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The Jaguar version of Rayman Conspiracy


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#26 Zerosquare OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:18 AM

Yeah, both sources aren't known for their reliability, are they? :D

Anyway, they agree on the September 1995 release date for the Jaguar version.
According to Wikipedia, the PS1 USA version was released the following day, but the PS1 european version was only released two months later. So that explains the apparent disagreement.

#27 madman OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:26 AM

OK, so I did some more digging on this. The earliest I've seen someone say they owned the PSX Rayman was on 9/9/1995. It appears that the official release date for the Jag version was 9/19/1995, as stated above, but some stores sold it prior to then. I couldn't find any exact dates, but the point is there was no large delta in the release dates. I also found this information:

The folks at Ubisoft had an online conference this week and put to
rest the debate about which version of Rayman was considered best.
When questioned about it, Ubisoft stated that their playtesters
favored the version for the Jaguar over those for the PSX and Saturn.

Ubisoft also mentioned that one of the main reasons for favoring
Jag Rayman was "controlability" which was supposed to have been one
factor that some certain (ahem!) people/magazines took issue with.

Some other things learned about Rayman was that Ubisoft has been
developing the game for the 32/64-bit systems simultaneously for
more than a year.

The programmer for Jag Rayman also attended the conference and made
a surprising revelation.  The 68000 CPU was utilized for 70% of the
code of Jag Rayman!  So it shows as programmers migrate to using
more and more of the RISC CPUs and less of the 68000, the Jag can
match or overpower the PSX and Saturn at various tasks.

Of course, this is just some guy talking about this, but in 1995 I don't see a reason to lie about a conference. 



#28 madman OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:36 AM

I haven't seen exact sales figures for the PS1 version of Rayman, but it appears that, at minimum, over 6 million units were sold on that platform alone. Given the user base, I'd be shocked if the Jaguar version moved more than 50,000 units at the most optimistic numbers (meaning nearly 1 out of every 2 Jaguar owners bought a copy).

Where did you find the >6 million number? Here's a press release from Ubisoft in June 1996 saying that a combined 130,000 copies were sold over all 3 platforms. So that's about 9 months worth of sales. Are you saying that an additional almost 6 million were sold on the PSX alone after the first 9 months of its release?

 

LOS ANGELES, CA (June, 1996) ­ It's a bird! It's a plane! It's RaymanTM, the video game superhero, who has just taken a flying leap from his success on the Sony PlayStation, Sega Saturn, and Atari Jaguar platforms to bring his eye-popping adventures to PC gamers everywhere!

 

This trailblazing graphic adventure game from Ubi Soft Entertainment portrays our hero battling more than 60 bizarre creatures tucked away in six different worlds. The bad guys range from giant percussion drums to fierce musical notes, and RaymanTM himself can hover, fly and turn into a projectile.

 

On the way to defeating his enemies, rescuing his friends and restoring peace and harmony to the universe, RaymanTM offers the gamer up to 70 levels of challenging non-linear gameplay and the ability to acquire and accumulate unique powers as the game advances. Hidden passages and traps lead to unexpected combats, and your enemies' ability to learn playing styles and fight back intelligently adds to the challenge.

 

The game features vivid graphics, CD-quality sound, up to four independently scrolling backdrops and stunning animations using millions of colors with 60 frames per second.

 

Since September, RaymanTM for the Sony PlayStation, Sega Saturn and Atari Jaquar has sold over 130,000 units. The title already has won a 1995 Parents' Choice Award and the Game of the Month award in Electronic Gaming Monthly for the Sony PlayStation version, Best New Character, Best Music and Best Character in the 1996 Video Game Buyer's Guide, Best Jaguar Game of the Year in Game Players, as well as rave reviews in magazines nationwide.

 

Pre-launch demo disks of the PC version of RaymanTM are available to consumers in gaming publications as well as in major retail stores nationwide. Rayman has an MSRP of $49.95. For more information, Ubi Soft Entertainment can be reached at 415/547-4000 or 800/UBI-SOFT or visit the company's Web Site at http://www.ubisoft.com/.



#29 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:52 AM

Time to start 'wrapping things up' on AA forum :-)

 
Interesting coder quote there claiming as coders migrated to more and more of the RISC chips, instead of using the 68000 so much, Jaguar could potentially out do Saturn/PS1 on certain tasks...
 
