True speed of a game

[RodCastler]

Many of you know that most games run at different speeds depending on if they are run on a PAL or NTSC system.

 

But what is the TRUE intended speed of the developer?

 

Black Lamp is a good example of a notorious difference in music speed, and color palette.

The game was originally published by Firebird, a British company, which leads me to assume that it was originally intended for PAL, which would also mean that if I run it on an NTSC machine it runs faster than originally intended.

 

For other games of course, the opposite happens: If developed for the NTSC market, they would run slower than originally intended if played on a PAL machine.

 

 

The question is, for any given game: How do I find the true/original intended speed -or in other words- how do I know if it was originally developed for the PAL system or NTSC system?

[+MrFish]

Atarimania tells you a lot.

[Sikor]

Some games has different version - for example Word Karate Championship vs International Karate, Yoomp. Some games test computersystems. Other - You must find info, that it is European games (PAL or SECAM, if games come from France) or America game.(NTSC).

[RodCastler]

Atarimania tells you a lot.

It does. But if you are referring to the links to the F.A.Q. they provide or someone posting the same question I did on the forums, well none of the two have a straight answer regarding the intended speed.

You could post the link to what you have in mind maybe.

[+MrFish]

It does. But if you are referring to the links to the F.A.Q. they provide or someone posting the same question I did on the forums, well none of the two have a straight answer regarding the intended speed.

You could post the link to what you have in mind maybe.

 

What I mean is you can look up the game and see where it was released first.

[RodCastler]

What I mean is you can look up the game and see where it was released first.

I see. That can be confusing in some cases though. Conan for example, appears listed both in the UK and the US, and to your point one would need to check where is was FIRST released.

 

So, what you are saying then is that the ONLY way to verify the true speed is by tracking down the origin of the first publisher? Are you aware of any site that does a PAL/NTSC categorizations of these games?

 

 

It seems to me that the ASMA archive has an internal categorization of some sort as the audio files seem to play at the "correct" speed.

[+MrFish]

I see. That can be confusing in some cases though. Conan for example, appears listed both in the UK and the US, and to your point one would need to check where is was FIRST released.

 

The dates are right there; seems pretty straight forward to me.

[Kr0tki]

Black Lamp is a good example of a notorious difference in music speed, and color palette.

The game was originally published by Firebird, a British company, which leads me to assume that it was originally intended for PAL, which would also mean that if I run it on an NTSC machine it runs faster than originally intended.

Black Lamp is not an issue at all. The Atari version was published only by Atari UK and developed by British developers.

 

So, what you are saying then is that the ONLY way to verify the true speed is by tracking down the origin of the first publisher? Are you aware of any site that does a PAL/NTSC categorizations of these games?

No such database exists now.

 

The dates are right there; seems pretty straight forward to me.

The dates won't help you in many cases, for example in the case of International Karate/World Karate Championship, both were released the same year.

 

In such cases you can determine the origin in a few other ways:

a) check name of the company on the game's title screen. When the games were re-released overseas, in most cases the redistributors didn't change company names that were already on the title screens, so, using the example of Conan, when you take the US GOLD (PAL) release and find the name Datasoft on the title screen, you can assume that Datasoft was the original publisher.

b) check nationality of the development companies, or the developers themselves.. Should be googleable in most cases. For example, IK/WKC was developed by Archer Maclean, a Briton, so PAL. Another example, Beer Belly Burt's Brew Biz by Americana. The game was published in the UK only and has the Americana copyright on the title screen, but the developer was American, so I would qualify it as an NTSC game.

c) know a bit about various publishers and general history. For example, modus operandi of companies such as US Gold, Americana, Micro Discount etc. etc. was redistribution of games initially published by other companies, so in most cases releases by these companies are not the original ones.

d) Ask here! :-)

Edited August 7, 2014 by Kr0tki

[Kr0tki]

Doublepost!

Edited August 7, 2014 by Kr0tki

[Rybags]

Place of origin usually determines the speed so often it's "wrong" on the other system.

 

IK / WK Championship actually allows the user to select among 5 different speeds IIRC. So obviously there was some consideration during development, unsure if the game actually adjusts automatically between Pal/NTSC.

 

Rescue on Fractalus (and probably Eidolon and Koronis Rift) appears to use the modern day model of "realtime" where it just keeps rendering at whatever speed it can manage but does the actual movement based on the framerate. I've not really played it in NTSC so no idea if it adjusts the actual movement velocity dependant on system.

[Kr0tki]

IK / WK Championship actually allows the user to select among 5 different speeds IIRC. So obviously there was some consideration during development, unsure if the game actually adjusts automatically between Pal/NTSC.

The speed selection in IK/WKC (4 speeds) actually has nothing to do with the region issue. The game itself was adjusted between the PAL and NTSC releases, so WKC on an NTSC machine plays the same speed as IK on PAL (no auto-detection involved).

 

So, in case of IK/WKC, the question "what is the TRUE intended speed of the developer?" should seem redundant, right? After all the game was prepared to run at the same speeds on both regions.

 

But regional differences are not limited to speed only, they also include differences in colours and screen proportions. Since the NTSC WKC doesn't adjust colours and proportions, it looks different than the PAL IK. So, even though the speeds were adjusted, I would still prefer to play IK on PAL instead of WKC on NTSC, because IK would look like the devloper intended (him being British), and WKC would not.

 

I've not really played it in NTSC so no idea if it adjusts the actual movement velocity dependant on system.

