Jump to content
IGNORED

Lines in menu


weststigers89

Recommended Posts

Hey guys,

 

Just recieved and set up my Harmony. It's awesome!

Only thing is the menu has black lines going through it (3 lines going through each row of words, which is basically half the word blacked out). Obviously this makes it very hard to read. I have update the cart to PAL (from Australia) but that didn't help. My Atari is AV connverted and I use a new LCD TV. Is there anything else I could try or is this just the way it is?

 

I've noticed a few other threads similar to this but after reading them still wasn't too sure if there was a solution or not and even if they were having the exact same problem.

 

Thanks for any help

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only thing is the menu has black lines going through it (3 lines going through each row of words, which is basically half the word blacked out).

Could be different reasons:

1. You are using an LCD which is acting weird (unlikely)

2. Your TV's brightness/contrast is too low (if you enable the menu color cycling, are the lines moving?)

3. Some other, yet unknown problem...

 

Can you post a picture, please?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wierd issue with some TVs I believe. My 2006 Sanyo LCD HDTV does this. My CRT doesn't. I have no idea why. The lines that appear are also notably fatter than interlacing artifacts due to 30Hz cycling so it must be something else.

 

I forgot how to make the colors cycle but I remember my Harmony doing this last time I hooked it up. I hadn't noticed it before.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. You are using an LCD which is acting weird (unlikely)

 

 

Actually it's very likely. Some modern TVs treat 240p signals from video game systems as 480i*. I did a mockup in this reply which shows how the flickering fire in Stay Frosty gets displayed on my sister's HDTV. The Harmony's menu on her TV exhibits the exact same problem that weststigers89 describes.

 

If the set has a "game mode" setting it might fix the problem. If not, the best solution would be to pick up an old analog TV.

 

 

* for PAL that'd be 288p treated as 576i

Edited by SpiceWare
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We could try to easy those problems by choosing the brightness different. But if you experience what is displayed in the mockup, there is nothing we can do.

 

It looks like the TV is combining two flickering lines to one, none flickering line, leaving the other line empty. I can only guess what algorithm may cause this, maybe it's the comb filter or deinterlacing. So you definitely should try to change your TVs settings.

Edited by Thomas Jentzsch
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But the Harmony menu lines are thicker than normal interlaced. For instance, I played Ladybug and the playfield graphics which flicker at 30Hz, were much finer.

 

I have a theory: Perhaps the scanlines on the Harmony menu being alternated between every other scanline at 30 Hz, simulating 240i resolution, ie even lines on a 240p frame would be illuminated on even frames and odd scanlines on odd frames? During the conversion from 240p to 480i, this would result in the odd pixel from one scanline being paired with the even pixel from the next. Doing so would create a rastor pattern on an HDTV like 011001100110 creating a thicker venetian blind effect than say flickering a solid playfield every other frame (only even or only odd scanlines in a 480i frame), which creates a much finer rastor pattern on HDTV display 010101010101

 

Thus 240i flicker pattern would show with better persistence of vision on a 240p display, compared to 30Hz flicker, while simultaneously creating a fatter venetian blind effect when treated and upconverted as 480i.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You cannot compare Ladybug. There the full playfield flickers between two colors and with little contrast between both colors.

 

Your theory about Harmony is right, but not 100% complete. There is also flicker between even and odd characters. Here is how it looks (each X represents a full character columnm, but only a single scan line):

Even:

X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.
.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X
X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.
.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X
Odd:

.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X
X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.
.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X
X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can you trick displays to not deinterlace by doing 2 odd frames then 2 even frames?

Does anyone use the color cycling more than the static display?

Would 15Hz flicker show both parts of the text on displays that force deinterlace (without leaving an empty line)?

 

Color cycling is chosen by setting the Color/BW switch to BW.

If 15Hz flicker doesn't leave blank lines, maybe you want to replace color cycling with 15Hz flicker?

Any work in the screen roll going into and out of folders in the latest bios?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would 15Hz flicker show both parts of the text on displays that force deinterlace (without leaving an empty line)?

No idea. Maybe, maybe not.

