Greg2600 Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 That made things seem a little more interesting but for $200 you could have a WiiU which can emulate all the classic systems and play nintendo's modern offerings. Could be neat but I really, really hope you don't go bankrupt trying to get this thing to market as the whole idea just seems too out of touch with reality. I hope I'm just "not getting it" and you do great with this console and it sells a million units for you. Best of luck, I think you will need it. My fear is that this ruins Mike, and takes RETRO mag and CGE with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Iacovelli Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Retro isn't in charge of CGE its still under control of the orginal guys. I made the same remark on facebook about retroradioroundup runing cge. it was only done them because joe, sean and john we busy with the museum. cge might be moved to texas so it can be connected with the new museum and the other guys might make do another show in vegas not connected with the museum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Getting back to the FPGA bit, suppose they devs want to make a game for a retro system, but decide the limitations are too much. You can just add as much RAM as you want, overclock the CPU to oblivion, modify the color tables to your liking. Suppose you want to give the NES more colors. Instead of 56 colors, you give it the 112 color pallete of the VCS, and let it do more onscreen sprites, etc, with no slowdown or flicker, and give it more addressible space. Maybe even give it the clock speed equivalent of a TurboGrafx. Custom cores would leave the devs more freedom to add stuff to the game that wouldn't be possible otherwise. That said, making custom cores for each game would be a pain. I hope the Retro guys can produce a good selection of default cores with rich feature sets, not necessarily based on pre-existing hardware, and a devkit compatible with a modern development environment that can tweak and exploit the FPGA to the programmer's needs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clint Thompson Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 If someone can use the remains of the Jag2 chipset and implement it on this thing to make a semi-decent game out of it, I'm sold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 If someone can put an i7 in there so I can play flight simulator I'm sold! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Custom cores would leave the devs more freedom to add stuff to the game that wouldn't be possible otherwise. That said, making custom cores for each game would be a pain. I hope the Retro guys can produce a good selection of default cores with rich feature sets, not necessarily based on pre-existing hardware, and a devkit compatible with a modern development environment that can tweak and exploit the FPGA to the programmer's needs. The work of customizing a core to help run a specific game with special requirements would fall on the developer. Of course the cores would need to be well documented and modularized sufficiently to allow such modification without becoming a pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+5-11under Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I'm not sure how feasible it is, but it would be nice to have some cores available to use without having to "download" them from the cart. At least a handful of each of processor, video, audio, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland p Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I wonder now, could one create a whole game in HDL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Or do the original Pong on a transistor by transistor level. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I'm not sure how feasible it is, but it would be nice to have some cores available to use without having to "download" them from the cart. At least a handful of each of processor, video, audio, etc. Why store some in the console and others in the cart? Just pick one method and stick with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Why store some in the console and others in the cart? Just pick one method and stick with it. Well if they stored any complete usable game system cores on the console (and say it had accessible storage), then people would be off playing thousands of games for free with no cash monies going to the company... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glazball Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I'm pretty excited about having a new cart-based system and I'll definitely be on board from day one. My main concern is this: even if the Retro VGS console does really well, with many units sold - I have a feeling we're going to see a lot of developers going the "Kickstart Our Cart" route. I know the cons of physically producing a cart have been discussed, so I won't rehash them here, I just worry that even in a best case scenario, we're not going to see a lot of games put out without being Kickstarted first. I guess it's a personal taste, but I'm not too keen on Kickstarting EVERYTHING which seems to be the way lots of artists (music, game, etc) are going. I hope we'll still see the "We made a game that we hope you think is awesome and will pay $XX to own and play" rather than begging for crowdfunding. That being said, I'll be Kickstarting the Retro VGS because I want to see this console succeed. Very exciting and can't wait for more details. