phoenixdownita Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) From the first sizzle reel post: fb_sizzle_reel.PNG And he kept his promise! ======== Despite my giving them a little grief (I earned it), I really do wish them luck. I just wish their transparency was a bit clearer. I am with you here, it is just that this so far has been such an exercise in mismanagement and overpromising and wrong targets ... it's not even funny. http://crowdcharts.com/campaign/retro-vgs is at 65% right now. Edited September 19, 2015 by phoenixdownita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) ... It's on Indiegogo, because I believe KS requires you to have a working prototype before launching a campaign in this type of project area... I don't think people understand that such a clause (require a working proto for HW projects) is actually there to HELP them get support. Everyone knows it takes quite an infusion of cash to go from proto to production but the first pieces have to be on you .... there's tons of brilliant ideas but it's up to the guy seeking to promote them to at least show in very small scale (proto) they work and then seek for community support. It's a great opportunity that KS, IGG and such are around, just use them right and don't spoil their value for everyone. Don't use them because the "populace" may be more gullible/simpleminded than a bank, do your homework the same then just jump the middleman (the bank) and seek support directly from your target audience. Failing to do so means you don't have an audience, your idea is not that great or you fail to convince the audience to support you aside the good intentions/words. A proto is a great way to convince your audience that your idea is good enough to move forward. Edited September 19, 2015 by phoenixdownita 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StopDrop&Retro Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) I thought it was you on NeoGAF, same joke, maybe he read it here and "copied". Yeah, it's me My username here is the name of my YouTube channel. I joined a long time ago because I made a Pac-Man ROM hack with a tool from this forum and wanted to thank the guy who made it possible. But the site was having some issue with registering so I haven't been able to actually log in until now. Edited September 19, 2015 by StopDrop&Retro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) ...43K in 5h -> 232h to go -> 9.5 days. They can still do it. Regarding that stupid comparison table, did anyone noticed they completely ignored the Android mobile market ... Edited September 19, 2015 by phoenixdownita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Prototype controller? http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Controller-Wii-Nintendo-U-6304900/dp/B009D4JW3U/ref=sr_1_30?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1442696735&sr=1-30&keywords=wii++u+controller 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Prototype controller? http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Controller-Wii-Nintendo-U-6304900/dp/B009D4JW3U/ref=sr_1_30?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1442696735&sr=1-30&keywords=wii++u+controller madman beat you there: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/235430-how-has-this-not-been-posted-yet-retro-vgs/page-57?do=findComment&comment=3324908 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StopDrop&Retro Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 It is the exact same controller, they've mentioned they're using that manufacturer several times, no secret there. The manufacturer is making corded versions specifically for the RVGS and are currently testing them (in the podcast Mike says he has one and is expected to get the other yesterday). Supposedly, making it corded eliminates the spotty connectivity issue that earned this controller such a bad 2 star reputation. However, I've heard just as many complaints about its fragility and analog sticks going dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mux Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 It's actually kinda sad that projects like these go live and erode the good will and trust from backers. While they still have plenty of time to get a bump, I really, really hope that if they DO get funded, the actually follow up with something tangible. It just boggles my mind, and I keep repeating myself, that with TWO hardware people on board, they're not showing ANYTHING other than a piece of cardboard with some components glued on it. -Mux 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 I see, you stick a cable into it and that makes it a prototype? madman beat you there: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/235430-how-has-this-not-been-posted-yet-retro-vgs/page-57?do=findComment&comment=3324908 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 On that chart: what is a "transferable game"? Based on the chart, I think it means the save data is on the cart, so you can bring the game wherever and your data is still there. As opposed to saving data locally on a modern console. No. A transferable game is one that you you can easily and freely give away or sell to someone else. You give me money, I give you my game. Like in the old days of trading baseball cards. One exchange of cash, one sold game. No DRM, no locking a game to a specific account and console/phone. Fathom that! It's something all dev studio ceo's hate and despise because each time it happens they claim to lose a sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+5-11under Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 After all the damage done by this thread? Send everyone links to this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 After all the damage done by this thread? Why don't you go and emulate some games? Or do you need to ask your wife for permission first? 