The F18A is it now time?

[Omega-TI]

This poll is to find out if the majority of TI users here at Atari Age already have and use the F18A.

If so, it would then appear that user base would be big enough to justify writing programs exclusively for it. Would any users out there have any objections to new programs being written just for use with that device, like the Geneve has it's own programs? Some examples of programs would be like an 80 column version of a program similar to DM2K or an updated and improved program like BOOT, of course there are others too, but you get the point.

[+InsaneMultitasker]

For reference, 80 column programs written for the F18A could be compatible and usable with the Geneve or a TI with 80 column card, since the basic 80 column mode of the F18A is compatible. It is the F18A-specific enhancements that will not run on the other machines.

[matthew180]

I will have the new V1.6 firmware out soon, so this would be a good time to start digging into it.

[Omega-TI]

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised (as of now) it looks like over 75% of the people here have F18A's installed!

I guess it's only a matter of time before the 80 column utilities start rolling out. I also have to wonder what Rasmus has up his sleeve for the new 1.6 firmware.

[Iwantgames:)]

I <3 my F18A, seeing more programs & games come out that take advantage of it would be sweet

[jstimson]

I have the original release F18A (with the sprite bug) that I would need to mail back to have updated. Was going to do that soon, but with 1.6 coming up (with what features?) I'll hold off.

[briantw]

I don't have an F18A, but how could I object to anyone writing software for it? It's your hobby and your passion, so create away! You're not going to make money off of it, so I appreciate any new contribution to the community, whether I can use it or not.

 

The cons of the F18A are, for me, as follows:

• VGA. This is a deprecated analogue format. It's time for HDMI.
• Has a different aspect ratio, both from the 60Hz and from the 50Hz console.
• F18A is 60Hz-only. Means, if you currently have a European console, your TI invaders will run 20% faster (just like an American one), and you have no way of doing anything about that. This is not a biggie, but it's worth noting.
• This is a biggie: F18A seems to require holes to be cut in your beloved classic console. Eeek!
• It's damned expensive.

I might still like one to play with, but, then again, I was playing with Ed Swartz's V9t9 emulator back in '96, using 320x240 VGA output, so I know what a clear VGA signal looks like on a CRT, along with its slightly-off aspect ratio. The F18A is still a great bit of genius, and I'm thankful for all contributions to the community, even if the F18A wasn't developed only with us TIers in mind--the MSX community is a big benefactor

[Omega-TI]

Believe it or not, in the past there have been a few non-users of the device that objected for various reasons.

 

I agree with you, as a hobby/passion, I doubt anyone here is expecting to get rich off the TI community with the exception of a few eBait re-sellers.

 

I find a lot of your cons on the device are pros from my perspective, funny how that works out sometimes.

 

Yes, VGA is an older format, almost as old as the TI itself but I don’t think anyone here is considering kicking the TI to the curb. To me VGA it better than that muddy and lossy composite signal! What’s even worse is a composite signal that’s been converted to an even more degraded RF signal… eeeech! I’ll take VGA any day of the week, because in the end, it’s the results that count, at least to me.

 

 

The aspect ratio seems okay to me, I have no issues with it, so I can’t comment on that, besides it could also be a PAL/NTSC issue for all I know.

 

Interestingly enough, your biggest con is my largest plus. I know some people do not want to modify or desecrate a sacred object like the TI, but for me, and it seems the majority of the users here, not so much… at least on ONE of their many consoles.

 

By having it in the console itself, more people can enjoy the love, even those that have not yet upgraded to a P-Box, or those who plan to go the Nano-PEB route instead. For me, since it requires no space in the P-Box, I have an extra slot for a future TI toy!

 

As for being expensive, location and shipping I’m sure has a lot to do with that! I’m blessed to live in the F18A’s country of origin, so I did not have the experience of getting hosed on international shipping and insurance rates, but I can relate after purchasing an item from Poland recently.

[+Ksarul]

Actually, the F18A benefits a lot more than the TI-99 and MSX communities. It also works with Tomy Tutors (and the Japanese Pyuutas--with the benefit of changing them from the Japanese NTSC format to VGA for use in the US), the Powertran Cortex (again with a video format bonus for those of us in the US that have one), the Coleco Adam, and several others that used the TMS9918A/TMS9929A VDP chips. I find that to be a very good thing. . .and I bought three from the initial run to ensure that the product came to fruition.

[matthew180]

I have the original release F18A (with the sprite bug) that I would need to mail back to have updated. Was going to do that soon, but with 1.6 coming up (with what features?) I'll hold off.

There is an in-system update available for the 99/4A with a CF7/nanoPEB. You can get the V1.5 update program and instructions in the F18A thread here on the forum.

