phoenixdownita Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 (edited) I used to have a handwired SVideo mod for my 7800 but my LCD TV didn't like it, it kept on losing signal every 2 sec or so ... very annoying. I thought it was my fault so I bought an Electronic Sentimentalities V2.1B video mod board and it basically does the same thing over the SVideo out. Even worse if I use a Composite to SVideo splitter it also stutters. I venture Atari didn't exactly follow std signals for the video signals, meaning the mess is also present in Composite. The direct composite itself work, I believe because likely the TV has a filter that "stabilizes/clamp/adapt" the signal much better than over SVideo. On the bright side the composite signal out of the Electronic Sentimentalities V2.1B mod board is much crisper and clearer than the one from the 1 transistor mod ... at least there is that. Mind that I am not blaming Electronic Sentimentalities, packaging was great, shipping was quick and all the hardware was included, so that is beside the point, only thing I believe I'd like my Pokey to have a higher volume so I'd put a resistor over before the merge to act as a splitter, ,maybe 10K it's all that I need there. Needless to say on the Plasma TV on the other room it all works fine [handwired or V2.1B) but I can't move either TV or console so I'm stuck to using composite .... I'll live "somewhat". On another note Tower Toppler colors looks weirder on the Electronic Sentimentalities V2.1B than it did on the Easy Video 1 NPN mod ... again I'll live ... only one game to rely on artifacts so heavily it's not even funny , serves it well Anyone share the same SVideo woes? The TV that is SVideo challenged is a Vizio 27" ... I know I'm a cheap guy. Edited November 8, 2014 by phoenixdownita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
78001987 Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 From everything I've read, this sounds like the TV isn't tolerant if the signal, rather than the problem being the mod itself. Because of the nature of digital tv signal processing, and thier finicky, narrow baseline for acceptable signals, many many people experience problems with recently modded classic consoles on newer digital/HDTV sets. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
78001987 Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 And unfortunately yes, the old adage often rings true - you get what you pay for. Vizio is a budget brand, not unlike Sanyo or Magnavox. If I were you, I would try to get your hands on a free or cheap CRT tv, and used it for consoles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted November 8, 2014 Author Share Posted November 8, 2014 Yeah, I believe nothing wrong with the mod. I secretly was hoping my hand made one was the culprit rather than the origin signal itself. I have to say I like the Electronic Sentimentalities PCB work, all is neat and clean, it's a neat kit. Regarding CRTs they are not an option for me, too bulky for the size I am interested in and besides a few games here and there SVideo works wonder with all the retro-console I use, the fact that the Vizio TV has less "conditioning" over SVideo is actually a nice thing as the graphic is as crisp as it can be (when it works that is).... with the side effects that all game generated artifacts are lost but the blurring is gone too. I have to say I have also a NeoGeo AES to which I performed the SVideo mod myself (CXA1145 so nothing much to it) and a couple of games show the same behavior albeit on a much longer time scale, like stutter for 1 sec every 30 or more, the 7800 is 1 sec out of every 3 or 5 .... unusable. The fact that a SVideo splitter over the composite signal still triggers the mess makes me believe the signal itself carries some nasty out of spec bursts which likely an old CRT would simply filter out almost by inertia [bTW I had the same issue with the single NPN mod as well used with a splitter, so it is not the Electronic Sentimentalities mod, I just thought that somehow the on-board FMS6400 with its Butterworth filter would eliminate the nasty components] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoundGammon Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 I run mine into my Samsung DVD recorder and out it's HDMI jack up to 1080i, but I like the 720p better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Too bad this is only gonna get worse. Someone needs to design an old-school rf-composite-ntsc-svideo to hdmi converter, with classic computers in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 If it makes you feel any better, I bought a Hauppauge USB capture device for recording gameplay. NES/SNES works flawless. SMS/Genny