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 I don't think people understand that such a clause (require a working proto for HW projects) is actually there to HELP them get support. As I recall, his stated problem with KS's rules is that they don't enforce them. He linked to one campaign that recently ended, which is a great example. The strange thing is that because the RVGS team is acting like Gollum with the One Ring on technical information, RVGS seems to be only a few steps ahead (tooling; a controller). For all we know, they have a fully-functional setup and are sitting around playing multiplayer games on their yet-to-be-finished 16-bit core while drinking their craft beer. They may know this, but we certainly don't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Kevin just posted some pics of his FPGA systems, figured someone (Mux) might get a kick out of it. http://atariage.com/forums/gallery/album/1489-fpga-videogame-systems/ 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Why don't you go and emulate some games? Or do you need to ask your wife for permission first? Seeing as how RetroVGS won't, that sounds like a good idea. I absolutely have to ask the wife for permission if we're going to play Strip Star Raiders. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Kevin just posted some pics of his FPGA systems, figured someone (Mux) might get a kick out of it. http://atariage.com/forums/gallery/album/1489-fpga-videogame-systems/ His work has been looking very promising and is the only good part of the freeway pileup that has been the RVGS. Hopefully it doesn't get shelved and/or locked up in some DOA or never produced system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevtris Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Well, After seeing their IGG page, and how the FPGA is gone? or significantly reduced from their system, I can't stay silent any longer. As many know, there was talk of various "cores" on the RVGS, and that I was going to be the dork supplying them. Anyways, I thought I would inject a little bit of sanity into the whole "FPGA videogame system" realm and show off what I have been able to do alone, and without any kind of outside funding. I started working on FPGA videogame cores and systems back in 2004, when I made my first prototype "FPGA videogame" board. Back then, I was enamored with DB9 controllers (genesis, 2600, etc). So as can be seen in this prototype, I have two DB9 ports, a DB15 (for NES/SNES controller adapters, and "expansion"), an SD card and several other things. Namely VGA, composite, s-video, audio, PS/2 keyboard and mouse (lol). This system worked, and is what I developed the FPGA NES and FPGA 2600 on. Then in 2010, I decided to update my project and designed and built a second prototype system. Since plastic enclosure design was expensive, I made it fit inside an NES cartridge shell, and the connectors would stick out the back, where the cartridge would otherwise normally fit into the NES system. This prototype was used to design the rest of my systems (17 to date). (bonus image of that board outputting DVI to a flatpanel, running Kirby's Adventure) With this board, I finished up A LOT of systems. All of these systems are DONE and 100% finished and tested, ready to be targeted ("ported") to nearly anything with an FPGA inside it: * NES * SMS * Game Gear * Colecovision * Atari 2600 * Atari 7800 * Gameboy * Gameboy Colour (has 1 or 2 tiny bugs left, but 99.9% of the games run) * Intellivision (with Intellivoice, computer add-on, etc) * Odyssey^2 (with The Voice add-on) * Creativision (with tape drive support) * Arcadia 2001 * Adventure Vision * Videobrain * RCA Studio 2 (lul) * Fairchild Channel F * Supervision (crappyish LCD handheld) and some non-game things like an SNES SPC music player with visualizer, and a realtime mandelbrot zoomer/explorer. Again, all the above are done and ready to go and currently work on my homemade dev board. Then in 2014, I decided to make my third FPGA Videogame board.. the "possibly sellable" version. This board was a huge step up from the last, and is on par with what the RVGS has and can do IMO. The interesting part is this board exists and I have designed it and wrote code for it. Amusingly I have not actually stuffed one of the boards, but I will explain why later. The board was manufactured, and I did buy all the parts however. First, here's my "3D render" of the board, fresh out of Altium (circuit board program). The goals for this board were these: * Make something I can sell! * Include ALL the outputs possible for video and audio, but only it people paid extra to keep costs down if you were only interested in HDMI * 4 USB controller ports * High speed SD card interface (4 bit mode, 50MHz) * menu buttons for the user so he does not need to dork with the controller * RGB status LED * Expansion port for cartridge adapters (the right side connector) * Be able to run all the current cores + SNES, Genesis, Neogeo, and possibly PS1 era systems. * 1080p/60fps video output * Ethernet port The board is 6 layers, and was my first board in Altium after I switched over in 2014. It was a lot of fun to design and it helped me to learn Altium. I got the boards made which cost around $600 (for 10 of them), and bought parts (another 400-500 bucks). There's no less than TWO Cyclone V FPGAs on here- Itchy is designed to be the "user interface" and video scaler/processor, and Scratchy is the "engine" that does all the core running and nothing else. Before I had a chance to stuff the boards, I worked on that HiDefNES NES to HDMI adapter which was finished a month or so ago and released. I am glad I did, because I learned a lot of stuff about HDMI and