 

As for V1.6, it has some hefty changes based on feedback from Rasmus (the most prolific user of the F18A). I gutted some unused features to make room for others. V1.6 will be the final supported feature set with the only possible updates being for bugs. I will be posting the V1.6 update soon with a list of the changes. However, the biggest change is the addition of a second independent Tile Layer.

[matthew180]

I find that to be a very good thing. . .and I bought three from the initial run to ensure that the product came to fruition.

And I really appreciate your support! Thank you.

[jstimson]

There is an in-system update available for the 99/4A with a CF7/nanoPEB. You can get the V1.5 update program and instructions in the F18A thread here on the forum.

 

 

Unfortunately I don't have a CF7 or nanoPEB so am unable to do an in-system update. I do have a fully tricked-out PEB but my Horizon ramdisk isn't big enough to hold the update files.

 

This would also be the only reason I would need a CF7/nanoPEB since I get along fine in all other regards without it. So for now I'll wait until 1.6 is ready and then send my F18A into you for update.

[matthew180]

I don't have an F18A, but how could I object to anyone writing software for it? It's your hobby and your passion, so create away! You're not going to make money off of it, so I appreciate any new contribution to the community, whether I can use it or not.

 

The cons of the F18A are, for me, as follows:

• VGA. This is a deprecated analogue format. It's time for HDMI.

You mention cost below as a con, yet list HDMI here as a requirement. Those are contradictions. You are taking the perspective that just because modern hardware has HDMI ports that is must be cheap and easy to do. If you are a company with electrical engineers and plan to make a few million units, then yes, you will have HDMI. HDMI is a very complicated high-speed serial device and has other legal issues:

 

WikiPedia:

"HDMI standard is classified as proprietary hardware as the interface is controlled by the proprietor under patents and trade-secret protection and, while the mission of HDMI Forum Inc. which owns the specification is to be an open trade association, does require users of HDMI to license the technology and pay royalties for its use."

 

Are you willing to pay the extra cost for me to license HDMI? If I were going to use something other than VGA, it would be DisplayPort. However, VGA is not going away as soon as people think it is. Computer monitors (I don't care about TVs) still have VGA inputs, and the laptop I bought 3 months ago still has a VGA output. Also, as long as you have a computer monitor made in the last 30 years, you will have a VGA input available to you.

 

• Has a different aspect ratio, both from the 60Hz and from the 50Hz console.

 

You don't have an F18A so please don't put out mis-information like this. The 9918A displays square pixels on a 3x4 aspect display. The F18A generates a video signal with a 3x4 aspect and produces an output image with borders to keep the display clean on LCD monitors. The F18A does not stretch the display in any way. 256x192 and 640x480 are both 1.333 aspect ratios.

 

 

• F18A is 60Hz-only. Means, if you currently have a European console, your TI invaders will run 20% faster (just like an American one), and you have no way of doing anything about that. This is not a biggie, but it's worth noting.

 

This is true, but you could also argue that the game was meant to be run at 60Hz and only lazy programming caused it to play slower on PAL systems. This is not a side effect of the F18A. You will have the same experience if you play on a NTSC 9918A/9928. When a game is bound to the refresh rate, there is nothing the F18A can do about it. The interrupt is tied to VSYNC, and the F18A is generating standard VGA to drive a computer monitor which does not suffer from the differences in television standards.

 

 

• This is a biggie: F18A seems to require holes to be cut in your beloved classic console. Eeek!

 

That depends on if you want to strain-relief the video connector. If you don't care about the F18A being ripped out of the socket when you accidentally pull to hard on the cable, then you don't have to make any holes. I would have preferred to use the original video port, but that was not physically possible. The VGA pig-tail was one of the biggest pains in the ass when designing the board and figuring out how to get the video signals out of the computer.

 

Adding a connector to the back of the system is not a big deal for most people. If it is a big deal to you, then I have a pile of beat-to-hell 99/4A's that would probably make you cry. I don't know how people manage to destroy these systems so completely, but used and abused systems are pretty easy to come by.

 

 

• It's damned expensive.

 

Comments like this always bother me a lot, but I suppose that's may problem. My response to you would be, go try to make the same thing for less. A full-blown *product*, complete with some instructions, packaging, etc. that you can ship to a non-technical person who can just plug it in and have it work. Then limit your total world-wide customer base to about 250. Oh, and spend a year of your personal time making it.

 

This is the same perception you have with the HDMI, that technology is a cheap commodity just because big companies can pump out cheap stuff. That is true, and you can get more technology for less money in other products like the Raspberry PI and such. If I could sell 50,000 F18As then they would be cheaper. Then again, I don't actually *WANT* to sell *ANY* F18As. I made the F18A for myself, however I do like the 99/4A community and figured most people would not be able to build one themselves. So I bit the bullet and produced them. If you are looking for cheap hardware then I suggest you not have classic computers as a hobby.