 

If 15Hz flicker doesn't leave blank lines, maybe you want to replace color cycling with 15Hz flicker?

That would require a rewritten kernel. And 15Hz flicker is IMO completely terrible anyway. :)

 

Any work in the screen roll going into and out of folders in the latest bios?

When testing, I have an odd behavior. After flashing a new BIOS I can reproduce the problem. But only until I switch off and on the console. Then it is gone. No clue yet why.

 

Can you reproduce that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can you trick displays to not deinterlace by doing 2 odd frames then 2 even frames?

Does anyone use the color cycling more than the static display?

Technically, yes. Display technology is universally progressive displays with the exception of analog CRTs.

 

A progressive analog signal is 240p @60.10 Hz, typically defined as 262 scanlines on every frame. It is a non-standard signal. Most classic computers and video game systems output a progressive 240p signal. The period of the frame is slightly shorter due to the deleted scanline, resulting in a fractionally faster framerate. NES refreshes at 60.1Hz but in reality every console varies slightly.

 

An interlaced analog signal is defined as 480i @59.94 Hz, defined as 262 scanlines for one frame followed by 263 scanlines on the following frame. This is broadcast standard and all deinterlace scalers are designed to decode this format.

 

On analog display (CRT), the 263 field displays the odd scanlines,, spaced a half scanline apart from the 262 fields (even). The digital scalers in modern HDTVs count the number of scanlines and assign the 263 frame to the odd lines. Because 240p is non-standard, most scalers will attempt to deinterlace the signal anyway. Virtually all commercial mass produced scaler chips do this. This creates a venitian blind effect whenever sprites are toggled at 30Hz.

 

A custom scaler that's compatible with both progressive and interlaced would need to count the scanlines on every frame. if an even scanline count were detected every frame, then each line could be doubled and transmitted to the HDTV digitally as (480p or higher) progressvie signal. This would display flicker correctly on modern TVs. If every other frame were detected as an odd scanline count, then the custom scaler could apply a deinterlace filter. Highly custom scalers exist which will detect progressive signals and upscale without deinterlacing artifacts, but these custom scalers generally cost a few hundred a piece. Furthermore, they add lag to the signal on top of whatever internal scaler the HDTV uses natively.

 

This is why I feel that classic game systems are best viewed on CRT displays, which will display progressive 240p signal without issue. If you insist on using an HDTV to play games, you will have to put up with venetian blinds + lag, or add an expensive custom upscaler designed for progressive analog video, which will eliminate the venetian blind effect at the expense of added lag. Your choice.

Edited by stardust4ever
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No idea. Maybe, maybe not. That would require a rewritten kernel. And 15Hz flicker is IMO completely terrible anyway. :) When testing, I have an odd behavior. After flashing a new BIOS I can reproduce the problem. But only until I switch off and on the console. Then it is gone. No clue yet why.Can you reproduce that?

I agree that 15Hz is completely terrible, but if it is more readable on LCD's and projectors than the skipped black lines I'd say rewrite and replace the color cycling.

 

The Paging up and down jumping goes away after a switch on and off, but not the enter and exiting folders jumping.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that 15Hz is completely terrible, but if it is more readable on LCD's and projectors than the skipped black lines I'd say rewrite and replace the color cycling.

Won't happen, sorry. I have a CRT to enjoy the Atari 2600 games. No way that I will cripple the display on original hardware. (BTW: On PAL we would have even worse 12.5 Hz)

 

The Paging up and down jumping goes away after a switch on and off, but not the enter and exiting folders jumping.

Weird. For me both disappear. No idea what's causing that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I use original hardware preferred.

It is not crippling if the BW switch option is changed from rolling the colors to a mode that is more readable on LCDs and Projection systems. That is assuming 15Hz flicker doesn't also deinterlace into black lines. (Actually I think it causes those displays to completely drop the image). The switch in color position would display the way the switch in color position displays currently.

