Why didn't they make real arcade hardware for the home?

[Keatah]

Why didn't they make real arcade hardware for the home? I mean why didn't they take an actual arcade board from a machine and shrink it down a little and build a system around that?

 

Was it just cost? I can't imagine so because a lot of that was standard TTL. Was arcade hardware too specialized for the game it ran? And not really adaptable to other games without changing the TTL stuff around?

 

Despite the NES, SNES, Dreamcast, PS1 and other consoles of the 90's, it wasn't until MAME and emulation that the real arcade games could be played at home. And that is still true today.

 

And on a second note, with the consoles of today being more sophisticated than current arcade hardware, isn't that the reason videogames don't do as big a business?

 

In fact, at places like Dave and Busters, it seems the non-videogames are more popular!

[Rybags]

A lot of arcade hw was specialized early on. I've recently been looking at Missile Command - it uses a fixed bitmapping system where the last 32 lines is 3 bpp and the remainder only 2 bpp. Also it has an addressing scheme such that most of the machine is only 15-bit addressing but the graphics can either be accessed by direct addressing or by (ind,X) which the board detects and alters the addressing such that the VRam is accessed such that a single pixel appears as the high 2 bits of data.

 

Some of the early Japanese games like Galaxian, Moon Cresta etc, Frogger used very similar hardware, some were interchangable.

Atari Lunar Lander, many machines were converted to Asteroids.

 

By the mid 80s, the likes of Atari System 1, 2 emerged, Sega and others had similar standards.

 

Overall though, arcade systems were usually much bulkier and specialised than an equivalent computer would have been. And the interfacing was usually only to the point of recognising some DIP switches, the joysticks/buttons and coin registers.

Additionally the monitors were usually RGB which at the time was a somewhat expensive option for the home. Doing video for RGB though is somewhat simpler than Chroma/Luma like most home systems did.

 

Why are todays consoles more advanced? Probably because everyone who likes games either has a console and/or computer. Arcade games are very much a niche market, often running the equivalent of an older PC hardware.

 

On that note though, it is good to see that a few pinballs are still being produced. Arcade video games are simply a different physical presence where pinball is an entire sensation in itself which probably never will be faithfully reproduced on a computer monitor.

[number six]

 

 

it wasn't until MAME and emulation that the real arcade games could be played at home. And that is still true today.

 

The Neo Geo crowd may take issue with you on that

 

I'm sure it was mostly cost. In the 80s the Arcade Hardware was usually quite a bit more advanced that what was available in home systems. Lots of components were very expensive back then especially things like RAM and ROM. Compare the size of even an early 80s game Arcade Game with its home counterpart and theres a pretty big difference. So even if both your systems have a z80 at their heart there are still a lot of other differences at play. Also designing a system around one particular game may not be the best way to go in terms of building a multi-purpose home system.

 

Later on computers and such bridged the gap somewhat but they were more expensive than your consoles.

 

Interestingly enough by the late 90s / 2000s many of your Arcade Games aren't even dedicated arcade games even more, many of them run off PCs with specialized adapters for the controls, etc.

 

But yes, the rise of the home console is what ultimately killed the arcades. When you no longer had that generational gap between the two there was less incentive to run down to the arcade and pay money-per-play when you could get the same experience at home. In many cases the home version was better especially when it was played on a console that had newer hardware than the original arcade.

 

Right now most of your arcade money is in redemption.. maybe the odd driving / gun game. This is because these offer something you can't exactly replicate at home which is why Dave and Busters mostly has this sort of ilk.

 

Video Games still do big business, probably more so than ever.. but its all home console driven now.

Edited September 20, 2014 by number six

[RodLightning]

Definitely a cost issue I think. In order to gain wow factor and earn quarters, custom development was justified. Even if you set aside the high sale price of a arcade cabinet, the same game over-and-over would have bored most gamers at home. There are of course, conversion kits to turn one game into another but the hardware had to be similar between game titles.

