How has this not been posted yet? Retro VGS

[bretthorror]

I wonder if 20 years from now the little blip that the RVGS is will be a moment where this generation of retro gaming finally jumped the shark. Between mods, homebrews, flashcarts, emulation, controller adapters, prices likely peaking and everything else, this is the idea that went too far. An idea so preposterous rich and poor collectors alike said fuck this shit and laid any hopes of a new cart based console to rest forever. Not that RVGS is important, but we're kind of at the point where it's all been done. We can put most every retro game and emulator on a stick the size of 8 pubes. We've hacked systems to the levels of PS2/Wii where anyone with a few marbles rolling around upstairs can make those systems work with burned CDs/ISOs. I don't have interest in that... yet. But give me a decade.

 

I think we're hesitant to include PS2/Wii in classic gaming and for maybe good reason, but I think 20 years from now that era combined with a lot of the PS3/360 will be the last of the true retro systems because I don't see servers being able to let us play most games as they are intended. So the retro gaming could become the shit you could play without internet, and even then there'd be exceptions on PS2/PS3/Wii eras, but still enough juice to make them viably collectible systems. But you wouldn't want to collect all of their games because they take too long to finish and aren't pick up and play. I could be out of the loop here, but how many are really devoted to PS1 collecting? I'm sure some rich guy has the whole set, but do people, even PS1 fans, really want more than 100 or so games of that nature? 2D era collecting makes sense, the style of game was amazing and died. 3D era is like... everything that comes after is done better. Sure, there will always be 100, 200 "gotta experience 'em" games for each older 3D consoles, but aesthetically only nostalgia will be able to help them. Of course, there are 500 retro style games for a dollar each on Steam that are better than 80% of 2D retro libraries and no one of this collecting era acknowledges that, so maybe I'm giving people too much benefit of the doubt.

[leods]

 

 

I think we're hesitant to include PS2/Wii in classic gaming

ps2 is 2000 and wii is 2006. Different gens. But yeah. I don't really care about this whole Retro or not. I really don't. But I have a 360 because I can still buy actual physical games for it. On the new consoles pretty much everything Needs a patch. But People are buying it. Either People are too dumb to realyze those boxes and disks they have are just Tokens, or they just don't care.

 

I'd say more, but unfortunately at this Point it's useless. We don't have any idea what they're doing. They're not keeping anyone up to date witht heir Progress. So what's there to actually discuss?

[Raticon]

When i first saw the RVGS i thought it would be a super-fun idea. Then i saw that it would cost like a PS4 or Xbox One without having anything to really justify the price.

 

They are basically offering a 1990 technology console for a 2015 price.

[iamnotagoomba]

Serious question:- if (irregardless of whether they can/will) they managed to lower the cost to $150 and the target to $1,000,000 and obviously have a prototype then what realistic chance have of they of achieving this new hypothetical goal on Kickstarter?

[FUBARofPittsburgh]

Serious question:- if (irregardless of whether they can/will) they managed to lower the cost to $150 and the target to $1,000,000 and obviously have a prototype then what realistic chance have of they of achieving this new hypothetical goal on Kickstarter?

 

Well, with all the bad PR, I would say slim, but not impossible. At $150.00 people would probably be willing to take the risk.

[dj_convoy]

Too many of the problems will still remain (unclear goals of the system, no exclusive games or at least games worth buying a new system for, etc.) even if that magic number is reached. SEGA'S ON BOARD, GUYS.

[leods]

Serious question:- if (irregardless of whether they can/will) they managed to lower the cost to $150 and the target to $1,000,000 and obviously have a prototype then what realistic chance have of they of achieving this new hypothetical goal on Kickstarter?

 

TL;DR: They never had any change and never will.

 

The Long Story:

 

Your question makes Little sense. The Problem is not, and never was, the Price itself. Neither was it the Goal they were aiming for, The question is, what are they offering? If they put up pretty much the same Project they had before for 150 each System and a 1mil Goal I think they'll still fail. But the Problem is, I think not too many People want to have a Jaguar with an android phone that doesn't run andoid in it running Steam games out of an SD Card shaped like a Jaguar cartridge. That obviously on a crap chinese generic WiiU USB Controller. Seems confusing enough? Yeah. But they think they're bringing simplicity.

