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How has this not been posted yet? Retro VGS


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#1276 Giltygear OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:24 PM

 

Not necessarily. There will be people who haven't gone through the forum debate cycle (mostly here and NeoGaf I assume) and will get notice of the Indiegogo and perhaps not know to ask the critical questions. We all can't be informed about everything, so I can't say those people - who likely had their own good intentions much like the Retro console people themselves (no matter how botched to this point) - deserve anything negative. In any case, I think we can all agree that a simple prototype with final specs - even if it's not what the manufactured/refined version would be - would have headed off a lot of the vitriol and realistic concerns.

 

Instead of actually PRODUCING a working prototype, hes asked for money. If someone will still blindly give him money, knowing full well that the only tangible thing thats been produced has been empty shells and some 3D renders, then I have a fantastic bridge to sell them.

 

 

Hello Everyone! The time is finally now and we will be activating our Indiegogo Campaign tomorrow (Saturday) morning at 9 AM Pacific Time.

Indiegogo had been courting us to use their service the past few months and have extended to us some accommodations that were very enticing. In addition, we have also had discussions with Kickstarter about their policy which requires hardware campaigns to show off explicit demonstrations of a prototype. We have since found a few running hardware campaigns on Kickstarter that show nothing of the sort and have questioned them about it, only to find you really don't need to show a working prototype, just to be clear and upfront with backers so they know exactly where you are in the development process. We asked if they would then reword their policy to reflect this and at this point they have not done so.

Since we didn't want to confuse anyone where we were in this process, we feel we just can't use Kickstarter while that policy is worded as such and thus have moved to the other very large crowdfunding company, Indiegogo.

There has been some confusion with how Indiegogo operates as they offer both a flexible and fixed funding option. We, of course, are using their "fixed" funding options which works just like Kickstarter, in that, we need to raise our minimum amount in order to fund the campaign. If that is not reached any of you who back this project get a refund right away for the amount you pledged. Here is a link on their website describing that process: https://support.indi....526876-Refunds

In any event, we are ready to take RETRO VGS to that next level and put all of you on the front lines with weekly updates and videos as we enter the costly prototyping phase and eventually the production and shipping phase.

We hope to see you all on the other side! And thanks again for all your support and feedback.

 

Sounds to me like:

 

"Its Kickstarter's fault, so we're moving to Indiegogo.  We'll give you weekly updates about our inkjet PCBs.  Don't forget to give us money!"

 

This is for Mike Kennedy/Parrothead (honor system, folks, for HIS EYES ONLY)

 

Spoiler



#1277 cimerians OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:25 PM

My prediction, (hope I'm wrong) is that they won't have anything in one month and then its too late, they keep your money (if it funds). If it doesn't  fund everyone gets their cash back but I can't see this coming out for a long time and by then they keep your money and what will you end up getting a year or two from now?

 

Sorry been down that road. I'll wait till after the campaign and then IF it succeeds and a few years later IF it ever gets to the point where it is what they say it will be, maybe just maybe, but not at that pricetag up front. No way.

 

Not sure about Indiegogo but on Kickstarter I had one project successfully fund and the team pulled the plug on it. They did refund everyone's money after the successful campaign but I'm not sure if they would promise that.

 

Ex. Six months later: "Hey we ran into a snag, legal trouble. The whole project is cancelled. Everyone get's their money back."

 

Can they honestly say this six months from now? Kind of don't think so.



#1278 madman OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:26 PM

Some pretty interesting comments about Indiegogo. My favorite comment so far:

Well, I'm out. Indiegogo charges as soon as you pledge. Would've fully backed if it were kickstarter, which you confirmed it to be just a couple weeks ago. Jesus christ, I've been giving you guys the benefit of the doubt on everything, but I'm realizing that you guys just suck at business and public relations. I can't trust literally anything you say at this point. Hope it works out, but this supporter is done with the lack of direction and double talk


#1279 Greg2600 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:30 PM

It's an IndieGoGo campaign, not Kickstarter, but it's fixed so if they don't meet the goal you're all refunded.  Despite this, many have whined about Indiegogo taking the money upfront, even though it's refunded later.  The childish cry babying on the RVGS Facebook post is so ridiculous that it may motivate me to SUPPORT the campaign simply to stick to to the whiners.  It's what I loathe most about classic gaming, the persistent fatalist sissies.  WHA HA HA HA.



#1280 cimerians OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:32 PM

It's an IndieGoGo campaign, not Kickstarter, but it's fixed so if they don't meet the goal you're all refunded.  Despite this, many have whined about Indiegogo taking the money upfront, even though it's refunded later.  The childish cry babying on the RVGS Facebook post is so ridiculous that it may motivate me to SUPPORT the campaign simply to stick to to the whiners.  It's what I loathe most about classic gaming, the persistent fatalist sissies.  WHA HA HA HA.