 

As posted by number six, the Neo-Geo bridged the gap between home and arcade setups by offering operators a cabinet with multiple games that could be swapped out. As I recall, they had a home system in the early 90s that myself and several friends lusted after, of course it was too costly for me and most people back then. I spent half that on my Atari ST system with access to lots of comparable games...no regrets there.

[+Charlie Cat]

Why didn't they make real arcade hardware for the home? I mean why didn't they take an actual arcade board from a machine and shrink it down a little and build a system around that?

 

 

As posted by number six, the Neo-Geo bridged the gap between home and arcade setups by offering operators a cabinet with multiple games that could be swapped out. As I recall, they had a home system in the early 90s that myself and several friends lusted after, of course it was too costly for me and most people back then. I spent half that on my Atari ST system with access to lots of comparable games...no regrets there.

 

 

Yes, the Neo-Geo AES (Advanced Entertainment System) was the closest-of-closest as you can get to bring the arcade experience home during that time period as a home system! When SNK was releasing MVS (Multiple Video System), the AES was available as a rental system because of concerns of the production cost was astronomical for the system to produce this type of new technology to your living room! However, the demand for the system for a retail release was high, and SNK to its credit was listening to the consumers on debuting the arcade experience to your own house! The price was not by any means cheap for this system, and they had two options to choose from. The silver option and a gold option that came with a game! Each game was around $200-$250 dollars each and most gamers couldn't afford this type of luxury. Those who did were able to have bragging rights saying that "I have a Neo-Geo system".

 

Its also important to mention that this system was not mass marketed unlike the Super NES or Genesis! SNK clearly noted to themselves that they would not surpass Nintendo, Sega, NEC because of the hefty price tag on the unit. SNK just wanted to capture a selective group of gamers and say that they can bring the arcade experience home! As I recall, 330,000+ units were available worldwide in Japan, Europe, USA, Korea ( SNK licensed Neo Geo built in Korea called VIC), etc Believe it or not, Neo-Geo was popular in Saudi Arabia! They made the AES system from 1990-1997. The last official published software for the AES by SNK was in 2004!

 

Anthony...

Edited September 20, 2014 by fdurso224

[Reaperman]

In addition to Neo Geo, there's also Capcom's CPS changer--both are the stuff dreams are made of.

 

Granted kmart/walmart didn't sell these systems to all the poor kids of the world. These were rare and quite expensive flowers, due largely to their lack of compromise. (and both LEGENDARY systems specifically because of this)

 

I highly recommend picking one of them up. It'll generally cost more than a modern system, but it's well worth it.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Reaperman

[Rybags]

Neo Geo originated around 1990, and the AES console was somewhat expensive, supposedly around $650 which would have been probably on par with an Amiga at the time.

We're talking similar era of Megadrive/Genesis, SNES. Mid/late 16-bit era where it would have had a decent advantage.

 

But the next generation consoles like PS1, Jaguar and maybe Saturn would blow it out of the water. Not to mention that 3D cards and games for the PC were emerging at the time as well.

 

Entirely possible that some company wanted to replicate it's arcade for a home computer but the gap in the market never opened up.

Before the mid 80s, there was no decent standardization, by the mid 80s it was Amiga and ST dominant at the consumer level.

By the end of the 80s, arcades on the wane so the risk factor was probably not worth it, and early 90s the proprietary system as we knew it was in it's last days and the PC was all set to become dominant.

[Keatah]

 

The Neo Geo crowd may take issue with you on that

 

It already has. But that's ok. I'm not interested in the Neo Geo or CPS eras at the moment.

 

Other than my discrete TTL clue-in I could have specifically said the 8-bit arcade cabinets and cited a few examples like Asteroids or Defender or Tempest and similar..

Edited September 20, 2014 by Keatah

[Keatah]

As I sit, wondering if I should convert my 'cps changer' controller to work with my Neo Geo, I wonder if this topic was really very well thought through.

 

It's thought through. I wonder if it is understood by all.

 

Moving on. Doesn't NeoGeo and CPS basically focus on beat-em-ups and side scrolling shooters? I always thought they did. But I could be mistaken. Anways they're not my cup of tea.

[high voltage]

Colecovision

[Keatah]

Not a chance. As much as I like Colecovision, I still have to say it isn't arcade hardware.