 

I might still like one to play with, but, then again, I was playing with Ed Swartz's V9t9 emulator back in '96, using 320x240 VGA output, so I know what a clear VGA signal looks like on a CRT, along with its slightly-off aspect ratio.

I would argue that these experiences are not the same thing. The F18A does not have an aspect ratio problem, and it does offer advantages over the original 9918A that emulators do not provide, yet users benefit from (for example, all 32-sprits visible on a single scan line, etc.) Rasums also provides games that take advantage of some of the F18A's enhanced features if you have one installed.

 

320x240 is a 3x4 aspect, however if the emulator tried to stretch 256x192 into 320x240, then yes, it would be a strange aspect. The F18A *does not* do that.

 

The F18A is still a great bit of genius, and I'm thankful for all contributions to the community,

Thank you for the comment.

 

... even if the F18A wasn't developed only with us TIers in mind--the MSX community is a big benefactor

I'm wondering how you would know what I had in mind when I was working on the F18A? I actually did not have any community other than the 99/4A in mind when I developed the F18A. The 99/4A community is my home. The pin-compatibility was simply a design side-effect and means that the F18A can be used in any 9918A compatible system, but I have found that most of the units have gone to 99/4A users.

 

MSX users don't seem to care, some CV users really like them but most seem put-off by the F18A (not sure why). But, to each their own. I'm not out to convert every 9918A system to the F18A, I simply wanted to share something I made that I thought was pretty cool and helped bring new life to my old computer.

[+OLD CS1]

The cons of the F18A are, for me, as follows:

• VGA. This is a deprecated analogue format. It's time for HDMI.

...

• It's damned expensive.

 

I would not call VGA deprecated just yet as there are still plenty of new monitors on the market with SVGA inputs, as well as TVs and projectors. Sure, the newest 60" HD or 4K may not have SVGA input but, seriously, putting a retro console on one of those is just insane. As for the price, sure it is a little pricey and may need its own budget but the benefits versus the cost (value) are well balanced.

 

That said, I would like to see DVI-I (combination of SVGA and DVI-D) rather than HDMI if I had my choice. If only because that would give us both analog and digital options, and you would still be able to use it with HDMI with a simple adapter as DVI-D and HDMI share protocols.

[briantw]

Hi Matthew

 

I can understand you taking this so personally, having designed the product. However, just because you designed it, and I applaud the contribution, don't close your mind to rational and objective constructive criticism. Your hardware is great, and I praised it. Of course it has flaws; there is no perfect solution, nor can there ever be. That doesn't mean that you have to get all wound-licky about it and take this discussion into a downward spiral. My comments were NOT personal in nature or critical of your personally, so perhaps you might stick to the hardware / software discussion and not attack others' integrity. I'm really sorry you chose that route. To rebut:

 

Everything I said in my post, I stand by. My opinions remain my opinions, and I have a right to them. Then there are the facts, which are not my facts or your facts, but the facts. A fact can either be correct or incorrect, but nothing in your response indicates that I got any of the facts wrong.

 

You mention cost below as a con, yet list HDMI here as a requirement. Those are contradictions.

No, they aren't. Firstly, I never said that HDMI is a requirement, not least from your product. I said "it's time for HDMI." Meaning that, in my opinion, knowing that VGA is now deprecated, HDMI is where home video on TVs is going (yes, I know, often different with computer monitors, but cheap HDMI adapters exist for those that don't have, and it's a neat way of killing two birds with one stone). As for cost, while I am not excessively concerned with what a one-off that I make for myself might cost, or how many tens of hours it might take me, but when I'm buying a complete product without any of the fun of designing it and putting it together, I am more sensitive to pricing. In any event, I'm pretty sure that, purely as a "for fun" project, one could achieve an HDMI-out at a lower cost. I'm talking hardware cost alone, mind you, not overheads or time or any of that boring stuff. It's a labour of love; I don't care how long it takes me.

 

Secondly, not EVERY means of achieving HDMI means starting from scratch with the licencing process. I won't go into detail, as this thread is not the place for it, but suffice it to say that microcontroller hardware with pre-licenced HDMI exists. It may not fit as neatly into the console as you've managed to achieve (may have to be an external box) but I'm just saying that options exist.

 

You are taking the perspective that just because modern hardware has HDMI ports that is must be cheap and easy to do.