As that goes again'st very reasons detailed in the RG Making of..i linked to earlier (PS1 quoted as being much more powerful) so again here curious case of 2 'conflicting' views on a subject, which is the 'correct' version is in the hands of the reader, but both documented (?) claims.Trouble with the above is, it's a tad too vague in places as it does'nt mention specifics in terms of just which areas, so reader is left guessing.
 
I assume Jaguar could handle more colours on-screen than Saturn/PS1 version? that sort of thing? no idea how it'd compare in areas like parallax scrolling, animation speed etc.


#30 madman OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:55 AM

 

Time to start 'wrapping things up' on AA forum :-)

 
Interesting coder quote there claiming as coders migrated to more and more of the RISC chips, instead of using the 68000 so much, Jaguar could potentially out do Saturn/PS1 on certain tasks...

The quote about matching the Saturn/PSX wasn't from a coder, just from the person who attended the online conference. The quote from the programmer was about the percentage of code using the 68k. Even in 1995 the Jag had delusional fanboys convinced of its unharnessed power.



#31 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:58 AM

The canned 2D version of Rayman 2 mentioned earlier, bit off-topic, but before Fade To Black (PS1/PC) Delphine did contemplate doing 'Flashback 2' in 2D.Initally using same viewpoint as Flashback, then a top-down, Gauntlet style view with some pseudo-3D sections, before finally going full 3D.So Rayman was'nt the 2D game to under go changes for it's sequel on the PS1.

 

Source: Thierry Gaerthner, Technical Producer, talking in 1997.



#32 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:03 PM

@madman:Ahhh, i see.So this is in a similar style of reporting as Atari User's reporter who 'saw' Adam Caveman running on the A8 at an Atari Show... :-)

 

Reporter here might of been better off saying something like..'current Jaguar projects use around/anything upto or above 70% of the coding being done to the 68000, but as we hopefully see more and more migrate to using the RISC Chips, we should expect to see improved performance as the hardware potential is tapped into'

 

That way, he (?) is'nt bigging up expectations of Jaguar suddenly matching Saturn/PS1, let alone beating it, just saying there's lot of room for more efficent coding routines on the Jaguar.



#33 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:18 PM

Where did you find the >6 million number? Here's a press release from Ubisoft in June 1996 saying that a combined 130,000 copies were sold over all 3 platforms. So that's about 9 months worth of sales. Are you saying that an additional almost 6 million were sold on the PSX alone after the first 9 months of its release?

 

 

 

It was an extrapolation from Wikipedia from this article referenced: http://www.eurogamer...ew_part1?page=3 . It was supposedly the best selling PS1 game in the UK with 5 million+ units sold. I figured it had to be good for at least a million more elsewhere in the world, though I could be over- or under-valuing it. Obviously those sales wouldn't have happened by 1996, but over the full lifetime of the SKU.

 

In any case, considering the PS1 sold more in its first month in the US alone than the Jaguar did over its entire existence, the point stands that while the Jaguar was a fine choice for proving the technology, Ubisoft gambled correctly in making it a launch title (in the US) for the PS1 and releasing most other versions around the same time.



#34 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:26 PM

 

Time to start 'wrapping things up' on AA forum :-)

 
Interesting coder quote there claiming as coders migrated to more and more of the RISC chips, instead of using the 68000 so much, Jaguar could potentially out do Saturn/PS1 on certain tasks...
 
As that goes again'st very reasons detailed in the RG Making of..i linked to earlier (PS1 quoted as being much more powerful) so again here curious case of 2 'conflicting' views on a subject, which is the 'correct' version is in the hands of the reader, but both documented (?) claims.Trouble with the above is, it's a tad too vague in places as it does'nt mention specifics in terms of just which areas, so reader is left guessing.
 
I assume Jaguar could handle more colours on-screen than Saturn/PS1 version? that sort of thing? no idea how it'd compare in areas like parallax scrolling, animation speed etc.

 

 

I'd like to know from a truly unbiased technically minded source if indeed there's any area where the Jaguar could match or exceed the Saturn or PS1. Even the on-screen colors thing is a bit murky, because it's my understanding that the 3DO had a mode where it could push far more colors on-screen than the Saturn or PS1 (which I thought had higher color counts than the Jaguar), but based on the specs, all of the theoretical limits in terms of practical use of colors is probably about the same. Naturally, none of that means that the programmers used certain color modes or that a particular multi-platform game was programmed to a particular system's strengths.