[Rybags]

I wouldn't say Colecovision is arcade derived - probably some machines had the Z80 + TI graphics chip config but it's a fairly generic type of combination.

[Classic Pac]

Unless I am mistaken didn't they with the Neo Geo?

[CatPix]

 

It already has. But that's ok. I'm not interested in the Neo Geo or CPS eras at the moment.

 

Other than my discrete TTL clue-in I could have specifically said the 8-bit arcade cabinets and cited a few examples like Asteroids or Defender or Tempest and similar..

TTL tech was costly at the time, and also highly unreliable.Plus, it simply can play only the game it was built for.

Every arcade game of the 70 and most of the 80's are made on an unique design.

TTL games would have been impossible to make on a standard "console and cart" design because TTL technology isn't computer design. It's a part of it, but TTL consist mostly of analog signals manipulated on the go, and little to no programming.

You could have a "video board" holding the basic design of simple games, like the Interton Video 2000 and Philips TeleSpiel consoles do, but it mean that the carts hold more technology than the console itself (if you wanna create more than your average Pong variant).

Moving on computer based games, the problem being the lot of different technologies.

Different CPU, and even more different GPU, different sound chips means that no consoles could emulate any arcade game.

There are a few standardized arcade systems in the 80's, most notably the ZGRASS machine by Bally. And so, the Bally Astrocade is the closest "arcade to home console" experience you can get in the 70'.

The Astrocade have the same CPU than the Bally Arcade machines, the same graphic chip, and the same sound chip.

But it's not perfect either since because of price limitations, the Astrocade have only 4Ko of RAM, where the arcade usually had more 32 or 64 Ko of RAM.

Also the graphic chip can't access the high resolution mod on the console.

It seems that adding a 64Ko module on the Astrocade may give access to it, but it's unclear.

 

Well the bottomline is, before arcade got standardized, you could only have reprogrammed arcade adaptations on home systems.

And the whole point of arcade games was to offer you something you couln't get at home, therefore the arcade machines had to get more and more powerful.

Edited September 20, 2014 by CatPix

[Keatah]

TTL (transistor-transistor-logic) refers to a family of logic gates built around the BJT (bipolar junction transistor). TTL is digital in that 0v-0.8v is logic low. And 2.6v-VCC is logic high, with VCC being right around 5v give or take a hundred mv here and there. Anything in the center band 0.8v-2.6v is uncertain and the gate could do anything. Make no mistake, this is digital logic.

 

Interton, now there's a name! One of my first pong or racing consoles by Video Action! I remember taking it apart when something went wrong with it and pulling out the white chip. I was a baby at the time I think. Man that was a monster and I never saw a circuit that looked like it before. I'm pretty sure Interton/Omninetics made the chip. And ZGRASS. I bet I still have it in the basement!

 

I just love 70's tech company names. So much more futuristic than what we got today. Yes?

[CatPix]

That's for sure. Creatronics, ITMC, SOE Occitel, Univox, RIL (Rollet International Limited), Orelec, Klervox... some Pong sellers I recall from here. And eRe Informatique, Loriciels, Kalisto, Lankhor, Microïds, (tho those are developers from the early 80's). Oh well.

Edited September 20, 2014 by CatPix

[Torr]

As has been mentioned, they DID bring arcade hardware home with the Neo Geo.

 

I've always assumed that the cost of ROM and Processors made it prohibitive to make a personal home system as powerful as arcade hardware.

Kind of like today, everyone has a DVD player... but how many people have a couple hundred inch screen, and multi-thousand watt surround sound system to give the same experience a theater provides?

The only reason a theater can justify spending so much money on presentation of the media is that they are charging people per viewing and making profit.

Same as the arcades. Owners could justify spending so much money to fill a room with games because they were charging people per play and making profit.

 

Back then, same as today, there ARE the select few who can afford to spend thousands of dollars to experience the theater/arcade experience in their own home. Some people back in the day had a few cabinets or a Neo Geo in their home, today some people have a home theater in their basement.