No, I am not. You are reading into that for yourself. I never stated that it was cheap or easy, but you are assuming that I think that way. Please put the assumptions aside, as not everyone besides you is incapable of a rational thought. I am aware of the licencing costs if you are building up from scratch. I am also aware of all of the references, so please, don't peg me as an ignoramus.

 

Are you willing to pay the extra cost for me to license HDMI?

For *you* to licence HDMI? I never said anything about you, so I don't know why you're drawing yourself into the discussion on that point. I discussed an idea, not a specific person. You are not the only personal capable of designing hardware. I already read the reasons why you chose not to go that route, on your website. However, there is a sizeable community out there, including yours truly, who dabble in hardware projects, so I didn't direct anything at you or ask anything of you. I didn't even know you took a close interest in this forum.

 

You don't have an F18A so please don't put out mis-information like this. The 9918A displays square pixels on a 3x4 aspect display.

What I said is not misinformation, so please don't put out that misinformation. Yes, the F18A DOES output square pixels on a 4:3 display (we usually put the horizontal figure first, so forgive me if I'm not saying "3x4"), and I am aware of this, even without owning one, as there're these things called reading and comprehension that lots of people are able to do. I did research your product, and the cons were the reasons I don't have one (yet--not that you care, but I still wouldn't mind one to play with). Again, your ego aside, I did not make a point of any of these cons in any kind of mean-spirited way--them's just the facts, and a couple of opinions.

 

Unfortunately, regarding aspect ratios, what you fail to note here is that the TI came in at least two different variants: 60Hz NTSC, and 50Hz component (if there ever was a 60Hz component version based on the TMS9928, I'm not aware of it). The TMS9918 addressed 192 horizontal lines, as we both know and can agree on. However, neither NTSC nor PAL can work with 192 lines. What Texas Instruments did to solve this was to add a border area to the top and bottom of the image, which meant a number of extra lines were squeezed in above and below the actual addressable image, changing the aspect ratio. However, they also added a few pixels of border to the left and right of the image to correct for this, which you are also aware of. The exact number of horizontal pixels and vertical lines added is in the datasheet, which I don't have in front of me right now, but I would suspect that you would have to have consulted the datasheet in designing the F18A. The effect of this 'making it fit' wasn't as noticeable in 60Hz, since they only had to get the 192 addressable pixel rows to fit into a full 262.5-line NTSC field. It may have been slightly off, but not by much, depending on your TV or monitor. However, don't forget the 50Hz world, which is where I live. In Europe, Australia, South Africa, etc., they had to take those 192 pixel rows and get them to map onto a 312.5-line field, and this meant a SIGNIFICANT number of extra lines, and the pixels are very definitely NOT square here. Draw a circle and it comes out as an ellipse.

 

The F18A, like all emulators I've seen, does indeed output square pixels, but, since the TI didn't, I noted my concern about this only because I'm a fan of being as faithful to the original as possible, and I want the same aspect ratio as the original to be a possibility. Once again, this is NOT a personal attack on you, so it wasn't necessary to come at my throat for stating a fact: My TI doesn't have square pixels, while the F18A does. I can predict you coming at me with a "well, if you want to be faithful to the original, why upgrade?" Well, I like my upgrades to improve the things they're there to improve, while leaving the rest alone.

 

This is true, but you could also argue that the game was meant to be run at 60Hz and only lazy programming caused it to play slower on PAL systems. This is not a side effect of the F18A.

A lot of that "lazy programming" took place before the 50Hz console even existed. I never said it was a side effect of the F18A, mate. I said that certain original hardware did X, and the F18A is not able to replicate X, changing the experience somewhat. You, yourself, have made it clear in a caveat that a 50Hz mode is not available on the F18A. This means that you are well aware that a 50Hz model exists, and that you are unable to reproduce it, and that some people may want it, and that they should be warned that the product doesn't do it.

 

You will have the same experience if you play on a NTSC 9918A/9928. When a game is bound to the refresh rate, there is nothing the F18A can do about it. The interrupt is tied to VSYNC, and the F18A is generating standard VGA to drive a computer monitor which does not suffer from the differences in television standards.

Yes, I am aware of all of that. I do not hold you personally responsible for the fact that VGA may not have a 50Hz mode. (However, it would not be impossible for some chip to still put out a 50Hz interrupt to the TI, while putting a 60Hz signal out to the VGA, but I'm not asking you for that.) You designed a great product and you don't have to get upset just because it can't meet everyone's desires. As a classic computer enthusiast, I like a lot of what goes with upgrading to be as faithful to the original as possible. For example, scanlines in emulators, faithful aspect ratios, and yes, a 50Hz mode if I feel I want it.

