Jump to content
IGNORED

Atari 8-bit Software Preservation Initiative


Farb

Recommended Posts

Farb, I've noticed a spelling error in the filename of "Missle Command" - it should be Missile.

 

Why the collection cotnains 8KB cartridge overdumps instead of the proper 2KB or 4KB images? Examples: 3-D Tic-Tac-Toe, Alien Ambush, Alpha Shield, and more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, I've corrected the spelling mistake.

 

Currently, the preservation list checksums represents the "emulator friendly" representations of the raw dumps -- so ATR/ATX for disks, CAS for cassettes and CAR for cartridges. I wanted to use the CAR format so the end-user wouldn't need to know the details of the bank switching scheme. In the case of 4K cartridges, I used overdumps because I couldn't create a CAR file from the 2K or 4K versions. If there is a way to do that, please let me know.

 

Checksums for the raw media dumps (STREAM and/or SCP for disks, WAV for cassettes and BIN for cartridges) are not currently being tracked in the list. Your question is a valid one and I think it does make sense to include raw dump checksums in some way. WAV, BIN and SCP files are easy since they are a single file. STREAM is a bit harder since it's a directory of many files (one for each side and track). Perhaps just use the checksum of the ZIPped stream directory?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd actually just recommend leaving them as 8K overdumped. Just checked and neither Atari800WinPLus 4.0 nor Maxflash Cartridge Studio recognize the 2K/4K mapper types. There's no difference in execution and it's not difficult to detect the overdumping either, nor would archive size be a problem.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hopefully soon. I need to test the program I wrote to auto-generate the torrent bundle with the non-English characters used in some of the recent Polish titles that were contributed. I just haven't gotten around to it yet as I've been more focused on dumping, scanning and updating the preservation list with the many newly contributed titles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I offered to help you out with it a while ago. Sometimes it is hard to see the forest for the trees. This is after all, a "software preservation initiative", and seems that getting the software into the hands of the public should be one of the goals. I have been providing space on my torrent box for these files since the beginning, I know that probably doesnt seem to mean much but I wanted to contribute. So, the "initiative" gets bogged down in administration. I can understand. I wont bother you again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To Farb and those offering titles and help, you have our appreciation, over the years I've found the Atari a little PC when it comes to making archives of programs with so much talk of copyright and ownership so its great to see instances where folk ignore all that and just want to archive the stuff before it either deteriorates beyond archiving or people simply forget they have stuff tucked away in a box in the attic and it never gets preserved.

 

Please keep helping Farb etc, these preservation initiatives matter..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Farb is already doing some hard work providing periodically torrents to the community. Although there are contributors, when it comes to dumping the titles, it's Farb who has the material and utilities to do so, so all the work falls on one person. And then he has real life work too.

 

I think it has been proven throughout these past months that this project is open to the public without asking anything for it. Some people do contribute by sending original software to be preserved (software that is returned, obviously), others do scan EBay trying to buy titles and having sent them to Farb, others send PDFs of manuals, etc.

And everything is made available to everyone once it has been properly preserved and thoroughly tested.

 

And I think that even more important than getting those titles into the hand of the public is to get those titles first, because without new material the project will die. So I think a little patience should be expected, especially because like Farb has mentioned, a big amount of new material came in and it has to be tested.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, before this thread spirals outta control. I was NOT trying to insult Farb's efforts in any way. My earlier post may have seemed like I was. I have been through many many project management cycles before (it's kinda what I do for a living). All I was attempting to say was that as soon as someone takes responsibility for a project, then they have a responsibility for the cycle of that project. Some thought needs to go into the distribution of the product that is being produced. At least some of the effort could be given by people willing to help, to avoid overloading any single person. Perhaps a website that offered the files as incremental updates, to avoid the necessity of downloading the complete package over and over to keep up-to-date. This is the idea I was attempting (badly) to put forth earlier. This can and should be more than a 1-person effort. My stating that "I wont bother you again" was supposed to mean, that instead of incessantly posting begging for updates, I would shut up till he had something to offer. Like any public forum I forgot to take into account that other people would see what I wrote in the worst possible light. I formally apologize to anyone who thought I was being an a$$, I should have shutup earlier.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, before this thread spirals outta control. I was NOT trying to insult Farb's efforts in any way. My earlier post may have seemed like I was. I have been through many many project management cycles before (it's kinda what I do for a living). All I was attempting to say was that as soon as someone takes responsibility for a project, then they have a responsibility for the cycle of that project. Some thought needs to go into the distribution of the product that is being produced. At least some of the effort could be given by people willing to help, to avoid overloading any single person. Perhaps a website that offered the files as incremental updates, to avoid the necessity of downloading the complete package over and over to keep up-to-date. This is the idea I was attempting (badly) to put forth earlier. This can and should be more than a 1-person effort. My stating that "I wont bother you again" was supposed to mean, that instead of incessantly posting begging for updates, I would shut up till he had something to offer. Like any public forum I forgot to take into account that other people would see what I wrote in the worst possible light. I formally apologize to anyone who thought I was being an a$$, I should have shutup earlier.

