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The two button joystick controversy?


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#1 kiwilove OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 5, 2015 4:26 PM

For the Atari 800 etc - having the one joystick button was always severely limiting.

Wouldn't it be nice if 2 buttons were available - and programmers made use of it?

 

The quickest way I'll guess - is to use an existing controller which just plugs in - and that would be

a Sega Genesis/MegaDrive controller.

Are players so miserly that they simply can't be bothered to order a controller - which I'll guess are

easily available via the Internet?  Some people will have this controller already ...?

 

Is it too much to ask - that this option to be available at the start of the game - so that you can choose

which type of controller to use?

 

This would make a MegaMan styled game to be possible - and to be playable - and make platform games

so much easier - when they feature jump and shoot - and for straight platform games - maybe to have an

extra type of jump available?

 

I'll guess this kind of discussion has probably taken place in a past thread?

 

A good reason for the popularity of the NES - would be it's two button controller as standard.

 

Harvey



#2 Justin Payne OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 5, 2015 4:37 PM

Well, seems to me that a 6 button joypad is an option since two joysticks could be used. The 800 has 4 ports so two joypads could be used at once. I think it would be worth creating if someone would want to code for it.

#3 Bryan OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 5, 2015 8:21 PM

It would be easy to make a stick use the paddle inputs as buttons, but at this point it's a little late.



#4 MrFish OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 5, 2015 10:00 PM

For the Atari 800 etc - having the one joystick button was always severely limiting.

Wouldn't it be nice if 2 buttons were available - and programmers made use of it?

 

The quickest way I'll guess - is to use an existing controller which just plugs in - and that would be

a Sega Genesis/MegaDrive controller.

Are players so miserly that they simply can't be bothered to order a controller - which I'll guess are

easily available via the Internet?  Some people will have this controller already ...?

 

Is it too much to ask - that this option to be available at the start of the game - so that you can choose

which type of controller to use?

 

This would make a MegaMan styled game to be possible - and to be playable - and make platform games

so much easier - when they feature jump and shoot - and for straight platform games - maybe to have an

extra type of jump available?

 

I'll guess this kind of discussion has probably taken place in a past thread?

 

A good reason for the popularity of the NES - would be it's two button controller as standard.

 

I don't think people would complain about buying a Sega controller if a worthy game was created requiring one. I bought several myself a few years back for the express purpose of eventually programming games to use them, or in case anyone else did. There are a few out there.

 

I'd say the NES was more popular because if it's quality of games, and advancement of graphics and sound over the previous console generations, more so than just for having an extra button available on the controller. It was a step up though, and was a feature that rounded out the system. I also think that a D-Pad was an improvement, although I think more so because it lent itself to the type of games on the system, or it could be that the programming was in part done around the dynamics of the controller. In many cases though, a joystick is much preferable, and in fact I often prefer a keyboard, if it has a dedicated set of logically arranged keys as on a PC. It all depends on the game.



#5 CharlieChaplin OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 6, 2015 6:47 AM

Well,

 

Gem Drop does this already. It works with a standard Atari joystick and/or a Sega joypad (configurable in the start screen). If you use the Sega joypad you have two fire-buttons available for the game...

 

http://a8.fandal.cz/...p?files_id=4057

 

By the way, my prefered Sega joypad (third party!) has 8 fire buttons (6 fire buttons A, B, C, X, Y, Z and two shoulder buttons). I do not need all 8 fire-buttons, but really like the shoulder-buttons...


Edited by CharlieChaplin, Tue Jan 6, 2015 6:48 AM.


#6 MrFish OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 6, 2015 6:57 AM

There are a few out there.

 

I guess I should clarify. When I said "a few out there", I meant a few games, not a few controllers. I imagine quite a few people have Sega controllers simply because they're favorable to use in some cases -- or many cases depending on your preference -- regardless of whether or not the second button has a use or not.



#7 ricortes OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 6, 2015 11:40 AM

Drift, there is only one reason, slower, not to use the same scheme of serially reading the J/S ports ~the same way the NES does. Data stream could be anything so 16 bits could give you 64k combinations.

Doing it that way I think you could have one clock bit and 3 data bits<w/o trigger or paddle> so an XL/XE would be able to have six J/S delivering 64k combinations each.

Think of the MPP J/S modem except instead of reading the bits based on timing, you use a clock bit like an SD card. Limit on how fast you could read it would be the maximum rate you could drive the clock line.