 

That depends on if you want to strain-relief the video connector. If you don't care about the F18A being ripped out of the socket when you accidentally pull to hard on the cable, then you don't have to make any holes. I would have preferred to use the original video port, but that was not physically possible. The VGA pig-tail was one of the biggest pains in the ass when designing the board and figuring out how to get the video signals out of the computer.

Ah, thank goodness I don't have to disagree with anything in that paragraph. I would have loved it if it could have just used the 6-pin (or 5-pin) DIN on the back. Yes, if I owned an F18A, I would use it without the strain relief, but I'd have to watch it carefully when moving the console. I'm curious as to why it was not possible to go out via the DIN connector. I know of a couple of good reasons, having played with the video section of the TI quite a bit, even replicating the entire VDP circuitry on external stripboard and driving it from a different microcontroller: Was it because of the possibly bandwidth-reducing circuitry between the composite out on the chip and the pinout on the connector, or perhaps because there were no pins to handle sync (although you could always have used composite sync-on-green, I suppose, even if that's not compatible with all monitors, so you'd have to have a sync splitter externally)?

 

Adding a connector to the back of the system is not a big deal for most people. If it is a big deal to you, then I have a pile of beat-to-hell 99/4A's that would probably make you cry. I don't know how people manage to destroy these systems so completely, but used and abused systems are pretty easy to come by.

I know, I know. I was a kid once, too. I have a motherboard that's been in the microwave and a console where the brushed aluminium was polished like a mirror. I made lots of mods when I was younger. Reset switch, extra 9-pin D Sub for an external box with buttons on it, a pause ("HOLD") switch, load interrupt, etc. etc. However, I regret having made those, in retrospect. Mind you, I don't think it's such a big deal that it needs to be punishable by law, but I'm just stating a preference here. For me, classic computing is sometimes also about standing back and just looking at your computer, after having polished it up and hidden all the wires, and just admiring once in a while. The hardware matters. If it didn't, we could just stick to emulators. Granted, that extra VGA connector is at the back, but you get my point, I hope.

 

Comments like this always bother me a lot,

I noticed.

 

but I suppose that's may problem.

Well, it's my problem too, in as much as I don't appreciate my integrity or intelligence attacked, just because you have misinterpreted both the letter and the spirit of my comments.

 

My response to you would be, go try to make the same thing for less. A full-blown *product*, complete with some instructions, packaging, etc. that you can ship to a non-technical person who can just plug it in and have it work. Then limit your total world-wide customer base to about 250. Oh, and spend a year of your personal time making it.

Look man, I was addressing the hardware, and the hardware alone. Not the packaging, not the shipping, no the ease-of-use. Not the creator or his or her motives, either. For me personally, it doesn't have to be easy to use or a "full-blown *product*". I'm not making wishes on behalf of the planet. I'm saying where there is room for improvement, in my opinion. I would like to see digital video output on my TI, and HDMI seems to be the most widely supported option. Might even be able to get a Mini HDMI connector to fit where the the current 6-pin (or 5-pin) DIN sits. That way, it's a reversible mod, for anyone who cares (count me as one, even if the only one).

 

Going on the defensive and telling someone who notes some possible evolution for a product to go and do it themselves, then, is not constructive: Maybe they will, maybe they won't, maybe they can, maybe they can't, but it misses the point entirely, whether you are a hardware designer, a landscaper or a retail outlet.

 

This is the same perception you have with the HDMI, that technology is a cheap commodity just because big companies can pump out cheap stuff.

I've covered this above, but no, that's not my perception. Your condescension merely assumes that I've never designed or put out a product in my life. It's merely your perception of what my perception is, perhaps based on previous run-ins with other people regarding your product.

 

Then again, I don't actually *WANT* to sell *ANY* F18As. I made the F18A for myself, however I do like the 99/4A community and figured most people would not be able to build one themselves. So I bit the bullet and produced them. If you are looking for cheap hardware then I suggest you not have classic computers as a hobby.

Hahaha. I agree with you on the first part. What I make for myself, I don't really care what it costs. And I'd be unlikely to go into mass production. But if someone asked, I'd still be willing to put one together for them. However, I still thought the F18A was expensive, just from a component point of view. It seems you may have assumed that that was a comment on your character, but no, it is not. I didn't say you were ripping anyone off, or that I don't appreciate that the product exists and is appreciated by many who use it. I just said it was costly, to me, for what it does.

 

I would argue that these experiences are not the same thing. The F18A does not have an aspect ratio problem, and it does offer advantages over the original 9918A that emulators do not provide, yet users benefit from (for example, all 32-sprits visible on a single scan line, etc.) Rasums also provides games that take advantage of some of the F18A's enhanced features if you have one installed.