 

I got what you meant, just trying to help more.

 

It would be nice to rsync 'em =D

 

I've been seeding since the beginning, and will continue to do so, want to make sure I am always seeding the latest and greatest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, before this thread spirals outta control. I was NOT trying to insult Farb's efforts in any way. My earlier post may have seemed like I was. I have been through many many project management cycles before (it's kinda what I do for a living). All I was attempting to say was that as soon as someone takes responsibility for a project, then they have a responsibility for the cycle of that project. Some thought needs to go into the distribution of the product that is being produced. At least some of the effort could be given by people willing to help, to avoid overloading any single person. Perhaps a website that offered the files as incremental updates, to avoid the necessity of downloading the complete package over and over to keep up-to-date. This is the idea I was attempting (badly) to put forth earlier. This can and should be more than a 1-person effort. My stating that "I wont bother you again" was supposed to mean, that instead of incessantly posting begging for updates, I would shut up till he had something to offer. Like any public forum I forgot to take into account that other people would see what I wrote in the worst possible light. I formally apologize to anyone who thought I was being an a$$, I should have shutup earlier.

 

I don't think anyone thought you were insulting Farb, I read it as an offer of help..

 

Be it offering titles, scanning stuff or just seeding, its all good....Every little bit helps..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, I woke up to a lot of thread activity :-)


@Dragon375, no worries, I didn't interpret anything you said as an insult. I appreciate you seeding new torrents as they become available and your offer of help.


And thanks to the others for chiming in as well.


I want to dispel any myth that this initiative is a single person effort. It may have started that way but I am very grateful that this is NOT the case anymore.


I think it might help to talk about what happens behind the scenes.


Step 1: Acquisition


There are a number of ways that the initiative gets new software to dump:


- The first few hundred titles were dumped by me personally from a private collection that I've spent the last 30 years acquiring.


- Some people (primarily advfan but also myself) spend a not insignificant amount of time and money acquiring software from eBay for purposes of dumping. Time is spent monitoring new auctions, trying to ascertain what reasonable prices are, and doing the rest of the awful eBay dance. I've also recently been listing parts of my personal collection as well as re-listing advfan's contributions on eBay to acquire more capital to purchase software. Listing and shipping things has consumed a lot of my time the past few weeks.


- Some people (such as orpheuswaking, adam242, Major Havoc 2049 and tep392) have generously risked mailing their original disks to me for purposes of dumping. I ascertain the state of those disks, communicate with the contributor if there's any potential risk involved in attempting to dump any of the media, dump what I can and then mail back their disks.


- Some people (such as djmat56 and Kr0tki) have both a collection of software and the means to dump it and are thus able to contribute raw dumps and media scans rather than physical software.


The raw dumps are stored both on my local 5 drive NAS (which has dual-drive redundancy) and are automatically mirrored to Google Drive from there for off-site redundancy. Where I have access to the physical software, I take the time to scan the packaging, manuals and the media itself to store along with the raw dumps to provide traceability.


As a side note, I have recently been spending some time manually cleaning up some of the raw scans in Photoshop and converting them to PDF:




Step 2: Dumping


- My disk dumping setup includes both Kryoflux and SuperCard Pro devices hooked up to 1.2Mb PC floppy drives. The Kryoflux drive has been specially modded to support dumping of double-sided disks. I'm already on my second modded drive as the imaging of these old disks (and frequent head cleanings) is hard on them. I modded the first drive myself and, when it stopped working, I had to purchase a second one due to lack of time to do another mod myself.


- For cassettes, djmat56, Kr0tki and fujidude have all stepped up and prevented me from having to spend the time and money to acquire equipment and figure out how to dump cassettes. Thank you so much guys :-)


Steps 1 & 2 require coordination and effort. Acquisition and dumping take the highest priority, since as advfan mentioned, without software to dump this initiative would simply die.