 

What's the Point?

 

They would actually have to come up with more than "but we have cartridges" to make this worth anyone's time at any Price Point. But when I asked them What they offer besides cartridges, Mike answered: "but we have cartridges!"

 

So yeah. Take it as you will. Maybe there are 6.666 collectards out there who really Need to buy another cartridge based console, as if collecting cartridges wasn't expensive enough already.

 

I'm all for a new gaming console for oldschool games. But I want something good. Something that when I look at I don't think: "Crap, that Looks like it was put together by some 10yo in a wet dream."

 

And I don't think they're even trying to make this beter. I think they're really focusing on just bringing the Price down and making the prototype so they can put this on Kickstarter. They Claim that's what made them fail first time around, so that's what they'll adress.

[Andromeda Stardust]

RetroVGS has nine lives, like a cat. No matter how hard they try, they just can't kill it. I think they've already wasted three or four of it's lives so far but have a way to go yet before the RetroVGS cat is dead. Need to stock up on popcorn for Act II. As they say, it ain't over till the drunk fat lady falls off her barstool...

[PlaysWithWolves]

Retroland made real: Man opens up retro video game bar & lounge.

 

A couple things of note: Many of his games are downloaded ("3,000 games") and he formerly was a postman who was found hoarding others' undelivered mail.

[MotoRacer]

There's a serious problem with this system that not many people seem to talk about. One of the biggest problems for me is that they started with the shell. That's supposed to be the last thing you design....built around the hardware. Instead, they purchased the tooling for a system shell because they had the opportunity, then tried making a system idea they could shove into it.

 

It also explains their use of a poorly made third party Wii U controller. I just don't think they care outside of the fact they can say they own the Jaguar's casing. They're going into this for all the wrong reasons.

[leods]

There's a serious problem with this system that not many people seem to talk about. One of the biggest problems for me is that they started with the shell. That's supposed to be the last thing you design....built around the hardware. Instead, they purchased the tooling for a system shell because they had the opportunity, then tried making a system idea they could shove into it.

 

It also explains their use of a poorly made third party Wii U controller. I just don't think they care outside of the fact they can say they own the Jaguar's casing. They're going into this for all the wrong reasons.

Absolutely. And since their dream is that this Thing will get big, the extra costs of a larger PCB, of all the extra unecessary plastic and obviously the compromises in design they'll have to make to work with those Shells will end up bringing costs up and not down.

 

But now we're sounding like we're talking about an actual Project. This doesn't look like it was put together by a 10yo just by coincidence you know? The lead guy in the Project has absolutely no clue what he's doing.

 

And with all due respect to Steve Woita, if he's very competent he should just try to green light his games on steam. It's not amazing, but good games do make their Money. Or just put the games up on GOG.com. If you actually have a good game that works porperly it's not that hard. And if it's a success and you feel there's an audience for that just make and sell your physical copy of the game for any platform you want. There's nothing keeping anyone from doing that.

 

Oh. Sorry. There I go again, pretending anything should make sense in this Topic. Sorry. I'm not goint to try to push my boring logic and destroy all the fun in Retroland.

 

Hurray for cartridges!

[Keatah]

Hurray for games that exist!

[FUBARofPittsburgh]

Why not just start a company that makes new games for old systems? Clone systems are so common that we don't need another one.

[Dan Iacovelli]

theres a saying that goes there is no such thing as bad publicity,because it still makes you talk about it. I had tons of bad reports about video game summit and yet we are still going.

[StopDrop&Retro]

Why not just start a company that makes new games for old systems? Clone systems are so common that we don't need another one.

 

Too much effort. He couldn't care less about the games, he doesn't want to develop them even though he has the cartridge molds. Mike & Co. just want to make a bare bones device that would barely be considered a game console today and hope they can "go viral" and reel in buyers by praising its simplicity and "retro" appeal. And how convenient that it doesn't need to be updated. Just keep the production line going, never look back and rake in the cash. He's said before that he's inspired by Nintendo's early success with the NES but he ignores the part where Nintendo was making arcade games and even ports to the Atari 2600 and Colecovision before they made their own console, hell they were making card games before videogames even existed.