The F18A could arguably be thought of as having an aspect ratio problem in that it can't match the aspect ratio of my TI, but I never phrased it that way, after all, did I? I said it puts out a different aspect ratio to my TI (which, also arguably, does have the problem), and therein lies the problem. An emulator can also put out a perfect 4:3 square-pixel image, but, I mean, so can my PC, with 16 million colours at 1920x1080, and that's not the point of me tinkering with my TI. It's a simple tweak for an emulator to put out 32 sprites on a line, in fact, I seem to recall that V9t9, back in the 90s, already had an option whether to replicate the 5-sprite "bug" or ignore it, as well as 50Hz and 60Hz options. It was a low-res 320x240-mode emulator, though, so it couldn't do aspect ratio fixes, antialising, scan lines, or any of that fancy "retro" stuff that MAME and MESS can do nowadays.

 

Bottom line is I don't really want my TI's output to look like an emulator, so that's why I mentioned the aspect ratio differences and the lack of 50Hz. This is not a deal-breaker, just a 'nice-to-have'.

 

320x240 is a 3x4 aspect

I'd argue that it's a 4:3 aspect ratio...

 

, however if the emulator tried to stretch 256x192 into 320x240, then yes, it would be a strange aspect.

Well, no. That's not what aspect ratio means. Both 320x240 and 256x192 are 4x3, so stretching the latter into the former will not change the aspect ratio at all - both will continue to have square pixels. I'm not suggesting that you should do that, as it will destroy the original border areas, but 4:3 stretched to a larger 4:3 remains 4:3 - no "strange aspect".

 

The F18A *does not* do that.

I also know that the F18A *does not* do that, and I never suggested that it should, or that it does. You do need to maintain some of the original background border color if you don't want your pixels pushing right up against the edge of the screen, or even beyond.

 

I'm wondering how you would know what I had in mind when I was working on the F18A? I actually did not have any community other than the 99/4A in mind when I developed the F18A.

I didn't know explicitly which community the product was aimed at, that's why I said "even if", instead of "even though." "If" meaning the possibility exists that...

 

The 99/4A community is my home.

I didn't know that, but great - mine too. I've had TIs since 1984.

 

MSX users don't seem to care, some CV users really like them but most seem put-off by the F18A (not sure why). But, to each their own. I'm not out to convert every 9918A system to the F18A, I simply wanted to share something I made that I thought was pretty cool and helped bring new life to my old computer.

Obviously it's very cool, and, considering how I praised it for existing in the first place, I don't know why you would have taken a discussion about what I consider its shortcomings so personally. I didn't even come to your website to address it to you personally, I was answering a poll here on this thread, for the benefit of those asking and those interested.

 

The world will not end because the F18A cannot match my TI's aspect ratio, that it can't do 50Hz or that it outputs VGA when I'd like HDMI, or that I thought it was a little costly for what it does. I was asked for my perspective by the OP, and I gave it.

[briantw]

Yes, VGA is an older format, almost as old as the TI itself but I dont think anyone here is considering kicking the TI to the curb.

Indeed, but as long as we're talking upgrades, why not go digital in a digital age?

 

To me VGA it better than that muddy and lossy composite signal! Whats even worse is a composite signal thats been converted to an even more degraded RF signal eeeech! Ill take VGA any day of the week, because in the end, its the results that count, at least to me.

Obviously, so we have no disagreement here. You're comparing VGA to lower-quality signals, while I'm saying why not go even higher quality in 2015. I'm thinking it's time we, in the TI community, had HDMI out, certainly not suggesting going back to RF!

 

The aspect ratio seems okay to me, I have no issues with it, so I cant comment on that, besides it could also be a PAL/NTSC issue for all I know.

The aspect ratio is considerably different on the PAL console, but even then, with people stretching their TI output to fill their 16:9 displays (horrors!), I acknowledge that most people couldn't give a hoot about aspect ratios. I'd imagine the aspect ratio difference between the F18A and your NTSC console is negligible, but still there. I've ordered some TMS9918A chips from China, and, if they ever get here, I'll be able to make proper comparisons between the TMS9918 and TMS9929s' aspect ratios!

 

Interestingly enough, your biggest con is my largest plus. I know some people do not want to modify or desecrate a sacred object like the TI, but for me, and it seems the majority of the users here, not so much at least on ONE of their many consoles.

 

By having it in the console itself, more people can enjoy the love, even those that have not yet upgraded to a P-Box, or those who plan to go the Nano-PEB route instead. For me, since it requires no space in the P-Box, I have an extra slot for a future TI toy!

I don't think making an irreversible mod is ever a pro, not that you must go out and get a PEB or use up an extra slot in it. There are other ways of achieving the same outcomes. It's just, for me, any time you have to drill a hole in your Model-T Ford, it's a decision not to be taken lightly. But again, that's just me and my opinion!