composite and Atari VCS (demodulated via VCR) have terrible grayscale jailbars as the colorburst somehow doesn't register correctly. As a workaround, I can get full color running S-Video from the Genny side of my Super Retro Trio. My Best AV modded 7800 is a lost cause on the Hauppauge capture device (displays unsupported signal) but it works fine on my 2006 Sanyo HDTV. I think Atari 7800 is unique in that it supplies the wrong number of clocks per scanline. I think the other 240p consoles get this right. Sega and Atari 2600 simply may not have have formatted the NTSC color burst properly, which would explain the grayscale jailbars. Either way, all HDTVs are going to attempt to deinterlace a 240p signal, causing scanline artifacts whenever a sprite is flickered at 30Hz. The appropriate way to handle this would be to line-double the signal to 480p instead. There are expensive! scalers out there that will do this for you. Results may vary from one set to another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted November 8, 2014 Author Share Posted November 8, 2014 Do you think that a 7800 PAL is fine instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Do you think that a 7800 PAL is fine instead? I have no idea. But the cheap $40 upconverters will give you the same deinterlacing artifacts that normal HDTVs have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Can someone point me to a rf to hdmi converter as I never want to screw up my factory 7800 with colour and sound issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 (edited) Can someone point me to a rf to hdmi converter as I never want to screw up my factory 7800 with colour and sound issues. Looks like you've got 3 choices, bro... Option 1: Atari console ---RF--> busted VCR ---RCA--> HDMI upscaler ---HDMI--> High Definition TV. Option 2: CRT Option 3: Get an AV 7800, pre-modded from Best... Edited November 8, 2014 by stardust4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
78001987 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Can someone point me to a rf to hdmi converter as I never want to screw up my factory 7800 with colour and sound issues.adding composite or s-video doesn't screw up color or sound issues. It makes them significantly better than your factory rf signal. The problems described here are caused by cheap tvs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Get a nice 13" CRT S-video monitor and put it on your desk, next to your PC. It's fabulous. Phosphor dots and scanlines do an Atari (7800 or otherwise) a lot of justice, particularly when connected to a high-quality CRT through S-video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Got a 27" hitachi ultravision CRT I go rf on that one. and 50"1080p plasma i go atari to vcr to surround av unit to tv. Maybe my blueray before the av system might upscale it? I know where I can get a 1700 or something commodore monitor but it requires a composite input. Sound as in pokey volume too low. Color as in zero artifacting. To me it sounds like a turn for the worse. Or play wii emulation then can play all roms for free and not have to sit cross legged 3 feet from the tv.(this is not gonna happen tho) but for the love of god is a wireless arcade stick for this system possible or any demand for it? We could still play in real harware but be comfortable. Creeping up on 40 and sitting bug eyed with a sore ass on the hardwood is losing its charm. Ok I guess I could invest in a sweet bean bag? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted November 9, 2014 Author Share Posted November 9, 2014 ... Creeping up on 40 and sitting bug eyed with a sore ass on the hardwood is losing its charm. Ok I guess I could invest in a sweet bean bag? ROTFL .... my plasma TV is in the hardwood floor room, my retroconsoles are in the tiny carpeted room, but still I relate to "sitting bug eyed with a sore ass". Anyway speaking of the Electronic Sentimentalities mod I managed to put a 10K resistor between the TIA sound and the Pokey sound (rather than simply bridge the 2 together) and now Commando is much more balanced. Also the TIA9 switch is really a must for 7800 playing, it really clears out those nasty diag lines (clearly visible if you pump up the brightness, sometimes it manifests as a bizarre 45 degree "flashing"). I wonder if the SVideo mess could be caused by the TIA lumas, after all if the chroma (TIA9) interferes with 7800 mode it is possible that the TIA lumas (all 3 of them) do harm even if in 7800 mode they should be neutral, just a thought ... maybe MARIA is fine but the signal merge with TIA is what causes the glitches. [or maybe it is the TIA CSYNC fault, who knows] Finally, I do have a tiny 13" CRT (composite only) available to play light gun games but the experience is ... "sore ass"++ as it sits on the floor with me holding the gun 6 inches from the screen ... One thing I don't understand is how hard would it be to simulate CRTs natural low pass filter capabilities in modern digital TV signal conditioning circuitry! [on a different note, I managed to perform SVideo mod to my XEGS and it looks fantastic, obviously Tower Toppler due to relying almost entirely on artifacting looks "ghastly", almost black and white ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Yeah unbalanced Pokey sound is characteristic of the Electronic Sentementalitties mod. Kind of unrelated, but as I mentioned earlier, my 7800 yields "unsupported signal" on my Hauppauge USB capture. I know the chances are probably slim of it's working, but is there a possibility that plugging an S-Video to Composite filter up backwards might allow the Hauppauge to work? My 7800 is pure "Best" AV composite mod with original stock NTSC boot ROM, so no native S-Video. As far as I can tell the Pokey mix with the Best AV is loud and clear like the TIA sound itself but so far I've only tested Ball Blazer with Pokey. Sadly Albert pulled the S-Video converters from the store as I was planning on getting one with the newest homebrews but they are gone apparently. Radio Shack is overpriced IMO... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynxpro Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Looks like you've got 3 choices, bro... Option 1: Atari console ---RF--> busted VCR ---RCA--> HDMI upscaler ---HDMI--> High Definition TV. Option 2: CRT Option 3: Get an AV 7800, pre-modded from Best... What about the AV Modded 7800 outputting to a VCR or TiVo and then to the upscaler or directly to the TV? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted November 9, 2014 Author Share Posted November 9, 2014 Yeah unbalanced Pokey sound is characteristic of the Electronic Sentementalitties mod. Kind of unrelated, but as I mentioned earlier, my 7800 yields "unsupported signal" on my Hauppauge USB capture. I know the chances are probably slim of it's working, but is there a possibility that plugging an S-Video to Composite filter up backwards might allow the Hauppauge to work? My 7800 is pure "Best" AV composite mod with original stock NTSC boot ROM, so no native S-Video. As far as I can tell the Pokey mix with the Best AV is loud and clear like the TIA sound itself but so far I've only tested Ball Blazer with Pokey. Sadly Albert pulled the S-Video converters from the store as I was planning on getting one with the newest homebrews but they are gone apparently. Radio Shack is overpriced IMO... I tried these: http://www.amazon.com/Steren-251-152-S-Video-RCA-Adapter/dp/B000T5GE3S http://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-100123-Female-Adapter-Plated/dp/B001TK9WH2 with no real good results, usually when it "works" I get heavy jailbars. They both kind of work both ways, in the end if I understand correctly all they do is put a capacitor on the chroma and merge: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?25944-S-video-Vs-Composite-detection-on-TVs-Could-you-guys-do-a-small-test-with-your-TVs&p=611788&viewfull=1#post611788 Regarding Pokey and Ballblazer pay attention that Ballblazer is all Pokey, no TIA at all, so you can't judge balance, Commando is the only official dual sound game. I have not had the chance to test it on a stock RF 7800 to hear what it should sound like, but as already mentioned on the Easier Composite Mod forum a 10K on the TIA sound before mixing in Pokey sounds enough to me (there they mention a 39K or above, I tried but then TIA sound is too muffled in Commando). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 One thing I don't understand is how hard would it be to simulate CRTs natural low pass filter capabilities in modern digital TV signal conditioning circuitry! Not hard at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mitch Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Regarding Pokey and Ballblazer pay attention that Ballblazer is all Pokey, no TIA at all, so you can't judge balance, Commando is the only official dual sound game. I have not had the chance to test it on a stock RF 7800 to hear what it should sound like, but as already mentioned on the Easier Composite Mod forum a 10K on the TIA sound before mixing in Pokey sounds enough to me (there they mention a 39K or above, I tried but then TIA sound is too muffled in Commando). According to the 7800 schematic you are supposed to have a 6.8K resistor on the TIA line and an 18K resistor on the Pokey line. So a difference of 11.2K. A 10K resistor is pretty close though. Mitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 According to the 7800 schematic you are supposed to have a 6.8K resistor on the TIA line and an 18K resistor on the Pokey line. So a difference of 11.2K. A 10K resistor is pretty close though. Mitch Resistors are used to mix the sound. For instance, if source A has a 10k resistor and source B has a 20k resistor, then source B will have half as much gain as source A. I don't know the relative amplitudes of the Pokey and the TIA, but ideally you would want to adjust the mixing resistor values so that the peak amplitude is the same for both chips. In addition to the ratios which set the relative volume, too high range will result in muffled sound and too low will result in signal distortion. If the electronic sentimentality mod has weak or too strong Pokey, then the value can be adjusted. Pokey (Ball Blazer) is loud and clear on my BEST AV 7800. 7800/2600 comes in loud and clear. Xype Star Fire has an excellent title screen music track with heavy bass elements. One thing I noticed is cleaner sound and less distortion on my Best AV 7800 TIA compared to my stock RF 2600 TIA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted November 10, 2014 Author Share Posted November 10, 2014 (edited) On the video side: http://www.amazon.com/Etekcity®-Composite-S-video-Converter-Upscaler/dp/B00B2B9Z20 I bought it a few months ago to support PAL consoles (I really only have a couple) and it turns out I can feed it the 7800 Electronics Sentimentalities SVideo and no stutter (my hand made one was not that lucky, guess it's a matter of tolerance). Beside the "natural" delay due to the digital conversion and a slight blur for the upward movement in Commando, I have to say HDMI 720p is quite satisfactory even when playing Plutos .... but some jailbars are evident, also the usual suspect (Tower Toppler) is as bad as it gets for obvious reasons. I keep on mentioning it because on Ataris it is the poster child of artifacting, I don't even know why as it does not use that many colors at once to start with, compare it with Nebulus on Amiga [same game, different name] and there it's a rainbow all the way through .... too much even. Well, as I had the converter already now I am settled. Regarding the sound mixers Mitch has it right in that those are the value on the actual board (juts backward as in 6.8K on the ExtAudio [Pokey] and 18K on TIA). If you are happy with your setup then no pb, but you should really give Commando a try to see if it sounds balanced to you, I bought my repro here on AA from user santosp. Edited November 10, 2014 by phoenixdownita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 On the video side: http://www.amazon.com/Etekcity®-Composite-S-video-Converter-Upscaler/dp/B00B2B9Z20 Regarding the sound mixers Mitch has it right in that those are the value on the actual board (juts backward as in 6.8K on the ExtAudio [Pokey] and 18K on TIA). If you are happy with your setup then no pb, but you should really give Commando a try to see if it sounds balanced to you, I bought my repro here on AA from user santosp. I don't ow a commado cart, and f I'm getting a repro made with Pokey, it will be a homebrew... Does anyone know if the device in question has lag? Does it pillarbox 4:3 video? I cannot stand stretched displays and I game on a 1080p monitor with no aspect ratio options. Kind of defeats the purpose of upscaling, but is there an HDMI converter available that does 480p??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mitch Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Regarding the sound mixers Mitch has it right in that those are the value on the actual board (juts backward as in 6.8K on the ExtAudio [Pokey] and 18K on TIA). If you are happy with your setup then no pb, but you should really give Commando a try to see if it sounds balanced to you, I bought my repro here on AA from user santosp. Oops, you're right. I was in too big of a hurry when I was typing that post Mitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 (edited) I did the Powerpak audio mod on my NES. Bunnyboy of RetroUSB recommended a 47k inline resistor. Instead used a 10k audio taper pot with one pole connected to the cart output, the other pole connected to Ground, and the center pin connected to the input mixer on the console. It works great. Balanced audio is about the 2/3 position when listening to say the Japanese Castlevania III sountrack on the PowerPak. Why did I bring this up? If you want to totally tweak the audio circuit to your preferences, add trip pots to the circuit... Edited November 10, 2014 by stardust4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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