Earthworm Jim on Jaguar:question was asked, answer was given :-)

[+madman]

But the Quake/2 stuff on the Falcon is also totally textured. Also, for Quake on the Jag, I don't think we have to have 3D models of the characters either. I could see a Quake, that has some textures, whatever might be pulled off at a decent frame-rate (using JagDoom as the bar for "decent." lets say), but maybe garuad shaded floors and/or ceilings, along with some walls, bridges, etc, but then throw in pre-rendered characters ala Doom, with 16 (possibly more) angles to them, maybe some perspective correction and Bob's your uncle! I don't need totally 3D monsters to shoot at. I personally think it's just about thinking outside of the box and not being constrained to trying to pull off everything the original Quake did, yet in the end, still have a very Quake-like game on the Jag that can live within the constraints of the hardware. That's how these programmers on the Genesis (Wolfenstein, Duke Nukem 3D) , etc. do it.

 

Think outside of the box even with the format, i.e., we know for sure cart and CD combos CAN be pulled off, ala Protector/Resurgence cart/CD combo, so to help with some types of memory constraints something similar could be used there too, of course we have know that 6MB carts are possible too, and there's always bank-switching to fall back on, and main memory constraints could be gotten around with levels chopped up into smaller chunks and have brief loading times, etc. If you really want too, I really think it's possible. I'm just scratching the surface with out-of-the-box concepts here too, took me all the brain time of writing this post. And we know I'm supposedly retarded.

What would the point of ANY of this be? Yes, cart and CD combos are possible, but why would one design a game from scratch to use both simultaneously? What would the advantage there be? If a game needs the additional space that a CD offers, why not just use the CD format entirely? Why in the year 2015 would someone want to play a stripped down version of a game that's nearly 20 years old on even older hardware? None of this makes any sense whatsoever.

[Gunstar]

What would the point of ANY of this be? Yes, cart and CD combos are possible, but why would one design a game from scratch to use both simultaneously? What would the advantage there be? If a game needs the additional space that a CD offers, why not just use the CD format entirely? Why in the year 2015 would someone want to play a stripped down version of a game that's nearly 20 years old on even older hardware? None of this makes any sense whatsoever.

Well, you obviously replied while i was editing/adding to my post, so I do mention using CD entirely, but I think that using the cart and cd combo is better because then a chunk of memory isn't subtracted from main memory like happens with CD only, that's why. As to what the point is, the same point of climbing a mountain, because it's there. The same point for anyone programming new games on old systems, because they can and to see if it can be done. For fun, for lots of reasons that you've proven over and over you just don't get. So leave it to us that do "get it" and return to your closed unimaginative little world and quit asking what the point is when you clearly will never get what the point is to us. So roll your eyes and move on.

The fool (or mad man) and the wise man both think the other spews nonsense, but only one is right.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Gunstar

[+madman]

Well, you obviously replied while i was editing/adding to my post, so I do mention using CD entirely, but I think that using the cart and cd combo is better because then a chunk of memory isn't subtracted from main memory like happens with CD only, that's why. As to what the point is, the same point of climbing a mountain, because it's there. The same point for anyone programming new games on old systems, because they can and to see if it can be done. For fun, for lots of reasons that you've proven over and over you just don't get. So leave it to us that do "get it" and return to your closed unimaginative little world and quit asking what the point is when you clearly will never get what the point is to us. So roll your eyes and move on.

The fool (or mad man) and the wise man both think the other spews nonsense, but only one is right.

I majored in computer science, I've written code and tools for long dead systems, so I get it. I wrote a tool for the Famicom Disk System that is useful to maybe 15 people in the world who own the necessary hardware to use it. When I was in college I completely reverse engineered Alley Way on the Gameboy when I was learning the system and re-sourced it with comments. So don't come around here with your pompous attitude that you understand something that some of us are just too stupid to understand. I get doing things just to do it. The difference is you don't plan to actually DO any of this. You just talk about it and talk nonsense at that. If someone wrote a stripped down Quake on the Jag I would absolutely think, "hey that's a cool accomplishment" but I would have absolutely no interest in playing it. Why don't you tell us your technical and programming background because you are clearly smarter than us because you're one of the few who "get it." You also seem to be an expert on extracting as much performance out of a console as possible. Let's hear your qualifications and next steps to getting Quake up and running on the Jag.

