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10 minutes of Testsounds

or somewhat longer ;

24 replies to this topic

#1 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 6, 2014 7:29 AM



Still RMT 50Hz VBI.
Sometimes you get nuts, searching for doing workarounds with the limited RMT features, but then you wonder, what still is possible there ;)

#2 Rybags OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 6, 2014 7:36 AM

Some pretty nice musical effects in there (I kinda scanned through) - some types I don't think I'd heard before and some I'd have thought not so possible.



#3 576XE OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 6, 2014 1:31 PM

I'm with Rybags.  :)

You are very powerfull with sound.



#4 Stephen OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 6, 2014 1:33 PM

Excellent instruments!



#5 Marius OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 6, 2014 2:01 PM

you and kjmann should join…. 



#6 pirx OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 6, 2014 5:09 PM

leads are fantastic! Kudos, emkay. This need to be taught at the pokey academy of sound sciences.

 

The weak point is, as we all pokeyers know, the bass line...

 

pirxxx



#7 Rybags OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 6, 2014 6:33 PM

For reference, the C64 LN2 Street level loader music



#8 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 7, 2014 2:16 AM

Thanks to all.


leads are fantastic! Kudos, emkay. This need to be taught at the pokey academy of sound sciences.
 
The weak point is, as we all pokeyers know, the bass line...
 
pirxxx


This time I'm not really disappointed with the "bass line" sound of POKEY, as the leads move through the frequency ranges.
It's actually the 1st tune, I made(converted), I like more, when listening moreoften to it ;) So it fits in a good way.
16 Bit would have solved more problems ;)


@Rybags.

The sounds were all done in 64khz mode, using "filter" . In some instruments I had to chose between stability or sound gaps.
When posting the C64 "original" , did you have some ideas ?

#9 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 7, 2014 11:12 AM

A small update. For a shortcut you can move to ~ 4:15

Feel free to have suggestions :)




#10 Rybags OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 7, 2014 11:25 AM

Didn't realise it was all 64 KHz, I got the impression maybe some 1.77 Mhz mode tricks were going on.

 

Only posted C64 version for comparison purposes... each version has it's advantages over the other.

 

This tune would go well with a demo or rotation of suitably themed pics... of course the game itself would be the ideal but won't be happening in a hurry.



#11 R4ngerM4n OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 7, 2014 11:58 AM

I think it's a good start, but still there is a long way to go in order to match the original sound Rybags posted.


Edited by R4ngerM4n, Fri Nov 7, 2014 11:59 AM.


#12 analmux OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 7, 2014 4:02 PM

... I got the impression maybe some 1.77 Mhz mode tricks were going on ...


Where did you got this impression? Which part do you mean? One example?

See my examples, f.e. (6) here: http://atariage.com/...note/?p=3082325

#13 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 9, 2014 7:51 AM

A 3rd one, just for comparision, some optimisations, and still some experimental parts.
Remember: It's still RMT , 50Hz VBI ...



#14 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:44 PM

For a real fair comparision, here is an "Altirra" Version.



Altirra replays the "dependency" of the channels much better than any other emulation. On the negative side, the emulator has heavy problems with the replay timing at all. But things get still a good recognition value.

The version also uses a different bass setting at the start. The "non linear" volume mixing is a bit over, but everything is recognizable. Have a listen.... it'S not bad, but...

Well, POKEY doesn't seem able to play even one real bass sound in a musical way. It's always needed to have the "high sounding" distortions" to compensate the volume mixing issues.

The only way to go around the bass creation problems is still "digitizing" . I think, particular this tune" shows in a clear way, that POKEY can do " almost everything" in mid and highrange, using the sound generators. But, If you want to have something "named music" played on the A8, you need to do the bass sounds via software.

#15 analmux OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:31 PM

It's always needed to have the "high sounding" distortions" to compensate the volume mixing issues.


Only when not using any polycounter reset or offset, i.e. STIMER & SKCTL control. In case of 'AUDF+1 = 3*{INTEGER}' or 'AUDF+1 = 5*{INTEGER}' the distortion effect is minimal. Anyway, why do you ignore 15 kHz mode?

#16 Jinks OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:37 PM

The c64 version sucks compared to your a8 one.
That bass sound on the 64 sounds like a big fart.

#17 analmux OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:48 PM

The c64 version sucks compared to your a8 one.
That bass sound on the 64 sounds like a big fart.


That's the spirit. :thumbsup: ... BUT still there is a long way for PoKey to go in order to match the original "big fart".

Edited by analmux, Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:55 PM.


#18 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:03 AM

Only when not using any polycounter reset or offset, i.e. STIMER & SKCTL control. In case of 'AUDF+1 = 3*{INTEGER}' or 'AUDF+1 = 5*{INTEGER}' the distortion effect is minimal. Anyway, why do you ignore 15 kHz mode?


