Manufacturing a New Run of Pro-Controllers

[Rick Dangerous]

Everyone play nice please. I don't want to get this thread locked before I even hear back from Steve!

 

On a side note I am reading what everyone has to say and keeping it well under consideration. The issue it's a sort of linear path to potentially produce these, and so the gate that I'm stuck at right now is acquiring the molds. Costs/possibilities of future parts of the process are purely speculative at this point.

 

What I'm looking for next is a domestic (USA) electronics manufacturer who could take the pro controller mold and create a finished project. I know best sells replacement cables for the pro controller, so someone out there is making that component (or made a big run of them, or maybe it's leftover stock I don't know.) If anyone works somewhere that subcontracts with a company that produces a variety of electronics for various other companies, please let me know. I'd like to start making some calls and emails and saying "if I had the mold" what would it cost to do a run of X jaguar pro controllers....

Edited July 18, 2014 by travistouchdown

[Bill Loguidice]

Why not considering modifying existing standard Jag pad?

Drilling 5 holes in the shell to place the extra buttons doesn't sound that hard to do and extra buttons would'nt be tricky and expensive to find.

They are cheap and still available in quantity so it answer the problem or molding Jag Pro shells.

Maybe you don't even need to replace the complete PCB inside it and just re-use it to plug the extra buttons with minors modifications or by adding a small extra PCB?

 

That's not a bad idea, but still represents a supply issue as new three button controllers are not being made, and I'm not personally aware of warehouses full of the things.

 

Again, I hate to throw cold water on this, but I just don't see how this is in any way practical, from a monetary or build standpoint. I just don't see how we're not better off with a simpler approach, i.e., creating an adapter that works with existing controllers in relatively unlimited supply, like the Sega Genesis six button stuff, or even the Dualshock. Adapters are made for the latter for various systems all of the time.

 

Just putting it out there, but assuming that the molds are acquired (and there's no supply of three button controllers to retrofit) and the internals of the six button replicated, i.e., a circuit board made, a proper cable fabricated, and decent d-pad and various buttons installed, I can't fathom what the final price point per controller will be. $200? More? Less? Would you be able to sell even 100 at "just" $100? I just don't know. None of this seems to add up. I'm not sure getting the molds is the starting point for any of this.

[Felyx]

Simply if you manage to adapt a Genesis pad to the Jag you will get 6 buttons (but no triggers for this one) but you will lost the keypad.

If it is possible to add the missing buttons on a standard pad, you get all 6 buttons + 2 triggers + keypad.

[Bill Loguidice]

Simply if you manage to adapt a Genesis pad to the Jag you will get 6 buttons (but no triggers for this one) but you will lost the keypad.

If it is possible to add the missing buttons on a standard pad, you get all 6 buttons + 2 triggers + keypad.

 

Good point about the lack of extra buttons on the Genesis pad, though in practice few games really use all the features of the three button controller, let alone the six button, so proper mapping could get you most of the way there if you didn't want to go with a Y cable for a keypad. With that said, I'm still thinking the common practice of adapting for using Dualshock and opening up the world of PS controllers makes a lot more practical sense, particularly if you can map the buttons. After all, that's what Atari themselves did with their six button pad, remapping buttons on the keypad to the additional buttons on the six button pad.

 

Despite my skepticism and seeming negativity, however, I'd just like to state for the record that as a basic concept (and not considering practicality), I like the idea of recreating the Jaguar six button pad, since to my mind that was easily Atari's best controller design since the original Atari 2600 joystick, and it would be awesome to have a fresh supply.

[Rick Dangerous]

Bill I definitely appreciate that there is a 90% chance (if not higher) that it will be impractical or too costly to manufacture more Jag pro controllers.

 

But I'd like to explore it fully at least so if someone comes up with the bright idea in five years someone can post a link to this thread and say "some idiot attempted this already!" lol...

 

For now, rather than speculation, what would be helpful is if people could help me research a few companies that domestically manufacture electronics for customers, so that I can start putting some feelers out.

[108 Stars]

One more thing to consider:

Those molds are likely massive chunks of steel. So be aware that you will have to store them somewhere. I am not married, but I imagine wives not exactly being thrilled about big, solid metal bars lying around in the living room. Also a concern for shipping them around.

[kevincal]

It would be best to make an adapter to use a Saturn 6 button controller. That's basically the best 6 button controller on earth. I think the point of the Jag 6 button was that you didn't have to mess with the keypad buttons anymore.... So not really a loss not being able to use keypad buttons with Saturn 6-button.

 

However, I know I already said no cheap Chinese junk, but in reality I bet you could find a Chinese manufacturer that sells cheap imitation retro controllers on ebay (knockoffs that look like the real thing genesis snes etc) and convince them to make jaguar 6 button controllers that look just like the Atari ones. All you would have to do is send them one original Atari Jaguar 6 button controller and they can reverse engineer it. That's probably the best way to go because that Chinese stuff sells for super cheap on ebay. I guess its kinda messed up the workers over there make such little money though. I dunno.............