Step 3: Verification


Once the raw dumps have been acquired, a number of things happen:


- For disks, I convert the raw dumps into ATX (and possibly ATR) format using phaeron's excellent a8rawconv tool. I coordinate with phaeron when an issue with the tool is discovered and he's been very quick to turnaround fixes. I then compare the ATX/ATR files to ones that are already out there (e.g. Atarimania and other sites) to determine if we're dealing with a duplicate of an existing dump or not. ATR files are easy to compare -- ATX files are not. I've had to write tools specifically to help me do these comparisons. I have also recently started working with R.Cade here on the forum to help test a tool he is generously creating to compare Atari disk files which provides much more detail than the simple ones I've made.


- For cassettes, I enlist Kr0tki's help (the author of a8cas) who analyzes the raw dump and creates a CAS file that he has manually adjusted to remove any overdump data. He also takes the time to compare these new CAS files with existing ones to determine if we've got a unique dump or not.


- For cartridges, I've leveraged the excellent spreadsheet that Kr0tki has been maintaining. I've manually converted the raw dumps he has cataloged into CAR files (that's what you'll find on the preservation list) since that format also includes information that makes it easier for folks to actually use the software in emulators.


Step 4: Adding Titles to the List


This sound trivial but also takes time. The emulator-compatible files needs to be tested. I also try to confirm that company info and copyright dates are accurate. Where there are discrepancies, I may do a little research to determine the correct value to add to the list. I then manually generate checksums for the files and enter them. Every entry on the list additionally maintains who contributed the software and who dumped it so we maintain traceability. This is very important and key differentiator for this initiative vs. other ones.


Step 5: Generating the torrent


For this step, I run a tool I wrote to read the preservation list spreadsheet and generates a ClrMamePro-formatted DAT file. This DAT file gets distributed with every version of the torrent I release. I then run ClrMamePro against that DAT file to generate the torrent directory. This provides additional confirmation that the checksum data in the preservation list is valid and is important since human error can creep in. I then manually verify the generated torrent to make sure my tool didn't mess something up. This becomes the end product the rest of the Atari community sees.



So, as I hope is now apparent, the torrent is the last step of a long process that involves collaboration, dumping, research, tool creation, etc. and involves the talents and hard work of many different people. If any of those first four steps consume too much time, creation of a new torrent is going to take a back seat. This is, after all, the software preservation initiative -- not the software distribution initiative.


It would have been much simpler (and safer) to make this a private initiative and only give contributors access to the results. We are still dealing with software that is copyrighted even if much of it is 30+ years old and many of the companies involved no longer exist. However, this would have given the initiative a reputation for being, at best, a "private club" or, at worst, a "hoarding project". Other preservation initiatives, such as the SPS, have suffered from that stigma and I wanted to avoid that. I also felt that giving back to the larger Atari community would promote good-will and also hopefully motivate others to contribute.


My ultimate decision to release a torrent was a way to get the software out there without incurring the hosting and bandwidth costs that come with maintaining a file transfer website. I would still like to eventually create a website for the initiative but that would focus on the meta-data being collected and not on distribution of the software itself.


I completely understand people's eagerness to get their hands on the latest titles that are dumped. I think I've already proven that it will happen in due time and no commitments have been made to anyone with regards to a schedule.


Rest assured that a lot of work is happening on the preservation side and everyone will benefit once the results of those efforts are released. I simply ask for everyone's patience and support. This is, after all, a hobby project and everyone involved is contributing as much of their spare time as they can justify. In the future, I will avoid the trap of estimating when new torrents will be released so no one is disappointed when those estimates go whooshing by. The new official stance will be "a new torrent will be available when it is ready".


Oh, and I guess I should reiterate the call for contributors. We've been coming across quite a bit of software that was unrecoverable due to age. If anyone has the ability to get involved, please do so. Contribution of missing titles is critical since the clock is ticking on the media. Contribution of titles that are already on the list are valuable for verification purposes. Even checking the preservation list for inaccuracies and testing of the software being distributed would be appreciated.


And I can't give enough thanks to all those that have contributed. You guys are keeping this initiative going!

Edited by Farb
  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

one note... on failed disks,discolored or dirty disks....

please consider a light pre cleaning of both sides of the disk surface before putting it in your drives.... the oxides and materials of time can dirty a drive head quick and ruin the disk... sometimes a light disk and head cleaning can make a disk recoverable... just don't count on it working for to long afterwards as it had already failed and will fail again.... don't 'verify' it now works before running the archive procedure... that one attempt might be all you get.... ;)

do not use anything rough, capable of generating static, or put down a film. Do not use anything that strips the disk or it coating. Believe it or not disks are kind of lubricated already and the lack of lube kills disks and head... I should make it easier this way...

practical mans way listed here...

http://www.swtpc.com/knowledgebase/kbpage1.htm

you really should look up the professional tape cleaning lube though.. is it close to factory. and once you have killed the bad stuff it's not a bad second treatment. Done properly and sparingly the disk should not be wet... more like shiny and dry.. you will not see the lube but you will know it is there.