#35 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:35 PM

Not sure if this 'helps', but Delphine said they were'nt in a position where they could do something like Flashback every couple of years, that would allow them to continue with other developments comfortably, as they had to make a living...so they'd manage 2 developments simultaneously in order to reduce the financial risk.This did'nt mean development time would be shorter, but at end of the day there'd be 2 products on the shelves....

 

So applying this 'logic' it'd make sense for Ubisoft to put Jaguar Rayman, in with developing for Saturn+PS1 versions when time was right and thus get all 3 versions sat on the shelves roughly around same time.



#36 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:43 PM

Not sure if this 'helps', but Delphine said they were'nt in a position where they could do something like Flashback every couple of years, that would allow them to continue with other developments comfortably, as they had to make a living...so they'd manage 2 developments simultaneously in order to reduce the financial risk.This did'nt mean development time would be shorter, but at end of the day there'd be 2 products on the shelves....

 

So applying this 'logic' it'd make sense for Ubisoft to put Jaguar Rayman, in with developing for Saturn+PS1 versions when time was right and thus get all 3 versions sat on the shelves roughly around same time.

 

I wonder aloud too whether being CD-based on the Saturn/PS1 also factored into Ubisoft's calculations. With cartridges you have to be very precise with your production runs, while with far cheaper CDs you'd have lower risk printings, which probably helped in the decision to go multi-platform, particularly since it was clear by then the Jaguar wasn't picking up mass adoption. As such, I wonder what the final production numbers were for Rayman Jaguar cartridges. 25,000? More? Less? I wonder if they produced any more after the initial run?



#37 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:44 PM

@Bill, it would be great to get 1 or more 'truly unbiased technically minded sources' comparing 2D power of both 3DO and Jaguar to PS1 and Saturn.So far all i've seen is the articles in Edge where likes of Interplay and Argonaut coders compared 3DO's 2D abilities to that of the SNES and did'nt come away that impressed (quotes scattered on various threads).It'd be interesting to see if they still felt the same way now, if advances were made in terms of 2D Development on the 3DO as time went on, someone from Capcom for example might be ideal (a man can dream) or just get a few more developers viewpoints to add to the melting pot... 



#38 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:46 PM

Bugger hit post just as your reply came up..

 

Anywho i'd say YES, CD was a factor as game development went from SNES Cart to planned SNES CD, project being canned put paid to that idea, but clear they then prefered CD as a medium.Plus in that RG Making of i linked to earlier, developer talked of the CD storage being ideal for the games giant textures...so from technical viewpoint at least, it does seem to be the prefered medium in cases along the games development.



#39 madman OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:59 PM

@Bill, it would be great to get 1 or more 'truly unbiased technically minded sources' comparing 2D power of both 3DO and Jaguar to PS1 and Saturn.

At this point, does it really matter? Let the games be the judge.



#40 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:05 PM

@Bill, it would be great to get 1 or more 'truly unbiased technically minded sources' comparing 2D power of both 3DO and Jaguar to PS1 and Saturn.So far all i've seen is the articles in Edge where likes of Interplay and Argonaut coders compared 3DO's 2D abilities to that of the SNES and did'nt come away that impressed (quotes scattered on various threads).It'd be interesting to see if they still felt the same way now, if advances were made in terms of 2D Development on the 3DO as time went on, someone from Capcom for example might be ideal (a man can dream) or just get a few more developers viewpoints to add to the melting pot... 

 

Yeah, I don't think the 3DO was particularly great at certain high performance 2D tasks (it probably needed more memory or dedicated chipset features, etc.), but it did have a nice high resolution and could push quite a few colors. Of course, even the CD-i had a competitive amount of on-screen colors with all of the aforementioned platforms, so that's certainly not the end-all-be-all metric considering that platform really couldn't handle scrolling. 