[Gunstar]

Just to remind you madman, I have you on ignore. My curiosity got the better of me when you posted out of no where in the middle of this thread, but it was just the same old crap I've come to expect after all, so my curiosity has faded and I haven't and won't read your latest reply above or any from you again.

[+madman]

Just to remind you madman, I have you on ignore. My curiosity got the better of me when you posted out of no where in the middle of this thread, but it was just the same old crap I've come to expect after all, so my curiosity has faded and I haven't and won't read your latest reply above or any from you again.

Valid response to me asking about your technical qualifications. In other words: You have none, which we already knew. Good day, sir.

[+CyranoJ]

This is the Jaguar.

 

Where people who do are disbelieved.

 

Where people who claim they can, don't.

 

Where people who can't are experts.

[+madman]

This is the Jaguar.

 

Where people who do are disbelieved.

 

Where people who claim they can, don't.

 

Where people who can't are experts.

Simple as that.

[phoenixdownita]

Simple as that.

 

Nevermind.

[Agent X]

 

I got some more info from my source.

 

Interview: Earthworm Jim was planned for the Atari Jaguar

http://ejagfest.de/interview-earthworm-jim-was-planned-for-the-atari-jaguar/?lang=en#more-1992

 

 

That's amazing! I never knew there were actual concrete plans to bring Earthworm Jim to the Jaguar.

 

This reminds me of when I learned a few months ago of plans to port over the Genesis version of Disney's Aladdin to the Jaguar.

 

Both of these games would have been excellent to have on the Jaguar, even if they weren't greatly enhanced.

 

Earthworm Jim on the Jaguar... with Raymans quality graphics... that would have been amazing!. Although looking at other 16-bit ports, they wouldnt have improved it much over the original.

 

Turrican with the graphical quality of Native...that would have been amazing too. Oh but look, other Amiga ports to the Jaguar like Soccer Kid and Zool 2 look almost identical to the originals...darn it!

 

As I figure it games like Earthworm Jim and Aladdin were already in the upper echelon of 16-bit platform games, with great artwork and slick animation. Even in their original 16-bit incarnations, these looked better (in terms of artistic quality) than some of the 16-bit portovers that the Jaguar actually did get.

 

I don't think the artists would have gone back and added too many more enhancements to the visuals (perhaps more colors), unless they could have been assured that the artwork could also be reused for versions of the games on other contemporary platforms like PlayStation, Saturn, 3DO, 32X, or PC.

 

What would the point of ANY of this be? Yes, cart and CD combos are possible, but why would one design a game from scratch to use both simultaneously? What would the advantage there be? If a game needs the additional space that a CD offers, why not just use the CD format entirely? Why in the year 2015 would someone want to play a stripped down version of a game that's nearly 20 years old on even older hardware? None of this makes any sense whatsoever.

 

Going off on a tangent here, but there are certain types of games that would have benefited. I'm envisioning something like some of the Capcom and SNK fighting games on the Saturn, which used a RAM cartridge. You could load frames of animation for the characters from the CD onto the cartridge, so that the system could access them quickly during gameplay, while also being able to stream high-quality music from the disc.

[+madman]

Going off on a tangent here, but there are certain types of games that would have benefited. I'm envisioning something like some of the Capcom and SNK fighting games on the Saturn, which used a RAM cartridge. You could load frames of animation for the characters from the CD onto the cartridge, so that the system could access them quickly during gameplay, while also being able to stream high-quality music from the disc.

The Jag isn't the Saturn. I could be wrong, but I have to imagine the Jaguar's cart bus is a limiting factor.

[Zerosquare]

It definitely is, since it's only 32 bit wide, and every access uses 5 bus cycles (at best). A RAM extension cart is technically possible, but performance would suffer.

[sd32]

It definitely is, since it's only 32 bit wide, and every access uses 5 bus cycles (at best). A RAM extension cart is technically possible, but performance would suffer.

Do you think the performance hit would be too bad, in the case of games ala CPS2 and Neo Geo style fighting games?

[Lost Dragon]

@Agent X:A conversion of Aladdin from the MD/Genesis was being talked about from the earliest UK magazine coverage of the Jaguar i personally saw (Gamesmaster Magazine), with it being simply expected to happen as Virgin were already converting things like Dragon:Bruce Lee Story to the Jag.