 

side not alcohol route ... don't use the stuff with dyes or colorings added....

Edited by _The Doctor__
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I for one just want to chip in and say thank you to you Farb for all of your efforts and for those of all involved. I personally consider the preservation of these things very important and never understood the mindset of some places like SPS and other closed source projects which kind of seems to defeat the whole purpose of it all. So it is really good to see people volunteering and giving up their time to help keep those atari 8-bit memories still alive.

 

I may not be much help other than seeding torrents. So I just wanted to say that. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Farb, any chance of adding the pdf's to the torrent?

 

With all the scamming of credit card info because of lapse security on sites I try and keep my pay as you go card only for sites I use constantly ie to pay my broadband bill etc rather than one off's like scribd who want you to pay for numerous downloads..

 

And I appreciate the time and work you have put in..All I can offer is seeding..

Edited by Mclaneinc
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Farb, any chance of adding the pdf's to the torrent?

 

With all the scamming of credit card info because of lapse security on sites I try and keep my pay as you go card only for sites I use constantly ie to pay my broadband bill etc rather than one off's like scribd who want you to pay for numerous downloads..

 

And I appreciate the time and work you have put in..All I can offer is seeding..

There are ways around paying on scribd.... and not by 'uploading' or some BS like that.... a google search should turn up some results.... But still, torrent would be better nevertheless.

Edited by Joey Z
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@_The Doctor__, thanks for the tips and the link. I have tried cleaning disks that can't be read with isopropyl alcohol as well as lightly soapy water and have not really had much luck. I didn't know about the lubricant aspect so I will have to try that link's approach in the future when I next come across a disk like that.

 

@Mclaneinc, I didn't realize that scribd.com begins to charge after a certain number of downloads. I've downloaded many PDFs from that site and never been asked for a credit card. How many did you grab before it started bugging you?

 

I don't want to add the PDFs to the existing torrent because it will increase the size dramatically (e.g. from a few hundred megabytes to a few gigabytes). I have been slowly assembling a PDF-specific torrent but it's not quite ready for prime-time yet. The software torrent has priority at the moment since creating the PDFs is significantly more time consuming and much slower to show progress.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some more UK cassette goodness contributed by djmat56:

 

Archon (Ariolasoft)

Boulder Dash II (Prism Leisure)

Fight Night (US Gold)

Galactic Empire (A1)

Gauntlet - The Deeper Dungeons (US Gold)

Leader Board (US Gold)

Mig Alley Ace (US Gold)

Monkey Magic (Micro Design)

O'Riley's Mine (Datasoft)

Pitfall II (Activision)

Pro Mountain Bike Simulator

River Rescue (Alternative)

Space Shuttle (Firebird)

Spider-Man (Americana)

Spy vs. Spy Trilogy (Databyte)

Thrust (Firebird)

Webster - The Word Game (CBS)

Winter Wally (Micro Design)

 

and some further cassette goodness from Duddie & Kr0tki:

 

Airwolf (Elite)

Change (L.K. Avalon)

Chimera (Firebird)

Ghost Chaser (US Gold)

Green Beret (Imagine)

Gry Atari XL-XE cz. IV (Tajemnice Atari)

Henry's House (Mastertronic)

I.Q. Master (ASF)

Kernaw (L.K. Avalon)

Monstrum (ASF)

Montezuma's Revenge (Databyte)

One Man and His Droid (Mastertronic)

Panik! (Atlantis)

Panther (L.K. Avalon)

Polar Pierre (Databyte)

 

And still some more to come...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you know if that's a hard limit or a daily one?

 

Seems its an enforced limit, once you hit it then that's all you get unless you pay or upload stuff, that is the way around it, simply upload other stuff that is ok for scribd any it will allow you a download balance based on the upload size BUT there in lies another issue, I uploaded some some stuff and manually started to download your PDF's and suddenly it said I was using some automated software (I wasn't, all by me clicking the mouse) and would not let me down load anything else for a while.

 

Going to try again and see if its ok...

 

And like Shawn I'd suggest a separate torrent for the PDF's, save the hassle of Scribd and keeps the software small in torrent size. Trust meI know the issue of big downloads, when I'm not looking after my daughter who is ill I do the Atari gamepack with Starwindz and because of its nature its required people to download a gig of data a few times which we really don't want to have that much each time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...