 

As for being expensive, location and shipping Im sure has a lot to do with that! Im blessed to live in the F18As country of origin, so I did not have the experience of getting hosed on international shipping and insurance rates, but I can relate after purchasing an item from Poland recently.

I don't think shipping was the largest concern for me, last time I checked. Yes, shipping a PEB will cost you enough to make you fall off your stool, but it's not too bad as far as smaller hardware and components goes. It was just the cost of the hardware itself, for what it does. $78 to make my TI look like an emulator. That doesn't mean I'll *never* have one, it is a cool and interesting product, it's just that, you know, $$$.

[briantw]

I would not call VGA deprecated just yet as there are still plenty of new monitors on the market with SVGA inputs, as well as TVs and projectors.

Agreed, but we can see VGA is going away in future. It's an 80s technology, and, just for fun if nothing else, I'd like to see a digital video output.

 

Sure, the newest 60" HD or 4K may not have SVGA input but, seriously, putting a retro console on one of those is just insane.

I have done that, so, I apologise for my insanity. Okay, actually it was 55" 2K, so hopefully I can pass for at least marginally sane.

 

As for the price, sure it is a little pricey and may need its own budget but the benefits versus the cost (value) are well balanced.

Well... I respect your calculation, but I didn't think $78 do make my TI put out an image identical to an emulator I was using almost 20 years ago was that good a value. It may be one of those things that, once you have it in your hands, takes on a whole new value, though. Sometimes things are much cooler when they're yours!

 

That said, I would like to see DVI-I (combination of SVGA and DVI-D) rather than HDMI if I had my choice. If only because that would give us both analog and digital options, and you would still be able to use it with HDMI with a simple adapter as DVI-D and HDMI share protocols.

Yes please! Also a great idea. I'm wondering, though, what that would mean in terms of number of wires you'd need to bring out when compared with digital-only. SVGA will require at least three lines (excluding ground) to achieve, but I'm not sure about the DVI-D part.

[Omega-TI]

Personally, I think the F18A (in the TI world) is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's the number #1 Modification for the TI, which pretty much speaks for itself. I love it so much I even made a blog entry for about it. I'll be up front an honest though, I'm biased as hell in the F18A's favor and I personally recommend it to EVERYONE who wants decent video, or has developed a video fault in their console, or wants to run with current hardware like a flat screen, or...

 

Now with the sheer quantity of cheap and available monitors and compatibility with current devices, I don't personally see the point in changing just for changes sake. The thing works, and it works great.

 

On the subject of price, I'm a cheap ba$tard by nature, just ask a few of the guys here, they'll tell ya! Even so, I did not think it was too expensive. But I seriously, doubt anyone here could make a plug-in HDMI replacement any cheaper than what Matthew is selling his F18A for, and if they did, start to design it, and manufacture it, I wonder how long it would take to make it to market? And if one did come to market, just think of how many monitors it would NOT be compatible with. I for one, would have to get rid of my current monitor to buy a compatible one, where is the cost savings in that?

 

Now, considering the TI's output specifications (limited color palette and resolution), I seriously doubt I would notice any difference between the VGA output on my F18A and the output from an HDMI device anyway.

 

That's all I have to say on this topic.

[Bill Loguidice]

It's no slight on the F18A to say that having an option for HDMI output would be awesome.

[briantw]

Personally, I think the F18A (in the TI world) is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's the number #1 Modification for the TI

 

This discussion is not even about the product anymore. It's now becoming about the attitude. My needs and yours are not at odds with each other. We can have different needs to each other, and that's what makes the community so diverse.

 

I don't disagree with anything you've said about this product, and, just because I mentioned some areas where one particular product doesn't meet my particular needs, doesn't mean that any of what you said is invalid to me. Both can be true: 1.) The F18A is the greatest thing since sliced bread for you (and others) and 2.) There is a potential for a product for me (and others) that outputs HDMI for the latest monitors and for future compatibility. Those statements are not at odds. No one's forcing you to choose, or throw your beloved F18A and VGA monitor away, so I'm not getting what the big defensive is about. To pit ideas about future improvements against what already exists is a false dichotomy.

 

I've read your reasoning, such as not wanting to outlay on replace your VGA monitor, but that was never suggested as a requirement. Why is it that noting what doesn't work for me means that you have to throw away what you love? It doesn't. Keep what you love, but let me have my reasoning, please.

 

I can dream of HDMI, 50Hz, possibly aspect ratio correction. (Potentially a lot more, but let's not go into further options, since those first three are already causing upheaval.) Is it illegal to state what I would like to have in a (separate) product and why this one is not perfect for me?