 

Read my post above. They can still keep your money and not deliver. It's not sissies. It's money.

 

I care about it and who I give it to.



#1281 Greg2600 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:33 PM

Read my post above. They can still keep your money and not deliver.

 

That can happen, as you wrote, on IGG or KS just the same.  I've got a few KS sitting there for like 4 years now, still haven't had the finished product completely.



#1282 StopDrop&Retro OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:39 PM

Damn. That Facebook support dried up quicker than pussy to a retro gamer.



#1283 PlaysWithWolves OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:39 PM

Some pretty interesting comments about Indiegogo. My favorite comment so far:

 

Unfortunately, I can't disagree with said commenter.



#1284 cimerians OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:45 PM

 

That can happen, as you wrote, on IGG or KS just the same.  I've got a few KS sitting there for like 4 years now, still haven't had the finished product completely.

 

 

I know.....I just think both sides have valid arguments. Pessimists and Optimists. Like I mentioned I didn't really feel the mag was what I expected it to be so I fall under the former title right away.

 

I just think (IMO) they have gone about this whole project the wrong way before it's even begun. 

 

Well people care enough I guess, this thread is god awful long. 



#1285 Mux OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:50 PM

So is their issue that KS requires an actual working prototype? At least that gives a potential backer SOME peace of mind. I looked at the translucent renders in the hopes that the PCB could potentially be real but nah, there aren't even any connectors that line up.

 

What I don't understand is why Steve Woita is involved with this and (potentially) get a bad name if this shit blows up. That leads me to believe that either a) they actually have something up and running but just suck at marketing or b) he's struck some sort of deal to let them take the fall and gets a cut or c) he's genuinely sold out and is blinded by a potential payout..

 

I hope it's option 'a'

 

-Mux


Edited by Mux, Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:51 PM.


#1286 Greg2600 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:54 PM

 

I know.....I just think both sides have valid arguments. Pessimists and Optimists. Like I mentioned I didn't really feel the mag was what I expected it to be so I fall under the former title right away.

 

I just think (IMO) they have gone about this whole project the wrong way before it's even begun. 

 

Well people care enough I guess, this thread is god awful long. 

 

I agree on all points.  My eye roll has to do with people who just screamed they won't support an IGG but will a KS.  That's nonsense, they were never backing it in the first place, and the project could fail (with money kept) on either service.

 

So is their issue that KS requires an actual working prototype? At least that gives a potential backer SOME peace of mind. I looked at the translucent renders in the hopes that the PCB could potentially be real but nah, there aren't even any connectors that line up.

 

What I don't understand is why Steve Woita is involved with this and (potentially) get a bad name if this shit blows up. That leads me to believe that either a) they actually have something up and running but just suck at marketing or b) he's struck some sort of deal to let them take the fall and gets a cut or c) he's genuinely sold out and is blinded by a potential payout..

 

I hope it's a...

 

-Mux

 

I think Mike was being extra careful (given the criticism) that all bases are covered.  Kickstarter's rules aren't clearly defined on this.  I would be SHOCKED if they didn't already have a working prototype, these aren't amateurs.  Whether the system is a long term success, I'm highly skeptical, but I am far less doubtful about it being completed and shipped.



#1287 cimerians OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:55 PM

Definitely hope its option A.



#1288 Atlantis OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:58 PM

Well people care enough I guess, this thread is god awful long. 

People watched the Greek tragedies back in the day, and today you watch this.



#1289 StopDrop&Retro OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:59 PM

Some pretty interesting comments about Indiegogo. My favorite comment so far:

 

The top response to it is pretty good too:

 

I agree 100%. My friends laughed at me when I told them my hype for this a few months back. As time continues I think they were right... unsure emoticon

 

 

So is their issue that KS requires an actual working prototype? At least that gives a potential backer SOME peace of mind. I looked at the translucent renders in the hopes that the PCB could potentially be real but nah, there aren't even any connectors that line up.

 

Those translucent renders actually had the original Jaguar board in them.

 

 

I think Mike was being extra careful (given the criticism) that all bases are covered.  Kickstarter's rules aren't clearly defined on this.  I would be SHOCKED if they didn't already have a working prototype, these aren't amateurs.  Whether the system is a long term success, I'm highly skeptical, but I am far less doubtful about it being completed and shipped.

 

Nope. No prototype even attempted yet. From their facebook announcement:

In any event, we are ready to take RETRO VGS to that next level and put all of you on the front lines with weekly updates and videos as we enter the costly prototyping phase and eventually the production and shipping phase.


Edited by StopDrop&Retro, Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:00 PM.