There doesn't seem to be any adjustment in game code regarding speed between the US Epyx and UK Activision releases. (I'm not saying that the games don't adjust their speed automatically.). The only thing they seem to change for the UK release is speed of RoF's title music - it plays faster (ie. correctly on PAL) in the Activision version. Edited August 7, 2014 by Kr0tki

[Grevle]

Well, I have both NTSC and PAL Ataris and it seems that most of the old Atari Classic games are intenden for NTSC Ataris, i mean the classic games like Star Raider, Missile Command, Pac-man, Dig Dug and many more classics like this, Newer games can have more PAL versions that will seem to play fast or wrongly on NTSC Ataris, like Dropzone, Death race,Hyper Blast, Air Attack, and so on, Now it seems that most of the New games being created is mostly for PAL Ataris, So using Atarimania and also playing the game on PAL or NTSC Atari to see what feels more natural game speed is a good idea.

[Grevle]

Ofcoarse the old Atari Classics is playable on PAL Atari also, But the color may be somewhat different and some of the games may seem a little slow paying, I think most of the NTSC games will play on PAL Atari. ... To Bad that there wasnt one world standard for video system back in the 80's, would have made the classic console/computer hobby more easy i think. But for modern consoles like PS4 and so on , It seem we now have a world standard , so it will be 60hz whenever your in USA or Europa or Japan and so on..

[+MrFish]

Ofcoarse the old Atari Classics is playable on PAL Atari also, But the color may be somewhat different...

 

This is one of the gripes I have with Atarimania's 8-bit screenshots. As far as I can tell they use PAL color palettes for everything. And in many cases these aren't even very good quality PAL palettes. It would be a better representation to use NTSC and PAL palettes where appropriate.

Edited August 18, 2014 by MrFish

[rodcastler_two]

I bumped into an interesting project from Adrian Black where he hacks a Commodore 16 with a programmable oscillator and some micro controller wizardry to enable swapping between PAL and NTSC.

 

It made me wonder if there's a way to use a similar setup and change the clock speed on an Atari 800XL NTSC machine so I can slow it down 17% and simulate PAL speed. I'd like to be able to enjoy european games at their intended speeds on my NTSC hardware.

Edited May 26, 2019 by rodcastler_two

[Urchlay]

It made me wonder if there's a way to use a similar setup and change the clock speed on an Atari 800XL NTSC machine so I can slow it down 17% and simulate PAL speed. I'd like to be able to enjoy european games at their intended speeds on my NTSC hardware.

Search this forum for "Antix", it does exactly that.

 

All I know about Antix is that exists, I've never used one, it's on my

list of stuff to get someday if I ever somehow get money to spend on

Atari mods again.

[Mclaneinc]

OP, do you mean what FPS they run at?

 

Not always as simple as what the capability of the display is..Some games get regulated these days, also with the old stuff you have to take into account that a game written for UK may not work properly because of timing issues on a US machine.

[pseudografx]

Our game RGB (http://a8.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=7075) adjusts its speed and colour palette (as colours play a substantial part in the game) based on the detected video system.

Edited May 26, 2019 by pseudografx

[_The Doctor__]

Our game RGB (http://a8.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=7075) adjusts its speed and colour palette (as colours play a substantial part in the game) based on the detected video system.

One of the best games imho, the attention to detail and planning put it in my personal favorites.

[rodcastler_two]

OP, do you mean what FPS they run at?

 

Not always as simple as what the capability of the display is..Some games get regulated these days, also with the old stuff you have to take into account that a game written for UK may not work properly because of timing issues on a US machine.

 

I am thinking beyond FPS, it's also about the game music.

 

See, this all comes down to the gameplay speed and music speed difference perceived by European and American users. My intention is to play games at the speed the developer and composers designed their games at. Emulator is the easiest way when simply selecting PAL/NTSC emulation, but I keep wondering what can be done with the hardware to slow down NTSC clock speeds to match PAL experience.

[Gunstar]

Conan for example, appears listed both in the UK and the US, and to your point one would need to check where is was FIRST released.

 

 

In a case like Conan, just knowing the publisher's country of origin will tell you. Datasoft is an American company and Conan was released first as an NTSC game.

 

Blacklamp was released by Atari UK, and never released officially in the states, so it was released as a PAL game first. In fact, I don't believe it even works right on an NTSC machine unless there is a hacked version.

[Gunstar]

 

 

but I keep wondering what can be done with the hardware to slow down NTSC clock speeds to match PAL experience.

Install a PAL ANTIC chip (or *hopefully* soon to be released Antix so you have both versions on board). Make sure you have a monitor or converter that can handle PAL signals.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Gunstar

[rodcastler_two]

Install a PAL ANTIC chip (or *hopefully* soon to be released Antix so you have both versions on board). Make sure you have a monitor or converter that can handle PAL signals.

 

Agree. Although I was hoping to just slow down the entire machine with an external clock instead of replacing the Antic chip (or adding two selectable antic chips) but it seems it's not that simple as just slowing it down with an external oscillator.

[_The Doctor__]

you would have to split it... colorburst frequency for NTSC has to remain, but you can get away with feeding some of the system the pal clock....another way one might go is the possibility to implement an 8%-10% halt cycle with some glue logic to keep things kosher.

 

Most of the older software might be patched to waste some time here or there without messing with the hardware though...

 

Some of the PAL games are so slow in native modes I prefer to play them at NTSC speeds anyway...

Edited May 27, 2019 by _The Doctor__