[Zerosquare]

Regarding the Atari thing: they won't bother you if the controllers and packaging do not mention their name and logo. Otherwise, expect to hear from their lawyers ; it has happened before. The best way would probably be to get the molds modified to remove the name and logo - that can be done without needing to manufacture new molds.

 

About the manufacturing: why domestic? If you want to keep the costs low, China is where it's at ; and if you don't want to deal with a Chinese factory yourself, there are companies whose whole job is to do it for you. (There isn't anything wrong with wanting to support your domestic industry, in fact that's very nice, but you need to know that the price is difference can be substantial -- not to mention, some domestic companies actually outsource their work anyways)

[Rick Dangerous]

if you don't want to deal with a Chinese factory yourself, there are companies whose whole job is to do it for you. (There isn't anything wrong with wanting to support your domestic industry, in fact that's very nice, but you need to know that the price is difference can be substantial

 

It's not always as expensive to manufacture in the US as some people think, especially if the molds are needed (was my thinking.) China will build to any quality spec you need, if you are willing to pay for it. Lots of high end stuff is made in China and has been for years so I'm not worried about the "cheap Chinese junk" factor.

 

Regarding what you said in bold: Someone please name one of those companies if they know of any, and I will get to work.

Edited July 18, 2014 by travistouchdown

[Cobra Kai]

3d printer 3d printer 3d printer.

[Lynxpro]

So, your only means of response is to continually insult me? Yeah…now I get it. It sure sounds like you have a clue what you are talking about!

 

I am curious…what project(s) have you actually produced (partially or in full) for the Atari community? Anything? Hardware, software packaging, printed matter, soft goods, etc? Anything? Or are you just having some fun, at the expense of someone who actually has contributed to a project before with something more than lofty, pie-in-the sky advice? Keep up the good work though. You might just save the entire Jaguar universe with all of your amazing plans to partner up with Atari for FREE on this…that sounds reasonable. So, who is the person working at Kinkos again??

 

In before the Shatner.

 

I only "insulted" you after you attacked me for recommending such a proposed project follow due diligence and actually contact Atari about it.

 

And yes, I am working on a project but I don't need to brag about it or my involvement to offer my opinion here.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: My bad. The lady who famously wore a Starfleet uniform as a jurist on the Whitewater trial was a Sir Speedy Printing employee, not Kinkos. Her name is Barbara Adams. http://wonderkammer.wordpress.com/2012/06/09/barbara-adams-14/

Edited July 18, 2014 by Lynxpro

[Lynxpro]

 

Good point about the lack of extra buttons on the Genesis pad, though in practice few games really use all the features of the three button controller, let alone the six button, so proper mapping could get you most of the way there if you didn't want to go with a Y cable for a keypad. With that said, I'm still thinking the common practice of adapting for using Dualshock and opening up the world of PS controllers makes a lot more practical sense, particularly if you can map the buttons. After all, that's what Atari themselves did with their six button pad, remapping buttons on the keypad to the additional buttons on the six button pad.

 

Despite my skepticism and seeming negativity, however, I'd just like to state for the record that as a basic concept (and not considering practicality), I like the idea of recreating the Jaguar six button pad, since to my mind that was easily Atari's best controller design since the original Atari 2600 joystick, and it would be awesome to have a fresh supply.

 

Not to mention it would open up the existing supply for the regular Jaguar controllers to be used with other Atari consoles such as Kevtris' Jaguar controller mod as a replacement for the 5200 controller. Or, based upon Bob's work [modding a Wii fighting joystick to work with a VGA plug], using it with the 7800.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Lynxpro

[bennybingo]

 

I only "insulted" you after you attacked me for recommending such a proposed project follow due diligence and actually contact Atari about it.

Run-on sentences make my head hurt.

 

I like turtles.

[Clint Thompson]

Well, if you need a place to store the molds, I'll use them as coffee and end tables until needed

[phoenixdownita]

That's not a bad idea, but still represents a supply issue as new three button controllers are not being made, and I'm not personally aware of warehouses full of the things.

 

Again, I hate to throw cold water on this, but I just don't see how this is in any way practical, from a monetary or build standpoint. I just don't see how we're not better off with a simpler approach, i.e., creating an adapter that works with existing controllers in relatively unlimited supply, like the Sega Genesis six button stuff, or even the Dualshock. Adapters are made for the latter for various systems all of the time.

 

Just putting it out there, but assuming that the molds are acquired (and there's no supply of three button controllers to retrofit) and the internals of the six button replicated, i.e., a circuit board made, a proper cable fabricated, and decent d-pad and various buttons installed, I can't fathom what the final price point per controller will be. $200? More? Less? Would you be able to sell even 100 at "just" $100? I just don't know. None of this seems to add up. I'm not sure getting the molds is the starting point for any of this.

 

I tried something (shameless plug, check the pics at the end, not exactly pretty):

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/226911-how-hard-is-it-to-mod-a-jag-ctrl-into-a-pro/

 

I wanted to avoid to drill any holes, I have not yet tackled the shoulder buttons (those do need holes) just received the needed longer tact switches (13mm and 17mm, haven't settle on any yet).