can now revise my board to save a lot of parts and cost that I don't need. So, there will be another cheaper rev of this board now. I already have the parts, so I just need to design a newer PCB. Here's two views of the finished boards. I bought the main 6 layer board and some of the 4 layer "analog" boards, and plugged them together for these pictures: And if you're REALLY curious what my board stackup looks like, including internal layers you can see that here: http://gerblook.org/pcb/JTtikCWit4ezouDz9p37Fn#top-copper Click the links at the left to view the different layers. I noticed in the IGG that they are allocating around $100K(!) for prototype development. This is an insane amount of money, considering I am in for around $1000-1200 on my latest "advanced" prototypes- around 1% of what they are seeking. No, I am not going to start asking for money, just thought it was interesting to point out. Total development time from concept to prototype PCBs+parts was around 2-3 months. This included the design time in Altium, learning Altium, and getting the boards manufactured. I figured if I was going to sell this thing, I was damn well going to have a working prototype of what I wanted to manufacture, and have the software fully working too. As for the cartridge adapters, I came up with this idea almost 2 years ago, and the evidence can be seen on my above prototype PCB. I anticipated selling adapters in "groups". i.e. a single adapter might contain 3 or 4 cartridge ports each. The main stopper of course is packaging them into some kind of enclosure (requiring expensive molding, but today it isn't TOO bad). Frankly the electronics on something like this isn't too hairy, it always comes down to how you are going to package it, and who's going to want to pay for it. hehe. Just thought I'd drop the bomb in here about how I have basically created what they are trying to create, but actually have gotten it manufactured and did it all on a shoestringish budget. (If anyone thinks this doodad would fly with a $200-250 price point, lemme know. The only reason I have not tried to sell it was because I thought it was too much money to get a lot of support on i.e. Kickstarter) If you want to know more info about anything lemme know. There's also video of each system running on my youtube channel "kevtris". 42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 If I were kevtris I would've ended that post w "*mic drop*". Awesome work and great input from the perspective of someone who has actually done the things the rvgs team claims they will do at some point after they get 2 million dollars. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevtris Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 yeah I just posted the pics in the gallery because I was not sure how to attach them directly in the post otherwise. I typed out most of my post and tried to insert the images and it blew away all of my text, so I had to do it again. d'oh. In any event, there it be :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Just thought I'd drop the bomb in here about how I have basically created what they are trying to create, but actually have gotten it manufactured and did it all on a shoestringish budget. Do it! Bring the cores! Make it! Sell it! I want one! Also, thank you for hammering home the reality (especially for people who don't have a grasp of this stuff) of just how ridiculous it is that they have no prototype... 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PikoInteractive Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Well, After seeing their IGG page, and how the FPGA is gone? or significantly reduced from their system, I can't stay silent any longer. As many know, there was talk of various "cores" on the RVGS, and that I was going to be the dork supplying them. Anyways, I thought I would inject a little bit of sanity into the whole "FPGA videogame system" realm and show off what I have been able to do alone, and without any kind of outside funding. I started working on FPGA videogame cores and systems back in 2004, when I made my first prototype "FPGA videogame" board. Back then, I was enamored with DB9 controllers (genesis, 2600, etc). So as can be seen in this prototype, I have two DB9 ports, a DB15 (for NES/SNES controller adapters, and "expansion"), an SD card and several other things. Namely VGA, composite, s-video, audio, PS/2 keyboard and mouse (lol). This system worked, and is what I developed the FPGA NES and FPGA 2600 on. Then in 2010, I decided to update my project and designed and built a second prototype system. Since plastic enclosure design was expensive, I made it fit inside an NES cartridge shell, and the connectors would stick out the back, where the cartridge would otherwise normally fit into the NES system. This prototype was used to design the rest of my systems (17 to date). (bonus image of that board outputting DVI to a flatpanel, running Kirby's Adventure) With this board, I finished up A LOT of systems. All of these systems are DONE and 100% finished and tested, ready to be targeted ("ported") to nearly anything with an FPGA inside it: * NES * SMS * Game Gear * Colecovision * Atari 2600 * Atari 7800 * Gameboy * Gameboy Colour (has 1 or 2 tiny bugs left, but 99.9% of the games run) * Intellivision (with Intellivoice, computer add-on, etc) * Odyssey^2 (with The Voice add-on) * Creativision (with tape drive support) * Arcadia 2001 * Adventure Vision * Videobrain * RCA Studio 2 (lul) * Fairchild Channel F * Supervision (crappyish LCD handheld) and some non-game things like an SNES SPC music player with visualizer, and a realtime mandelbrot zoomer/explorer. Again, all the above are done and ready to go and currently work on my homemade dev board. Then in 2014, I decided to make my third FPGA Videogame