All I am suggesting is that if there is a way to make it display clearly on all displays, you should have the option mapped to the color switch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is not crippling if the BW switch option is changed from rolling the colors to a mode that is more readable on LCDs and Projection systems. That is assuming 15Hz flicker doesn't also deinterlace into black lines. (Actually I think it causes those displays to completely drop the image). The switch in color position would display the way the switch in color position displays currently.

All I am suggesting is that if there is a way to make it display clearly on all displays, you should have the option mapped to the color switch.

That's not possible. There is not enough space in the Harmony ROM to support two different display kernels. Also, there is no guarantee that this would work for all or even the majority of LCD displays. So, how many display kernels should we support? Each would have to be written from scratch and provided in a separate BIOS.

 

Same for new games, some of those will never look OK on those displays. Each may have different problems. So, what should we do here? Discourage developing new games which go to the limits, just because some modern hardware badly "optimizes" the result? Request those games with different kernels as you request for Harmony?

 

This will not work. The standard for old consoles is CRT and always will be. You can still buy them, cheap. Alternatively you can try to find an LCD which works best with ancient hardware. Good luck!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just accept the lines. Simulated 240i over 240p, upconverted to 480i upconverted to progressive HD is causing the crazy venetian blinds effects. I don't think color cycling will change the venetian blinds effect much. Yes the display looks bad but is still somewhat readable on LCD displays.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Okay I don't think people quite understand what's going on here, so I will attempt to describe it visually.

 

The Harmony cart menu is actually displaying a 240i picture over 240 scanlines. With each line refresh signal, the Harmony cart will output only on odd or even scanlines. The missing lines in the 240p signal are there but they display a black picture. On a CRT display, each of these fields get rendered on top of each other. Your eyes perceive the picture on a raster display as 240 solid scanlines, just like you would percieve a 480i signal as 480 scanlines or continuous picture.

 

I have drawn a little diagram that describes exactly what's going on with the Harmony menu and HDTV upscalers. The 240i scaling effect is much coarser than a 240p strobing effect (30Hz flicker). When an HDTV recieves a 240p picture, one of the frames is randomly assigned even and the other frame is randomply assigned odd. Here is a diagram. I may have have gotten the even/odd fields swapped but the net effect is the same. You see color bars which include the even feiled of one line and the odd field of the other.

post-33189-0-50189900-1415231110_thumb.png

 

Likewise, here is the effect when 30Hz flicker in 240p is applied to a CRT display and HDTV display.

post-33189-0-26727300-1415231955_thumb.png

 

As you can see, the venetian blinds effect seen on the Harmony menu is noticeably fatter than that typically seen on games which flicker the entire sprite at 30Hz. Ideallly what you want for 240p signals from video game consoles is a line doubler, not a deinterlacer. Doubling every 240p scanline to create a 480p picture would enable the video game to be displayed as the creators intended on an HD display. However, no commercial scaler chip like the kind used in HDTVs supports true 240p mode, so the scaler chip guesses which field should be even or odd (or randomly assigns them) and you get a picture on the display that is incorrectly deinterlaced.

 

No current HDTV on the market will upconvert 240p to 480p properly. They all apply the deinterlace filter which ruins any game that uses sprite flicker. External scalers do exist from third parties which will properly line-double a 240p signal, however they are extremely expensive and typically add a small amount of lag to the chain in addition to any lag the HDTV display adds. This may or may not be more than the internal scaler the HDTV uses to process analog video. Sorry but I'm not spending between $200-$400 bucks to get a crisp picture on an already laggy HDTV, especially when secondhand CRTs are still relatively common, cheap and affordable.

 

Worse still, when video is captured directly from a console and uploaded to youtube without proper post processing, instead of blending the even and odd frames, YT discards them instead. This can often result in the devastating consequence of larger portions of the action being completely deleted in some cases. This effect can be eliminated by using software like Handbrake to convert the interlaced video to 29.97fps using the "blend" option. The output video would then be similar to applying the phosphor effect in Stella. Almost nobody preprocesses the video before uploading to youtube though. Someone really did disservice to a DK homebrew video I saw once, due to the multicolor sprite kernel used to draw the How high screen. Donkey Kong never looked worse...

Edited by stardust4ever
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...