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Or do the original Pong on a transistor by transistor level. Yes, if I remember correctly, I believe the entire PONG prototype was built up out of 7400 series logic chips. The bar owner where the prototype was set up called the guys a few days later saying the game was broken. When they opened the door, the tray was jammed up to the ceiling with quarters!!! Thing is I'm not sure if anything really more sophisticated than PONG or Computer Space has ever been designed on discrete logic once programmable CPUs became cheaply available. Basically, the RVGS is built up on FPGA so technically you could build any game with discrete logic. Most advanced games use some sort of CPU architecture though, so hopefully the guys at Retro can come up with a really powerful and versatile dev kit with a bunch of usable preset "cores" that devs can use. An FPGA may have the potential to be a lot more powerful by programming a complex game in discreet logic rather than using a preset core based on an existing "retro" platform. I wonder if Unity could be rigged to work with it? Would the RVGS be capable of pulling off 3D graphics without a dedicated hardware accelerator? Hardware acceleration would be possible but it would eat up space needed for CPU and RAM. Hopefully there is dedicated RAM on board or else sophisticated games would eat most of the FPGA. I'm assuming the cart uses a serial bus to communicate with the FPGA, or does it use a Parallel bus? Is a BIOS required to load the FPGA program from the cart to the console? BIOS could become a long term reliability issue if it needs to be reflashed every 20 or so years to retain it's data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 I wonder if Unity could be rigged to work with it? Would the RVGS be capable of pulling off 3D graphics without a dedicated hardware accelerator? Sure - you want your RVGS to cost $20,000, right? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Sure - you want your RVGS to cost $20,000, right? Nah, I thought I'd trade my minty CIB Air Raid for one... BTW, I do have an Air Raid cart but it's just a fridge magnet. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/204618-air-raid-magnet-mod/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Well you could maybe knock it down to $10,000 if you want an FPGA to simulate the worst built in Intel 3D ever. Let's put it this way - an FPGA capable of simulating the Jaguar is probably $150ish. So what does that tell you about the cost of an FPGA even remotely approaching modern 3D... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland p Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 (edited) Just stick to good old vector graphics if you want 3d Edited April 18, 2015 by roland p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3-rg Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 I wonder if this all-things-to-all-men approach of FPGA system simulation was the plan all along or if it came about more recently due to practicalities involved in getting devs interested and working on a truly new hardware platform? I can see the business-side appeal of such an approach, it certainly ticks a few boxes and gets around a few obvious problems when it comes to getting devs interested and up to speed, but I'm not sure that in doing so it creates a number of problems of its own for the longer term or simply misses an opportunity for greatness. What I can't quite determine is how a system without any real identity of its own can become something gamers have that attachment and devotion to. I suppose the angle is the physicality, being based around cartridges, boxes and manuals, that plugging one in has that magical old-school feel and that the types of people who enjoy filling shelves with boxes will buy in to the system. But knowing the system is what it is, to me it'd feel as weirdly antiparallel as plugging in an odyssey cartridge. It just wouldn't be what it was purporting to be. But then I'm not a collector, haven't been for over a dozen years, there's no room in my life for these physical things, so I'm clearly not the target audience. But then again, we're not really looking at a true collector mentality here, there's no primal and inherent hunter-gatherer urges trying to Pokémon a known list of possibilities, this is new games in an ongoing process. I don't think anyone can really judge how that might play out. Maybe devs on platforms this hardware supports will sign up to the programme and seek a wider audience for their games (after all, people make games to be played, it does make sense). Personally I feel it's just a shame that this isn't going to be something offering new, undiscovered territory to explore and exploit, but rather a means to simulate already existing and well-worn paths. But then again, who even has the time, dedication or inclination to learn the ins and outs of a new retro platform... I suppose only time will tell what devs and gamers make of it, the method of delivery being the unique aspect that gives it a chance, but could also end up being the millstone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 I wonder if this all-things-to-all-men approach of FPGA system simulation was the plan all along or if it came about more recently due to practicalities involved in getting devs interested and working on a truly new hardware platform? I can see the business-side appeal of such an approach, it certainly ticks a few boxes and gets around a few obvious problems when it comes to getting devs interested and up to speed, but I'm not sure that in doing so it creates a number of problems of its own for the longer term or simply misses an opportunity for greatness. What I can't quite determine is how a system without any real identity of its own can become something gamers have that attachment and devotion to. I suppose the angle is the physicality, being based around cartridges, boxes and manuals, that plugging one in has that magical old-school feel and that the types of people who enjoy filling shelves with boxes will buy in to the system. But knowing the system is what it is, to me it'd feel as weirdly antiparallel as plugging in an odyssey cartridge. It just wouldn't be what it was purporting to be. But then I'm not a collector, haven't been for over a dozen years, there's no room in my life for these physical things, so I'm clearly not the target audience. But then again, we're not really looking