 

Let's rewind a bit to the release of the Genesis, a system that claimed to bring the arcade experience home...

Think about it, you could have a "Home Arcade" by buying a Sega Genesis, which had Altered Beast packed in, then buy Forgotten Worlds, Ghouls'n Ghosts, Golden Axe, Super Hang-On, After Burner II, E-SWAT & Space Harrier II. That would set you back about $800. But it just wouldn't be the same, it wouldn't look or sound as nice, BUT, how many arcade cabinets would you get with $800? And in the end you would still go to the arcade to play the newest games when they came out or to play your fave game in it's arcade glory; same as today, you probably have a shelf FULL of DVDs in your home, but in the end you still go to theaters to see the newest ones and (if you could) would go to a theater to see your fave films in all their theatrical glory.

The fact that Sega didn't put Scaling Hardware into the Genesis HAD to be a cost decision, because the first 3 titles were based on Arcade games that used Super Scaling. Altered Beast used it very little, but Space Harrier and Thunder Blade were basically just graphical showcases of the Super Scaling hardware and when they were brought to a system that couldn't scale graphics, the games took a bit hit in presentation. I believe Sega had every intention of putting the Super Scaler hardware in the Genny but had to cut it out to do cost... why else would they make their first 3 games based on Super Scaler games? Launch titles should showcase the system's capabilities, in the Genesis' case, the launch titles showcased the system's limitations.

Let's use Altered Beast as an example, it was 16 Megabits in the arcade. When they brought it home they had to cut out the Super Scaling aspects and trim the file size down to 4 Megabits. A scant 2 years go by and now ROM is cheaper and I assume processors too because now 16 Megabits is kind of the norm for Game Cartridges and the Sega CD DID have Scaling hardware and both were being reasonably priced/marketed. Unless Sega's head of operations was smoking crack he obviously would have made the launch titles have 16 megabits of storage and put Scaling hardware in the stock Genesis, there can be only one reason they didn't, the one reason ANY business refuses to do something; it wasn't profitable.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Torr

[Reaperman]

 

It's thought through. I wonder if it is understood by all.

 

Moving on. Doesn't NeoGeo and CPS basically focus on beat-em-ups and side scrolling shooters? I always thought they did. But I could be mistaken. Anways they're not my cup of tea.

Oh yeah, now that the room's spinning a lot less than last night, it's easier for me to think. Talk like a pirate day was pretty rough...yarr...

 

I'd say the Neo has a strong focus on fighting, though it has pretty much the full spectrum of arcade titles and a large enough library for a lot of genres to be pretty well represented. I don't tend to like fighters, but neo has no shortage of other things for me to play. CPS changer tends to split itself between its fighters and beat'em ups but its smaller library leaves it without much else to do.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Reaperman

[TheObscureGamer]

And unlike the Neo Geo,it ran the ACTUAL arcade PCB board.

[CatPix]

The Neo Geo AES can perfectly run MSV carts, with the proper adaptor. I guess Neo Geo wanted to control the arcade and console markets tight so they made AES carts different in shape than the MSV carts.

[Reaperman]

The Neo Geo AES can perfectly run MSV carts, with the proper adaptor. I guess Neo Geo wanted to control the arcade and console markets tight so they made AES carts different in shape than the MSV carts.

I don't think there was anything tight about it. SNK was selling the MVS carts for $1k-2k and wanted to keep arcade operators from buying the (then) cheaper AES carts. If they hadn't done that, it would have been pretty hard to get arcade distributors on board.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Reaperman

[fiddlepaddle]

Wasn't the Astrovision/Bally Astrocade designed as an attempt to bring the arcade hardware into the home?

[Rybags]

Astrocade shared Bally's video processor designed by Dave Nutting. Although for home use it was restricted to the lower resolutions.

[CatPix]

I mentionned it. The Astrocade use the same chipsets (video, audio, processor) than the Arcade, but the mere amount of RAM make impossible to use the high resolution mod.

An Astrocade II was prototyped, using 64k of RAM, allowing for the high reolsution mode, and adding a second sound chip plus the digital voice chip found in the arcades.

[high voltage]

Here's another