 

"I seriously, doubt anyone here could make a plug-in HDMI replacement any cheaper than what Matthew is selling his F18A for, and if they did, start to design it, and manufacture it, I wonder how long it would take to make it to market?"

 

Again, It's not a competition. Still, what you've laid out in that sentence is quite within the bounds of possibility, but you're extrapolating based on your own vantage point. For me, a different product that meets different needs doesn't have to meet all of those criteria. It's not about how long it takes (my envisioned problem-solver would still be relevant in 6 years) or what it costs (HDMI is worth a lot more $ than VGA, for me, but I still don't think it can't cost less), or the market (I want it for me - "can we have a little obsessive fun here?", not to start a manufacturing company around). Saying it can't be done shuts down the conversation and blocks progress. You're almost saying it shouldn't be done.

 

I also didn't say the picture would necessarily be any clearer at the same resolution. (Don't discount the possibility of having higher resolution modes, however. It's not impossible to do 1920x1080 from the TI if you have a new video controller, but I'm trying to avoid digressing too far -- let's keep future product options in a separate thread). That wasn't the point of having HDMI out, either. It was more about compatibility with the very latest products and their advanced standard video modes.

 

For me (and not anyone else), three years ago, I had composite RCA everywhere with VGA as an option, so the existing product would have been more relevant to me then. Now, everything is digital. I have HDMI switched throughout my system, and there's no VGA anywhere to be seen. My HD satellite set-top-box has HDMI out, so I don't use the yellow composite cable. It also does digital audio via that same cable, so my 25 years of collected RCA cables are obsolete. My 3D Blu-ray player has only an HDMI and an Ethernet connection! My amplifier switches between several HDMI inputs. My Dell laptop has no VGA output - it's DisplayPort and HDMI only. Again, that's me, not you, but it suggests to me what direction consumer display electronics is going, and it suggests, to me, further upgrades for the TI.

 

So please, guys, let's stop pitting my criteria against yours, and don't take such offense when I mention some demonstrably correct assertions about why a product doesn't meet several OF MY needs. Just because someone has an extensive analogue 12" LaserDisc collection, doesn't mean someone else can't come along and say "hmmm... I'd like to see a digital version of that. On a 5" disc."

[Omega-TI]

Please do not misunderstand me, I’m not against your wishes of having a future HDMI device, and I agree with Bill Loguidice that it’s no slight on the F18A. I totally relate to wanting new toys with new technologies for the TI. As many here can attest, I’ve frequently come up with new wants and wishes, and have stated them here myself. I’ve even gotten a few ‘nasty grams’ from one specific individual in the past for daring to make such suggestions/comments.

 

I will admit that a few of your comments TAKEN TOGETHER rubbed me the wrong way, as I WRONGLY took them to be attacks on the product itself, for that I apologize. The first was, “It’s damned expensive”. The second comment, “… $78 to make my TI look like an emulator.” I thought, if he does not want his TI to look like an emulator, why all the fuss about HDMI”? Then later in another message, “What I make for myself, I don’t really care what it costs.”

 

Above all, I was irritated to see yet another one of the threads I started on this device degrade into something less than positive, when the sole intent was to create excitement and encourage development of new programs by pointing out that more people now use this device than not, which proves a market exists for such software.

 

Glad we got that out of the way and taken care of!

[+InsaneMultitasker]

This discussion is not even about the product anymore. It's now becoming about the attitude. My needs and yours are not at odds with each other. We can have different needs to each other, and that's what makes the community so diverse.

/snip/

So please, guys, let's stop pitting my criteria against yours, and don't take such offense when I mention some demonstrably correct assertions about why a product doesn't meet several OF MY needs. Just because someone has an extensive analogue 12" LaserDisc collection, doesn't mean someone else can't come along and say "hmmm... I'd like to see a digital version of that. On a 5" disc."

The intent of this poll/thread was to elicit responses about the F18A and whether or not people have concerns with F18A-only software. I find it curious that your initial response listed "cons" about the device itself, with subsequent responses perceptibly argumentative in nature. To me, it seems you are/were trying to stir the pot. That is my assertion.

[Iwantgames:)]

I just wanna say I love my F18A, thanks to all involved in it and hope to get another in the future to upgrade one of my Colecos the thing is well worth the cost just based on the benefits not to mention how easy they are to install

[Willsy]

F18A kicks ass.

 

RF mod sucks monkey balls.

 

Frankly, I'm in awe of what Matthew has done.

 

That is all.

[briantw]

it seems you are/were trying to stir the pot

 

I'm assuming that, as you typed that, the irony of what you were typing was lost on you. Thank you so much for your positive contribution to the technical obsession I have, as a 30-year-plus veteran of the TI community.