at a true collector mentality here, there's no primal and inherent hunter-gatherer urges trying to Pokémon a known list of possibilities, this is new games in an ongoing process. I don't think anyone can really judge how that might play out. Maybe devs on platforms this hardware supports will sign up to the programme and seek a wider audience for their games (after all, people make games to be played, it does make sense). Personally I feel it's just a shame that this isn't going to be something offering new, undiscovered territory to explore and exploit, but rather a means to simulate already existing and well-worn paths. But then again, who even has the time, dedication or inclination to learn the ins and outs of a new retro platform... I suppose only time will tell what devs and gamers make of it, the method of delivery being the unique aspect that gives it a chance, but could also end up being the millstone. The more and more I think about it, the RVGS could have the potential to take off as an underground homebrew/indie platform. It would be the video gaming equivalent of the vinyl record renaissance. In a world of digital downloads, it becomes chic to collect physical media. The problem with video games as opposed to music or movies, is they are scattered through the four winds across dozens of proprietary systems. Vinyl records are just that. Everything from the 1950s onward can be played on any 33/45 RPM turntable. Add 78 RPM speed setting and a spare cartridge with a ball stylus, you can play earlier laquer records too... But with video games, the incompatabilities are staggering. Even multi-in-one systems like the Retron5 only play the top 5 or so most popular cartridge formats. It's like shoving an 8-track into a CD player. Not gonna happen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 ..I'm assuming the cart uses a serial bus to communicate with the FPGA, or does it use a Parallel bus? Is a BIOS required to load the FPGA program from the cart to the console? BIOS could become a long term reliability issue if it needs to be reflashed every 20 or so years to retain it's data. Every FPGA system has to get its data from someplace. And it seems common practice for an FPGA system to have a microprocessor or microcontroller to manage everything. And that requires a BIOS of some sort. It's been a while since I priced out what a masked rom would cost. But it seems everything is flash based today and has been for many years now; iphones, ipods, tablets, pcs, hard drive firmware.. everything. It's all flash based storage, ranging from small serial-roms containing data tables to complete 128GB storage systems (and more) in SSD & tablets. Flash based because of cost, speed, convenience, power consumption, field programmability. So yes there's gonna hafta be some sort of flash here too. And that means limited life space. I see the original VCS outliving these consoles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Every FPGA system has to get its data from someplace. And it seems common practice for an FPGA system to have a microprocessor or microcontroller to manage everything. And that requires a BIOS of some sort. It's been a while since I priced out what a masked rom would cost. But it seems everything is flash based today and has been for many years now; iphones, ipods, tablets, pcs, hard drive firmware.. everything. It's all flash based storage, ranging from small serial-roms containing data tables to complete 128GB storage systems (and more) in SSD & tablets. Flash based because of cost, speed, convenience, power consumption, field programmability. So yes there's gonna hafta be some sort of flash here too. And that means limited life space. I see the original VCS outliving these consoles! Flash chips may retain data for 20+ years and EPROMs for 30+ years. Suppose Flash has ~10,000 write cycles. Even after a flash chip or EPROM succumbs to bit-rot, it can be wiped and reprogrammed and you've only consumed one write cycle. Suppose you reflash the BIOS ever 20 years to keep it fresh, and said BIOS is good for ~10,000 write cycles. In ideal conditions (for starters, let's store it in an oxygen free atmosphere, preferably inert like pure nitrogen or argon), you could keep the console alive for 200,000 years! But the VCS will still be kicking a million year from now, so that doesn't say too much. So when humans evolve into some hybrid space alien dinosaur hybrid, some post-human archeologists will uncover some old video game consoles and have a blast with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Iacovelli Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 so your saying that cocroaches and atari 2600 are the only 2 things that out live everybody since cocroahes are said to out live a nuclear explosion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 so your saying that cocroaches and atari 2600 are the only 2 things that out live everybody since cocroahes are said to out live a nuclear explosion. The cockroaches will mutate into the superior species. Their demise will be a dusty Atari console and a bunch of games that survived nuclear holocaust. The intelligent cockroach beings worship the Atari like a god and become addicted to it's games. This ultimately leads to the downfall of the cockroach civilization, until another race of sentient beings takes over. Or not. By this time, 1,000,000,000 A.D. is fast approaching and the sun is heating up causing the oceans to evaporate. Poor Dolphins were next in line to rule the Earth but instead took to the skies in space ships while the cockroaches slowly died off one by one in the sweltering heat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 It would be the video gaming equivalent of the vinyl record renaissance. Renaissance, huh? Interesting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Renaissance, huh? Interesting... No love for cassettes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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