there somewhere. Gaming sites are full of lamentations that "if only I'd bought it when it was going for $5, alas!". And after all prices keep going up and up -- gotta make sure that bubble gets as big as possible! -- though there's some sign that's leveling off with the Atari (maybe permanently?). Certain homebrews on certain consoles have inflated far more than others, for whatever reason. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 You should see how my students react in the classroom when I tell them that they're wrong. That will be seen as child abuse in the future. Students are never wrong. They're just precision impaired. Who is to say what is right or wrong? If their answers are wrong, what else could be wrong; their skin color? It's a slippery slope! Related book: Punished by Rewards: The Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive Plans, A's, Praise, and Other Bribes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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