 

The main issue adapting a 3 buttons to a 6 buttons is need to extensively rewire things internally (10 wires are needed for the extra 5 buttons {may be less if you find which one shares the other pole, I didn't bother}), and the fact that the space on top of the 3 existing buttons is not exactly flat so drilling there is not obvious.

[in my case I also needed 6 wires as I displaced the 3 std buttons from their location]

 

Maybe a 3D print of a modified top of the std controller with 6 proper holes could be already enough as there's space for an extra PCB on top of the existing one where to host the 6 new buttons with all the proper wiring.

Edited July 19, 2014 by phoenixdownita

[JagChris]

Just make the goddamn controller with the keypad in it instead of leaving it out. Just reimagine a Saturn pad with a keypad. To leave out the keypad is to severely limit the controllers usefulness. The pro controller did not eliminate the keypad.

 

It would be best to make an adapter to use a Saturn 6 button controller. That's basically the best 6 button controller on earth. I think the point of the Jag 6 button was that you didn't have to mess with the keypad buttons anymore.... So not really a loss not being able to use keypad buttons with Saturn 6-button.

[Chilly Willy]

How about a plastic case that took the guts of a Saturn controller and a keypad, along with a PIC chip to convert both to the ProPad interface. If you REALLY wanted a crazy idea, there were 6-button Dreamcast pads made (I have eight of them made by MadCatz) - so put a keypad in the area you would put the VMU, and add a PIC to make it all ProPad compatible.

[108 Stars]

The Dreamcast controllers would in general be perfect for modding. They are huge like Jag controllers, or almost so, but they actually have the ergonomic improvement of allowing your fingers to wrap around the sides fully.

 

The big "belly" where VMS and rumble packs go would offer perfect room for a keypad.

[JagChris]

It is true we don't have to have perfect replicas of pro controllers. The one thing the Jaguar does not have at all was any real third party controllers made for it.

[kevincal]

A cheap and effective 3rd party 6 button jag pad would be a real win. Pro controller prices are a real fail these days. And to be honest, I have owned a bunch of Jag 6 buttons over the years, and I prefer the d pad and face buttons on the regular jag pad compared to the Pro.......

[JagChris]

A cheap and effective 3rd party 6 button jag pad would be a real win. Pro controller prices are a real fail these days. And to be honest, I have owned a bunch of Jag 6 buttons over the years, and I prefer the d pad and face buttons on the regular jag pad compared to the Pro.......

 

Ah what do you know. You go belly up the first time you run into trouble on AvP

[danny_galaga]

Mechanical clicky buttons? Screw that. Besides having a funky feel, they're actually pretty problematic as there is a finite number off times they can be used and then there is the fact that presses don't always register 100%. Don't like them at all for gaming.

 

Re: getting permission to reproduce the molds, could always reverse engineer an original and make a minor cosmetic change somewhere to get around that. Especially easy for the Chinese!

 

And oh yeah... Falcon and STE's! How could I forget them?

 

You won't need anyones permission to reverse engineer them...

[danny_galaga]

I always thought the Pro Controller was way overrated and not realty necessary, especially now that the price is ridiculous. But it would be cool if there were an aftermarket 6 button Jaguar pad sold for MUCH cheaper. Like $30 or $40 at the most and that's only if it's built and works well.......... No cheap Chinese junk please.

 

Where is your PC made? Don't get hung up on things being made in China, they have really high tech factories if that's what you want. I've had PCB's made in China and the service and quality is exceptional.

[kevincal]

 

Ah what do you know. You go belly up the first time you run into trouble on AvP

 

Im actually really good at AvP but actually finding all the keycards and weapons as the Marine is a freaking daunting task that takes untold amounts of hours of mindlessly walking hallways and airducts that I just cant put up with. I get bored. And lost.

 

 

Where is your PC made? Don't get hung up on things being made in China, they have really high tech factories if that's what you want. I've had PCB's made in China and the service and quality is exceptional.

 

What I meant was, any time I have bought a cheap video game product from china it has been complete junk. Aftermarket AC adapters, controllers, cables cords etc / w/e either the stuff didn't work at all or it functioned horribly. Or how about the aftermarket car mirror I bought that was supposed to be a replacement for the original, only the holes didn't line up AT ALL and the thing was a total piece of junk. china quality standards are super low because they are all about beating the world with low prices and the only way to do that is slave labor and those slaves don't give a damn about making a quality product, infact they are encouraged to do everything FAST to hell with if the product isn't perfect... Sure there is some good products from china but most of it is walmart grade stuff. Stuff that doesn't even work when brand new or breaks not long after use or is just all around janky.

[Lynxpro]

A cheap and effective 3rd party 6 button jag pad would be a real win. Pro controller prices are a real fail these days. And to be honest, I have owned a bunch of Jag 6 buttons over the years, and I prefer the d pad and face buttons on the regular jag pad compared to the Pro.......

 

You know what Ive pondered lately? Installing the 7800 JoyPad's DPad & Stick in the place of the Lynx 1's DPad.