#8 MrFish OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 6, 2015 7:20 PM

A good reason for the popularity of the NES - would be it's two button controller as standard.

 

You also have to add that the NES controllers had a PAUSE and START button, which were no small addition to the overall functionality. With that it mind, it would be nice to have even a few more buttons for other game selection/control functions on the Ataris.


Edited by MrFish, Tue Jan 6, 2015 7:39 PM.


#9 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 6, 2015 7:50 PM

How does that Sega Genesis read 6 fire button + start? Wonder if that trick someone used for that multi-joy interface will work by multiplexing the joystick line. I know the other fire buttons on those multi fire button controllers sends a single through the paddle or light pen lines. What would happen if you internally connected those lines on the Pokey chip to the unused Trig2 + Trig3 lines on the Antic chip? When Atari eliminated the 2 other joystick ports, PORTB got re-purposed for switching Basic On/Off, RAM under OS, 130XE bank switching, etc. But Trig2 + Trig3 remain unused.



#10 Shawn Jefferson OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 6, 2015 10:32 PM

Trig3 is used for the cartridge interlock on the XL/XE is it not?

Edit: Yep...

From Mapping:

1018 3FA GINTLK

Cartridge interlock register; the complement of BASICF, above.
It reads 1 when an external cartridge is installed, 0 when not
(or ROM BASIC is in use). The value of TRIG3 (53267; $D103) is
loaded here by the OS initialization routine. If at any time, the
external cartridge is pulled, the system will crash.

Edited by Shawn Jefferson, Tue Jan 6, 2015 10:34 PM.


#11 Synthpopalooza OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:05 PM

My Tetricize game also uses the Sega pad, the buttons can be used to rotate your piece left or right.

 

http://gury.atari8.i..._games/6231.php



#12 Creature XL OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:06 AM

For the Atari 800 etc - having the one joystick button was always severely limiting.

Wouldn't it be nice if 2 buttons were available - and programmers made use of it?

 

The quickest way I'll guess - is to use an existing controller which just plugs in - and that would be

a Sega Genesis/MegaDrive controller.

Are players so miserly that they simply can't be bothered to order a controller - which I'll guess are

easily available via the Internet?  Some people will have this controller already ...?

 

Is it too much to ask - that this option to be available at the start of the game - so that you can choose

which type of controller to use?

 

This would make a MegaMan styled game to be possible - and to be playable - and make platform games

so much easier - when they feature jump and shoot - and for straight platform games - maybe to have an

extra type of jump available?

 

I'll guess this kind of discussion has probably taken place in a past thread?

 

A good reason for the popularity of the NES - would be it's two button controller as standard.

 

Harvey

 

I am thinking of using 2 buttons in games for a long time. Honestly, the reason why the player in "ditch" cannot shoot is that I wanted to use the fire button for "jump".

Making the control scheme selectable is not always a good solution, as it would hinder the design of the gameplay as one would always have to keep in mind that it must be playable with one button as well.

Take "ditch". Would it have the option to play it with one button (for shooting) and use "up" for jump, there would be the usual complains: "I don't like up for jump". Secondly, I am not sure if the special moves would be working with "up for jump". And sliding would be "diagonal down"? Falling thru tiles wouldn't be possible at all...

 

For games which use "SPACE" for smart bombs or other stuff using a 2nd button would of course be possible to be selectable. ( <- sorry for grammar on that sentence :) )



#13 Rybags OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:58 AM

Trig2 is also reassigned - used for keyboard sense on XEGS.

 

Best way to have more buttons is probably just use the POTs - wouldn't it be possible to have multiple extra buttons per pot by means of a selective resistor ladder?



#14 ricortes OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:34 PM

More drift :)

 

As I am reading this thread, I a scrolling it down with a two button mouse with scroll wheel. Aside from the low resolution of our screens which limits the amount of information that can go on them both graphically and in the form of text, 3 button mouse with scroll wheel would be trivial in software, a bit more complicated from a hardware standpoint. Just use the driving controller/trackball scheme for X-Y and paddle + leftover bits for buttons.

 

But then I don't think anyone has ever written a serial mouse driver either. IIRC it is just something like 9600 BAUD with the X-Y direction and velocity + button status encoded in a byte or two.

 

It isn't for a lack of hardware or ability. There just aren't enough compelling reasons to do it. Usually the hardware guys are not the game coder guys and most of the game coders seem to be satisfied working within the constraints of our available joy sticks. 






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