 

The MD/Genesis version would of made for a far 'better' version to port over than the SNES version i think.Shame it never happened :-(

 

Even though i'm not a fan of it and i doubt it would of been greatly enhanced, i'd rather of seen EWJ ported over than say Ocean's Toki Goes Apeshit finished and released as from an artistic point of view, i've never felt that looked great at all.No offense to Bobby Earl etc, but it just seemed to lack the artistic direction many 16 Bit platformers had.

[NeoGeoNinja]

Presumably, Turrican would have been based on MEGA Turrican - the best Turrican, to date, ever.

 

I had Super Turrican and Super Turrican 2 for SNES, but they just weren't as good...

[Zerosquare]

Do you think the performance hit would be too bad, in the case of games ala CPS2 and Neo Geo style fighting games?

Dunno. It would require testing.

[Lost Dragon]

@SD32...Speaking as a massive Turrican fan (1st played on C64, then Turrican 2 on ST, later Mega Turrican, moved onto clones like Hurrican on PC, Gunlord on DC)....

 

 

Was'nt Mega Turrican made for the Mega Drive 1st, ported later to the Amiga, but the Amiga version (under Turrican 3 title) saw a commercial release 1st as the MD game struggled to find a publisher?.

 

I only ask as, if that was the case, i wonder if there was a concern or feeling amongst the publishers that there simply was'nt that big a market for Turrican on console anymore.

 

Wonder how the MD version of the original sold and same for SNES Super Turrican?.

 

Games are bloody superb.

[Lost Dragon]

@SD32:SNES Super Turrican had several nasty creatures cut in due to memory constraints. Developers were told to deliver the game in 4 Mbit, after finishing it as a 6 MBit title. Not only did they have to remove misc art in several places, but a full stage and a feature of the new Beam weapon: Not only could it freeze enemies, but also melt frozen ones, something that the player had to discover in the Ice World and that led into a stage set on a Robot Transport hurtling through the clouds. But it wouldn’t fit – and thus, somewhere, on a forgotten floppy disk, there still might exist the original Super Turrican – Director’s Cut.”

 

Thanks to UNSEEN64 for the info and the cancelled PS3 Turrican Game:

 

http://www.unseen64.net/2009/05/27/project-c-factor-5-ps3-cancelled/

 

You've also got Thornado on N64 canned and Manfred Trenz, who began work on a 3D Turrican in 2000, but project was also scrapped, but he also has stated he feels putting game in 3D would change game too much, it would’nt be the same.

[NeoGeoNinja]

Was'nt Mega Turrican made for the Mega Drive 1st, ported later to the Amiga, but the Amiga version (under Turrican 3 title) saw a commercial release 1st as the MD game struggled to find a publisher?.

 

Yeah. This is my understanding of this too. Mega Turrican was first on MD, then ported as T3 for Amiga.

 

Shame 'Turrican' for MD was complete balls though.

 

@Lost Dragon: Did you ever get around to Super Turrican 2? It was weird. Just didn't 'feel' like a Turrican game. Willing to bet it didn't start life as one. Being Factor 5, I'm almost willing to bet it started life as a Star Wars title for SNES and then, instead, released using the Turrican license.

 

I can't prove it, but Super Turrican 2 has a very 'Super Star Wars' type vibe to it - even if Lucasarts handled all the SNES titles before Factor 5 did Rogue Squadron series.

 

Shame about Factor 5 btw. They were a very talented little outfit.

 

Oh... NGDEVTEAM really NEED to make a Gunlord 2 btw!

[Lost Dragon]

DOH! I put my replies to SD32, not NeoGeoNinja as intended, sorry to both involved....long day :-(

 

Anywho, Turrican MD...Accolade handled that did'nt they?. I never tried the original on MD as i'd hammered the C64 version so much.

 

They seemed to want to inflict Universal Soldier on SNES owners as well:

 

http://www.unseen64.net/2008/04/14/universal-soldier-snes-unreleased/

 

 

Super Turrican 2 seemed more an attempt to 'use' the SNES hardware (Dolby Pro-Logic, Mode 7 etc) than do a proper Turrican game to myself.

 

Factor 5 were supposed to be doing stuff for Lucas via SNES SFX Chip (Indy Jones game) but tech was'nt powerful enough, so maybe ST2 did have it's roots in a possible StarWars game they hoped to pitch to Lucas?