 

Considering how they were designed, clearly the 3DO was superior to the Jaguar at many 3D tasks, and I would assume that the Jaguar was superior to the 3DO at many 2D tasks.  Clearly neither could match the Saturn or PS1 at 3D, but for 2D I would imagine it would be reasonably competitive, give or take, between all four. Certainly from a 2D standpoint all four could produce lovely visuals. It would mostly come down to scrolling performance, number of objects on-screen, and of course frames of animation.



#41 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:14 PM

At this point, does it really matter? Let the games be the judge.

 

None of it matters, but I'd be curious what practical comparisons would be. Despite the former's greater 3D focus, both the 3DO and Jaguar were designed at a time when 2D was still king. Certainly the Saturn was a mostly 2D-first design with enhanced 3D functionality added late in the design process, and the PS1 was a 3D-first design with secondary 2D functionality. I would expect the Saturn, particularly with the 4MB cartridge, to destroy the other three in pure 2D performance, but, as you say, letting "the games be the judge," the PS1 certainly held its own in that area and then some. That's why I'd be curious how all four of those platforms compare in 2D. For instance, while the 3DO and Jaguar may have better 2D performance in some areas, perhaps the larger RAM (or some other technical element) in the PS1 may mitigate that, etc.

 

All of this of course has its genesis in the idea that the Jaguar could be competitive with Saturn/PS1 in some areas. Naturally, that doesn't involve 3D, but perhaps it has some interesting capability on the 2D side that may not be immediately obvious.



#42 DracIsBack OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:15 PM

Over the years i've heard claims that the Jaguar version of Rayman was finished a year before the PS1 version but, Sony paid UBI soft to hold off the release until the PS1 version was ready.....

 

If I remember right, they still landed pretty close together. I think it was only a matter of a week or two they launched. 

 

There could very well have been a more practical reason ... faster production times on the CD vs. the Jaguar cart. 



#43 NeoGeoNinja OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:38 PM

So far all i've seen is the articles in Edge where likes of Interplay and Argonaut coders compared 3DO's 2D abilities to that of the SNES and did'nt come away that impressed (quotes scattered on various threads).It'd be interesting to see if they still felt the same way now, if advances were made in terms of 2D Development on the 3DO as time went on, someone from Capcom for example might be ideal (a man can dream) or just get a few more developers viewpoints to add to the melting pot... 

 

I was going to say...

 

Play Super Street Fighter II Turbo on 3DO, then put on the SNES version of vanilla SSF2 and see if they're anywhere near comparable in quality (re: 2D).

 

The 3DO (sans the parallax) looks pretty much IDENTICAL to the Arcade version vs the SNES version looking... err... like a SNES version.

 

Honestly, nothing touched SSFIIT/X on 3DO in terms of a quality port until it finally arrived on Street Fighter Collection for PS1 & SAT.

 

Similarly, the 3DO version of Samurai Shodown was the best available on consoles outside of NeoGeo hardware (CD, AES or MVS).

 

I had a 3DO (along with the Jaguar) before the whole PS1 & SAT hit and, off the back of the MD (GEN for you US dudes) & SNES, the 3DO version of Super SF2T was immense. A massive step-up > the 16-bit versions in terms of animation and sprite size/detail alone.



#44 Clint Thompson OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:53 PM

 

Yeah, I don't think the 3DO was particularly great at certain high performance 2D tasks (it probably needed more memory or dedicated chipset features, etc.), but it did have a nice high resolution and could push quite a few colors. Of course, even the CD-i had a competitive amount of on-screen colors with all of the aforementioned platforms, so that's certainly not the end-all-be-all metric considering that platform really couldn't handle scrolling. 

 

Considering how they were designed, clearly the 3DO was superior to the Jaguar at many 3D tasks, and I would assume that the Jaguar was superior to the 3DO at many 2D tasks.  Clearly neither could match the Saturn or PS1 at 3D, but for 2D I would imagine it would be reasonably competitive, give or take, between all four. Certainly from a 2D standpoint all four could produce lovely visuals. It would mostly come down to scrolling performance, number of objects on-screen, and of course frames of animation.

 

I think the Native demo may be the closest thing we get to seeing just how nicely the Jaguar could've done things on the 2D side of things.



#45 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:02 PM

 

I think the Native demo may be the closest thing we get to seeing just how nicely the Jaguar could've done things on the 2D side of things.

 

Native is indeed impressive. That and Rayman certainly make you think it wouldn't have hurt Atari to really go whole hog on the 2D stuff and forget the 3D "distractions" that it couldn't properly pull off.