board.. the "possibly sellable" version. This board was a huge step up from the last, and is on par with what the RVGS has and can do IMO. The interesting part is this board exists and I have designed it and wrote code for it. Amusingly I have not actually stuffed one of the boards, but I will explain why later. The board was manufactured, and I did buy all the parts however. First, here's my "3D render" of the board, fresh out of Altium (circuit board program). The goals for this board were these: * Make something I can sell! * Include ALL the outputs possible for video and audio, but only it people paid extra to keep costs down if you were only interested in HDMI * 4 USB controller ports * High speed SD card interface (4 bit mode, 50MHz) * menu buttons for the user so he does not need to dork with the controller * RGB status LED * Expansion port for cartridge adapters (the right side connector) * Be able to run all the current cores + SNES, Genesis, Neogeo, and possibly PS1 era systems. * 1080p/60fps video output * Ethernet port The board is 6 layers, and was my first board in Altium after I switched over in 2014. It was a lot of fun to design and it helped me to learn Altium. I got the boards made which cost around $600 (for 10 of them), and bought parts (another 400-500 bucks). There's no less than TWO Cyclone V FPGAs on here- Itchy is designed to be the "user interface" and video scaler/processor, and Scratchy is the "engine" that does all the core running and nothing else. Before I had a chance to stuff the boards, I worked on that HiDefNES NES to HDMI adapter which was finished a month or so ago and released. I am glad I did, because I learned a lot of stuff about HDMI and can now revise my board to save a lot of parts and cost that I don't need. So, there will be another cheaper rev of this board now. I already have the parts, so I just need to design a newer PCB. Here's two views of the finished boards. I bought the main 6 layer board and some of the 4 layer "analog" boards, and plugged them together for these pictures: And if you're REALLY curious what my board stackup looks like, including internal layers you can see that here: http://gerblook.org/pcb/JTtikCWit4ezouDz9p37Fn#top-copper Click the links at the left to view the different layers. I noticed in the IGG that they are allocating around $100K(!) for prototype development. This is an insane amount of money, considering I am in for around $1000-1200 on my latest "advanced" prototypes- around 1% of what they are seeking. No, I am not going to start asking for money, just thought it was interesting to point out. Total development time from concept to prototype PCBs+parts was around 2-3 months. This included the design time in Altium, learning Altium, and getting the boards manufactured. I figured if I was going to sell this thing, I was damn well going to have a working prototype of what I wanted to manufacture, and have the software fully working too. As for the cartridge adapters, I came up with this idea almost 2 years ago, and the evidence can be seen on my above prototype PCB. I anticipated selling adapters in "groups". i.e. a single adapter might contain 3 or 4 cartridge ports each. The main stopper of course is packaging them into some kind of enclosure (requiring expensive molding, but today it isn't TOO bad). Frankly the electronics on something like this isn't too hairy, it always comes down to how you are going to package it, and who's going to want to pay for it. hehe. Just thought I'd drop the bomb in here about how I have basically created what they are trying to create, but actually have gotten it manufactured and did it all on a shoestringish budget. (If anyone thinks this doodad would fly with a $200-250 price point, lemme know. The only reason I have not tried to sell it was because I thought it was too much money to get a lot of support on i.e. Kickstarter) If you want to know more info about anything lemme know. There's also video of each system running on my youtube channel "kevtris". Kevtris I would be interested in bringing your project to retailer. But the system would have to be more/very user friendly, to be sold to the general public. Currently Building relationships with retailers and chain stores. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Do it! Bring the cores! Make it! Sell it! I want one! Also, thank you for hammering home the reality (especially for people who don't have a grasp of this stuff) of just how ridiculous it is that they have no prototype... I'll take one too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Kevin, Maybe you should ask Mike Kennedy about buying the jaguar molds? Oh and send your project to kickstarter. I bet you will get funded in no time flat. I for one will support you on day one. Shawn 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triverse Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 I collect a little more information/observation on this here - http://retrogamingmagazine.com/2015/09/19/retro-vgs-sees-immense-social-media-backlash-as-crowdfunding-project-begins/ Doesn't look good. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PikoInteractive Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Kevin, Maybe you should ask Mike Kennedy about buying the jaguar molds? Oh and send your project to kickstarter. I bet you will get funded in no time flat. I for one will support you on day one. Shawn Not even, There is cart molds for NES, SNES, Genesis, Famicom, top loader NES and even some other weird NES ones. And then, there are hundreds of different console molds in china you can choose from which will cost you nothing upfront and will cost you under 2 bucks each wholesale. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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