#1290 PlaysWithWolves OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:05 PM

Nope. No prototype even attempted yet. From their facebook announcement:

 

I know it's hip to dogpile them, but earlier I did point out it sounded like they they do have an eval board.

If they do, then why they refuse to show pictures or video of it working is beyond my grasp.



#1291 Atlantis OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:08 PM

John Hernandez So kickstarter says they need a working prototype to sign up but there are some that do not comply with their policy and gets away with it? That does not sound very logical to me.

Maybe they could give some examples of who ran successful campaigns against the KS policy, since it sounds taken from the air to me.



#1292 Mux OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:08 PM

'As we enter the costly prototyping phase'...

 

Erm, aside from BGA's and other hard to solder components, this only becomes 'costly' if you start doing overnight runs and invest in your own equipment. Even then, you're not looking at $2-3m. For less than a grand you can have a pretty decent board. Tooling and injection molding would be expensive but they managed to get that cost reduced. If prototyping is MORE expensive that the original $500k anticipated for tooling, they're padding out shit big-time.

 

I've worked in environments with inhouse equipment and where PCB's were ordered overnight for the sum of about $1k/turn. The shouldn't have to. Plenty of places that'll do a turn in a few days but nowhere NEAR that. Even for 8+ layer boards.

 

They NEED to show something that works. Like I said earlier, even if it's on a devboard. And puhleez don't try to pull the wool over peoples' eyes because it'll backfire massively. So here's the $64k question. If they DID have something (anything), they could have done a KS and gotten a lot more backers. What gives?

 

-Mux



#1293 StopDrop&Retro OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:13 PM

 

I know it's hip to dogpile them, but earlier I did point out it sounded like they they do have an eval board.

If they do, then why they refuse to show pictures or video of it working is beyond my grasp.

 

There was a lengthy discussion about it on the NeoGAF forum. They could use an eval board to get the project up and running but they consider such a thing to be "smoke and mirrors." Source: http://www.neogaf.co...&postcount=1163

 

Instead they feel they are "light years ahead" of a project like OUYA because they are skipping that step entirely and met with a PCB manufacturer. Seriously, I'm not making that up.



#1294 PlaysWithWolves OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:17 PM

That was the post to which I was referring.

They say they have an eval board.

If they feel taking pictures of an eval board setup to be smoke-and-mirrors, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 

I think they need pictures and a video of it actually playing games, but it's not my project.

 

 

 

There was a lengthy discussion about it on the NeoGAF forum. They could use an eval board to get the project up and running but they consider such a thing to be "smoke and mirrors." Source: http://www.neogaf.co...&postcount=1163

 

Instead they feel they are "light years ahead" of a project like OUYA because they are skipping that step entirely and met with a PCB manufacturer. Seriously, I'm not making that up.



#1295 madman OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:31 PM

Also, they show a menu on a TV. Nothing there is a working prototype. All smoke and mirrors.

This coming from people who show footage of games running on other consoles in their "sizzle video." 



#1296 PikoInteractive OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:34 PM

I only have a couple of comments.

 

If this console would have been at around 150 retail TOPS; it would be pretty easy to get it done with about 50K (that's about 5000 consoles and a 1000 carts for each title or so). Also a working prototype is crucial. Small limited kickstarter with numbered/special edition to raise some production funds ONLY. (initial investment will be recouped once you start selling to the general public)

 

Then meet with retailers and get the console in chain stores. Easy peasy.

 

The thing here is that they are trying to become a Nintendo in the 90s (although backwards, Magazine first then console). They are trying the control the market; they are having game developers go through them to make carts etc.

 

They should have hired a business development guy for their team to get in stores. Once you know how to get in products to retailers, you can do so for any sort of product, even if it is pretty unique/niche.

 

Also, I don't know why they chose SNA3D from our library, I didn't pushed that game into the RVGS. I wanted Dorke and Ymp but oh well. 


Edited by PikoInteractive, Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:34 PM.


#1297 Mux OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:34 PM

I'd pick Digikey, but hey.. I sometimes order parts from Mouser.. :-)

 

-Mux



#1298 Kosmic Stardust OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:35 PM

 

"Finished filming" = The 3D software finally finished rendering the movie.

I couldn't have said it better myself! :lol:



#1299 sh3-rg OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:38 PM

Damn. That Facebook support dried up quicker than pussy to a retro gamer.

JAB91rP.gif

 

Getting hot in here...



#1300 JamesD OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:50 PM

Fraud is a bit of a strong word for me at this point. But I would sign off on misguided, ill-conceived or trainwreck. I really like Mike and hope he doesn't wreck himself on this deal. When I said fraud is a strong word, I guess I mean it is too strong to describe the intention of the people involved, but it could very well become an apt legal description if things go terribly wrong.

If they don't deliver that is exactly what it will be.

http://www.geekwire....funded-project/






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