I'm not ignoring 15kHz mode. It's just that you're rather more limited for creating melodic parts with a good recognition value. In 15kHz mode you also get restricted to use the upper range of pitch values, and those get more unsharp than the lower pitch values.

The bass generators, have again a listen to the start of the Altirra version. The "peaky" sounds do not come in . The resulting sound is somehow powerless. But the harmonics interfere with the other voices in that range. A clean sine or triangle would solve all problems.

Things get interesting, when trying to "shoot" through the generated waves. But for that, the granted "common start" for the created wave has to be there 1st.

#19 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:28 AM

The c64 version sucks compared to your a8 one.
That bass sound on the 64 sounds like a big fart.


The bass is splitted into 2 parts . There is the "guitar" part, that really sounds better on the A8. This "peaky orbit" sound also doesn't disturb the other voices in a "bad" way. So it fits well.
But there is also that Baseline, that sounds very blasty in many many tunes of the C64. It's a "frequency filler" and a "friend to the ears". You cannot create that with the soundgenerators and the "sh.." audio circuitry that is used to mix POKEY, GTIA and the Audio channel of the SIO Port.
The best way is to use PWM created by software. A recognizable "300Hz" sound needs a "600Hz" sampling rate. Basses are tending to need lesser sample rates though.

3 channel tunes (just like SIDs) would allow to use one channel with a POKEY timer and play the created wave. Such a "wave creation" also doesn't need huge amounts of RAM. Just one waveshape stored , would be enough for one bass instrument.

#20 analmux OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:22 AM

In 15kHz mode you also get restricted to use the upper range of pitch values, and those get more unsharp than the lower pitch values.


OK, but only when using standard RMT for example, without one of the patches. Maybe a new RMT patch is an interesting idea? Then I'm thinking about studying poly 4 & poly 5 patch tables, at 1.79 MHz. Of course it's still a pity that RMT doesn't support filter reset, filter offset, polycounter reset or polycounter offset.

Edited by analmux, Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:30 AM.


#21 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:01 PM

Of course it's still a pity that RMT doesn't support filter reset, filter offset, polycounter reset or polycounter offset.


It's actually the biggest "pity", not to have a "100%" emulation there. Using the RMT's features and having a direct feedback, how it plays on the real thing is simply mising and should be trivial.

Here is a 10 Minutes work on the "Altirra" version to compensate the volume issue.

Do
(doing a change in RMT, save it, load it play it in Altirra)
Loop

...

Which , in some cases can be used to have additional FX, IF it is 100% correct to the "original hardware" sound.



#22 analmux OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:30 PM

It's actually the biggest "pity", not to have a "100%" emulation there. Using the RMT's features and having a direct feedback, how it plays on the real thing is simply mising and should be trivial.


OK, but using the possibilities we have RMT we still could study a new tryout with poly@1.79MHz mode. Four lists may be interesting to summarize whether AUDF+4 is a multiple of 3 (YES3/NO3) or a multiple of 5 (YES5/NO5):

(a ) If AUDF suffices YES3 & YES5, then AUDF1 is an element of series 11,26,41,56,71,86,... (should be silent)
(b ) If AUDF suffices NO3 & YES3, then AUDF1 is an element of series 1,6,16,21,31,36,46,51,...
(c ) If AUDF suffices YES3 & NO5, then AUDF1 is an element of series 2,5,8,14,17,20,23,29,32,35,38,44,...
(d ) If AUDF suffices NO3 & NO5, then AUDF1 is an element of series 0,3,4,7,9,10,12,13,15,18,19,22,24,...

We could ignore (a) and (b). See the similar frqtabbass1 and frqtabbass2 series. A new patch may be interesting.

Edited by analmux, Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:31 PM.


#23 analmux OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:04 PM

Here I used an approximation without RMT patches, to play poly4 at 1.79MHz tests, with flanger effects. There are no final tunes (still) yet. But note that 1st tryouts give interesting results IMO. Especially note that I used 15kHz mode to make 8bit square bass possible. One of these 6 xex-files is a tune using sawtooth instruments, using RMT patch 2.

Attached Files


Edited by analmux, Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:07 PM.


#24 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:31 AM

I put it into this thread....

Yelling POKEY is one of those "beasts" .
This tune shows it (possibly) . The start sometimes is yelling, but it's already rather low. The short time for the notes doesn't leave room to have both, being better in tune or make the instrument sounding more decent. In Altirra the nonlinear mixing is on, to have a good comparision how it sounds on the real thing. You also have an instrument using volume changes for a smooth reverb....

So, if you want to have a listen....



#25 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Dec 1, 2014 4:04 PM

No Response? hmm...

That's how it sounds in RMT itself.



If differences will be removed, the result will be better.




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