 

 

theres a saying that goes there is no such thing as bad publicity,because it still makes you talk about it. I had tons of bad reports about video game summit and yet we are still going.

 

That could be true, but an event is different than a product. If you get a crowd to show up to your event, even out of curiosity, it's a success. For a [expensive] crowdfunding product it doesn't matter how many people visit the page, if you don't reach your goal you fail.

 

It's also clear that he's not getting the publicity he wants. I'm sure he wanted news outlets to pick up on his question block tease as soon as it went up but even among Facebook followers the response was less enthused than you would expect. Although I'll give him (or Mr. Herman) credit that this tease was a great idea and the change of tact where they don't show us anything until it's actually working is a welcomed improvement. But things are just going to go back to normal or get worse if the system they reveal is greeted with less "wow!" and more "... oh..."

Edited November 29, 2015 by StopDrop&Retro

[bretthorror]

The reason this thread has had the longevity on my behalf is I can't figure out what their team is thinking - ever and for some strange reason I can't look away because the whole thing just doesn't make sense. We've brought up what FUBAR mentioned a dozen times before and I just get perplexed when I think about the ideas this team has and it someone possesses me like I'm in an Exorcist movie to post. The most mainstream press they got was the Pat & Ian podcast, but they focused mainly on lack of a prototype, why pay money when you can buy digital cheaper, and people not having nostalgia because they never grew up with it. All obviously valid and important questions and opinions, but for me I just don't understand what the team is thinking when trying to look at things from their own perspective.

 

Best case scenario, the RVGS has FPGAs for all systems and becomes THE retro console. They could control the homebrew market in theory. But I don't think they're smart enough to realize no one is going to buy the RVGS cart of an NES homebrew, they're gonna buy the NES cart. So unless they start selling real NES carts or people want to go to their system, they have nothing but hardware/add-on profits, which can't amount to jack shit. They have a system without games. Any games they might get are available elsewhere to begin with. Most of the core cartridge market doesn't even give a shit about modern retro style games.

 

There is absolutely no domino effect as to how this system will work. It's needless hardware for the sake of hardware, and people still might buy that at the right price, but then you need a killer app to make it go viral or enough good exclusive games to make it worthwhile to own. With their delusions of grandeur, you'd think they'd have this mapped out, but they don't. Everything involved in the console is a wait and see approach, but with your money. And they have no interest in providing people with anything aside from cartridges when I'm getting Castlevania: Mirror of Fate HD on Steam for $2.75. And these new games have DLC that you won't get on your RVGS, which was brought up by Ian on that podcast. I think they actually thought, all right, we'll release a system and people will just collect the games that come out on it, whatever they will be. Or maybe they genuinely believe Konami is gonna fire up a new Castlevania just for them when they don't even give a shit about the guy who made Castlevania. This is where Retroland was coined - because these supposed professionals are not living on the same planet as us. It's true that retro gamers like carts, but the problem with their invention is it's sweet on paper, but the people most likely to buy the RVGS don't give a shit about new retro games because they only want games they grew up with and were familiar with. People like me who are into the modern retro indie games see no real reason to spend $40 on Xeodrifter on cart when it's on sale on Steam for $2.24.

 

StopDrop got me hardcore into IndieBox, but for all I've talked about it, no one else has given a shit about it at the whopping price of $20 per month for a boxed, physical game, physical soundtrack, physical manual & extras. That tells you exactly what this audience thinks of physical retro indie games. They don't give a shit because who needs a well reviewed, new boxed retro indie game for $20 to play when there are nine 3-D Tic Tac Toe variants to collect!

[Andromeda Stardust]

Why not just start a company that makes new games for old systems? Clone systems are so common that we don't need another one.

But half the time the new homebrews coming out don't even work on clones.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

It's also clear that he's not getting the publicity he wants. I'm sure he wanted news outlets to pick up on his question block tease as soon as it went up but even among Facebook followers the response was less enthused than you would expect.

Yeah, imagine Mario's face when he hits that question block and instead of a mushroom or coins, a smelly turd pops out! Keep polishing, RetroVGS, but you can't turn poop into gold...