Edited November 6, 2015 by Lost Dragon

[Agent X]

The Jag isn't the Saturn. I could be wrong, but I have to imagine the Jaguar's cart bus is a limiting factor.

 

The Saturn was one example. The PC Engine/TurboGrafx-16 is an example of an older console that also utilized RAM cartridges for this purpose.

 

It definitely is, since it's only 32 bit wide, and every access uses 5 bus cycles (at best). A RAM extension cart is technically possible, but performance would suffer.

 

I'm sure it would "suffer" compared to accessing the Jaguar's own internal memory, but of course we cannot expand that. The two natural follow-up questions here would be:

 

1. What's the difference in speed between reading data from a RAM cartridge (previously loaded onto that cartridge from a CD), and reading that same data from a ROM cartridge?

 

2. What's the difference in speed between decompressing sprite data from a ROM cartridge into the Jaguar's main memory, compared to transferring uncompressed data from a RAM cartridge into the Jaguar's main memory?

 

I think if both of these could be determined, then we could figure out how much of a benefit there would be in doing a RAM cartridge on the Jaguar.

[+madman]

I think if both of these could be determined, then we could figure out how much of a benefit there would be in doing a RAM cartridge on the Jaguar.

I think the real question is: What homebrewer is making a game that pushes the limits of the Jag's RAM? As I've mentioned I've supported all Jag homebrew, but I haven't seen anyone who actually makes games for the system complain about the lack of RAM for their project. This type of talk is generally from people who have no idea what they're talking about and are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

 

What is it about the Jaguar that makes people think homebrewers are going to make games that exceed those put out by full time development teams back in the 90s? Rayman is considered one of the best Jag games, do people really think that a homebrewer will make a game with that level of depth, but they can't because they need a RAM cart?

[+CyranoJ]

I think the real question is: What homebrewer is making a game that pushes the limits of the Jag's RAM?

 

SuperflyDX has over 3.5 megabytes of data, plus needs workspace RAM to actually run... and fits inside a 2mb single load binary.

 

Do the math

[GroovyBee]

I think the real question is: What homebrewer is making a game that pushes the limits of the Jag's RAM?

As a developer you tailor your game to fit the requirements of the machine at hand. Ultimately you end up reducing the eye/ear candy. So that could be anything from having fewer sound effects or less music or making good use of 256 colour graphics (compression doesn't always work on all data types but thats an option too). It all depends on what you want to sacrifice and what you want to achieve in the time you want to get the project done in.

[+madman]

As a developer you tailor your game to fit the requirements of the machine at hand. Ultimately you end up reducing the eye/ear candy. So that could be anything from having fewer sound effects or less music or making good use of 256 colour graphics (compression doesn't always work on all data types but thats an option too). It all depends on what you want to sacrifice and what you want to achieve in the time you want to get the project done in.

I'm 100% with you. I'm trying to understand why people think an aftermarket Jaguar RAM cart will help future Jag homebrew development.

[Agent X]

I think the real question is: What homebrewer is making a game that pushes the limits of the Jag's RAM? As I've mentioned I've supported all Jag homebrew, but I haven't seen anyone who actually makes games for the system complain about the lack of RAM for their project. This type of talk is generally from people who have no idea what they're talking about and are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

 

What is it about the Jaguar that makes people think homebrewers are going to make games that exceed those put out by full time development teams back in the 90s? Rayman is considered one of the best Jag games, do people really think that a homebrewer will make a game with that level of depth, but they can't because they need a RAM cart?

 

I mentioned it because a part of this conversation touched on "what benefit would there be to a combination cartridge/CD game"? I answered by saying that you could have a game utilize the faster access of ROM, while also utilizing the CD to stream music, video, or other data.

 

If a RAM cartridge isn't needed, then no big deal. If someone is capable of shoehorning a Capcom CPS-2 or late 90s Neo-Geo caliber game completely into a standard Jaguar ROM cartridge with no need for a CD, then that would be excellent.

 

If this is a problem that doesn't exist, then disregard my suggestion. I just thought this might be an idea to possibly elevate future games to the "next level".

 

Knowledge and experience are cumulative. More and more, we are starting to see homebrew games on a multitude of platforms that rival or exceed the quality of commercial games from 10-20 years earlier. What's to say that the Jaguar should be any different?