#46 NeoGeoNinja OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:16 PM

Native is indeed impressive. That and Rayman certainly make you think it wouldn't have hurt Atari to really go whole hog on the 2D stuff and forget the 3D "distractions" that it couldn't properly pull off.

 

Hmmm. Nice to think this from our balanced, objective viewpoints and penchant for all things gaming, seasoned by our involvement in gaming, day in - day out, for multiple decades.

 

The reality is though, in 93/94, this could never have worked. Especially vs Saturn & PS1, as they could do both. And, more importantly at that time, they could 'do' 3D. Properly. And THAT is what it was all about in that 93-96 window, more prominently.

 

It could obviously be argued though, the Jaguar 'may' have been MORE 'successful' than it was being high-level 2D centric, but ultimately, the industry (read: Media) would have crucified it.

 

SNK managed it with the NeoGeo, but that set-up, as I know you appreciate, is completely different...



#47 Gregory DG OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:23 PM

My recollection was how Rayman was showcased in magazine after magazine and how close to completion it was! "Just a few more weeks now!" kind of thing. Then that stretched out into months and months before the game FINALLY came out.

 

Then suddenly, from seemingly out of the blue the PSX version came out not long after! I was rather shocked since I thought this was a Jaguar exclusive!

 

I later came to the conclusion that releasing it on the PSX was simply UBI Soft trying to recoup the development cost for a game that wouldn't have sold enough copies on the Jag.



#48 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:48 AM

@NeoGeoNinja:I sadly don't have the 'Clout' as it were (ie i don't freelance for a major publishing group or website)to really go after a Capcom interview, but they are a developer i'd really of loved to have a crack at.

 
In interviews i've read over the years, they are pretty bloody open and critical of people like SEGA (Claiming they held back the very best software tools for themselves on the Saturn and Dreamcast hardware still needed beefing in in the area of 2D performance), so i'd of loved to of heard their thoughts on the 3DO's 2D ability compared to PS1 and Saturn etc.
 
Oh well, maybe one day....


#49 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:37 AM

An old issue of Edge, threw up the origins of Rayman starting out as a simple animation sequence being done on the ST (and demo being sent off to Ubisoft etc), a good while before it was detailed in a RG magazine article, plus talk of how the reason the Dreamcast version of Rayman 2 being so close to the PC version, was down to time constraints and had they developed Rayman 2 for the Dreamcast from the start, it'd been a different game...but sadly nothing on wether Rayman 2 started out on PS1/Saturn as a 2D game, nor what happened to the development of the Jaguar version of the original and where it switched to PS1/Saturn as leading versions etc...



#50 Agent X OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:02 PM

I remember when both the PlayStation version and Jaguar version of the game were released at retail. The PlayStation version was a launch title (September 9, 1995), but stores got it in stock a few days earlier (as they did with several other launch games for the system). The Jaguar version came out about a week later. Although Atari's press release says September 19, it might've reached stores a few days before that.

 

I don't believe there was any "conspiracy" to delay the Jaguar version. If I recall correctly, the Jaguar version was finished and sent to manufacturing in July 1995. In the span of the following two months, the PS1 version was completed and then sent to manufacturing, then released ahead of the Jaguar version. Keep in mind that cartridge games typically took longer to manufacture than CDs, and on top of that Sony had a tendency to "get it together" more than Atari when it came to relations with developers, publishers, and retailers. If Atari had a little more clout and influence, then perhaps they could've prioritized the game in manufacturing to make it reach shelves a few days earlier.

 

I don't think it would have made a difference either way. A few days' advantage of Rayman would not have significantly propelled Jaguar system sales. Likewise, I don't think the Jaguar version appearing a few days later actually did any measurable damage to the system, either. People who wanted a PlayStation still got a PlayStation, and people who wanted a Jaguar still got a Jaguar.

 

Lens of Truth did a very nice comparison of the PlayStation and Jaguar versions of Rayman a few years ago. The site doesn't seem to be up anymore, but thanks to the magic of archive.org, you can click the following link to read the article anyway:

 

http://web.archive.o...ad2head-rayman/

 

The companion video on YouTube can also be found here:

 

https://youtu.be/F7QLvVKBmZE






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