[godslabrat]

Why not just start a company that makes new games for old systems? Clone systems are so common that we don't need another one.

Seriously. If you want a new cart system, go to one of the clone makers and order a custom batch of Sega Genesis knockoffs. You already have a proven design and a massive install base and existing library. Now just print those games.

 

It might not be guaranteed success, but the above plan eliminates 99% of the problems that face the RGVS, including all of the ones they brought on themselves.

[jaybird3rd]

That's why I said early on that the RVGS project should really focus on bringing back an existing vintage platform rather than trying to establish a new one. Just about all the popular platforms have some sort of user community and homebrew activity, and with any of them, you'd be starting with a proven design and a set of mature development tools, along with existing games that could probably be re-licensed for less than developing a new lineup of launch titles from scratch. The Amiga was the platform I was talking up in an earlier thread. I suppose a Genesis clone would fit the bill, too, but it would be nice to see something a little more unique than the plethora of other Genesis clones already out there.

[leods]

 

the change of tact where they don't show us anything until it's actually working is a welcomed improvement.

 

I completely disagree. First: They didn't Show what was going on first time around. Mike talked about a bunch of ideas that were rolling around and they didin#t even know if they were going to be implemented, but in the months Prior to the release of the campaign there was literally no technical Information about the System at all. Hell, the indiegogo Project didin't have Hardware specs descripted! So no, first time around they didin't tell us anything. This is not a Change, it's how it's been the first time around. And secondly, I think it's really bad, because they should be telling People what's going on if they want to go to crowdfunding. It's called transparency, and is the most Basic element crowdfunding should be based uppon.

 

And that's not all. If they were actually keeping People up to date about their plans when they said the 450 Price Point they were aiming for it would be almost immediately clear no one wants to pay that. When they respond by saying 350, People would still say: But you promised 180, that's why we were interested in the first place. Make it 180 AND good or just F'*!"§ off, because anything besides that is just ridiculous. And instead of having failed at an indiegogo and instead of having generated that huge backlash and horrible damage controll, they'd have the Feedback they Need before any of that happened, and they would just go back to the drawing board.

 

To me the silence right now isn't a sign they learned anything. It's just a sign they still haven't got a clue what they're doing. What do they think, someone's going to "copy their idea"? They don't have an idea. They have a System made with off the shelf parts and cartridges. There's nothing new about it. Everything they've ever shown can be done by anyone with knowledge of gaming Hardware, and HAS already been done a bunch of times. What's there to hide?

 

I think some People don't realyze, the only Point of this Project in the first place is having enough People getting on board. The only Thing they ever came up with is: "if we sell 10.000 copies of this, it's going to be worth developing games for it". Yeah Einstein. Everyone knows that. That's exactly the F Problem. How do you sell 10.000 Units of an oldschool cartridge based System? Well, aparently they thought calling the few People who would ever buy such a Thing Trolls and drunken ranters would magically work, but somehow it didin't. I really don't know where things went wrong.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Nicely said Leods.

[toiletunes]

This might help, it's everything they're missing:

 

 

[Great Hierophant]

Ouya's Kickstarter generated a huge $8.5M Kickstarter and they released a $99 game console based off an established Android ecosystem. Unfortunately that was not enough to guarantee sustainable success, in two years it was dead in the water and its assets were sold a little later. The company shipped 58,000 consoles but its largest game reportedly only sold 7,000 copies.

 

Say that they can get the RetroVGS's price down to $199 and raise $500,000 for a Kickstarter after building a prototype. WIth that money, they can probably release 1,500 consoles. Say they get the Shovel Knight author to release a cartridge version of the game. The Shovel Knight 3DS version, which may be the only physical release of the game out there, goes for $24.99. Say you sell it for double on the RetroVGS, $49.99. Of that amount, you can claim maybe $20 profit per cartridge sold. You end up with $30,000 at absolute best. With that chicken feed, very few developers would port a game to the system.

[godslabrat]

Even now, post-indiegogo, the only bits we hear are how they've refocused their company name and gotten their "board of directors" together. So they have all the useless talking heads of a major corporation, but no actual product or business plan. This is exactly the opposite of what they should be doing. At this stage, anyone on the team who can't produce hardware or software is a waste of space.