800XL - red screen [sigh again]

[Guest]

Old story / new slant - or as The four Tops would say: "its the same old song"

 

Atari 800XL with 256k wizztronics and APE Warp 32-in-1 upgrade.

 

Backstory:

256k fitted and working. rec'd APE Warp 32-in-1 from Atarimax - tried two different boards/chips - but red screen.

After a couple of months of fruitless messing about with this Steve Tucker @ Atarimax offered to fix it for me. So i packaged the whole thing off to Ohio. Steve kindly resocketed/rewired the 256k upgrade and also resocketed the APE Warp 32-in-1.

 

Anyhow, board arrives back this week...all working fine....for 2 hours!!!

now low and behold dreaded red screen of death. [see first pic]

 

have unplugged ram upgrade - no change. have also checked ALL chips - NONE are hot - this includes ram/gtia/mmu/pia - all same temp

 

 

as a footnote - i've remove the APE Warp 32-in-1 and replaced with standard 800XL Op Sys Rom and all is ok - see second pic

 

so question is, why did APE Warp 32-in-1 work for two hours?

 

any clues at all appreciated

Edited April 19, 2015 by Guest

[flashjazzcat]

Try replacing the OS ROM socket with a precision version (it's what I'd try, at least), assuming you still have the tin-plate socket on the board.

[Marius]

I have very bad experience with hooking up stuff like that (using those connectors)… but I guess I'm the only one here on the forum, so that is probably not the reason.

[Guest]

Jon

Steve has already redone the whole thing - with gold (non-tin) connectors...am puzzled

[flashjazzcat]

That just doesn't look like a precision socket on the board. It's one of these?

 

 

In any case, red screen is often significant of a bad address line, so it's a good place to look.

[Roydea6]

How many of the 32 roms have you tried???? Maybe a fresh Eprom burn will bring it back.. Does SELECT+RESET bring up the menu to chose a different OS.

[Guest]

Steve had the board off me and refitted the whole thing...initially i had tried two different 32-in-1 boards and two different Roms...without luck

 

as i said - Steve fix worked for two hours, then red screen - reset/select does nothing - still red screen

[Guest]

here's some more pics - showing both (32-in-1 and 256k) boards in place and the relevant sockets - front and back

thanks guys

 

[flashjazzcat]

Right: as I thought, it's not a precision socket and it's looking a little ropey (in fact I'm sure I see solder splashed around, possibly forming bridges between address lines).

[Guest]

i've noticed that one of the pins on the 256k upgrade is "missing" maybe damaged in transit...but "contact" was somehow still maintained...anyhow
i removed the 256k upgrade and still red screen with 32-in-1 inserted

strange thing is i can remone 32-in-1 and insert original OS Rom and get a nice blue ready prompt

[Kyle22]

I had a strange lockup problem in a 1200XL with the 32 in 1. When I removed it and installed the U1M, everything was fine. I didn't probe very deeply into it, I just considered it a possible timing incompatibility issue.

[Guest]

this is easily the most frustrating atari upgrade i've ever had - feel like throwing the thing at the wall...and my soldering capabilities/eyesight preclude me from tidying up any of the excess

[flashjazzcat]

I'll expect a parcel then.

[Guest]

hahahahahahaha.

Yes.

You will

 

thank you

Edited April 20, 2015 by Guest

[flashjazzcat]

At great length, it turns out that the PLCC socket pins were distorted and not making proper contact with the flash ROM's legs, and that the original flash ROM chip (as a result?) is stone dead.

[re-atari]

2015-04-19 19.34.13.jpg2015-04-19 19.34.45.jpg2015-04-19 19.35.10.jpg2015-04-19 19.35.29.jpg2015-04-19 19.36.05.jpg2015-04-19 19.36.46.jpg

Photo 4 shows that you have inserted the Rambo board incorrectly in the LS158 socket. It's offset by 1 pin towards the DRAMs, leaving the connectors' 2 left pins dangling in free air. It looks like you used a 18 pin instead of a 16 pin socket, and just pulled out the 2 left pins. That in itself isn't a problem, as long as you insert the connector the appropriate way.

 

I don't think this is the cause of your red screen issue, though. The XL simply cannot have worked OK for 2 hours in this state, before showing the red screen issue again. Besides that, Steve just would not make this kind of error. Are you sure you didn't remove and reinsert the Rambo board (incorrectly) right before the red screen issue came back again?

 

As Jon already pointed out, dual spring sockets like these really aren't very sturdy mechanically. I'd swap both sockets with gold plated ones, if only for good measure. And do use sockets with the right amount of pins while you're at it. Do it once and do it right, do it right and do it once. We all make silly mistakes like the one shown on photo 4.

 

re-atari

[Guest]

@ re-atari

i never said the 800xl was dead - is said it Red-screened with the 32-in-1 inserted. I did make it clear that upon removing the 32-in-1 the 800xl worked fine.

so i think you maybe misunderstood the point being made - that the 32-in-1 was what wasn't working - the issue was the 32-in-1

 

whether or not the ram was later reinserted incorrectly - this DID NOT affect the 32-in-1 - as removing the 32-in-1 and replacing with original OS Rom made everything work fine

 

also, you'd do well to NOT jump to conclusions - i have emails from Steve confirming that he had a bad batch of PLCC roms and this is why

1] he sent out a replacement (board and PLCC) - which also failed

2] the XL board was sent to him for HIM to redo it - and this is the one (with the THIRD PLCC/32-in1 fitted) that worked for two hours.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Guest

[flashjazzcat]

Photo 4 shows that you have inserted the Rambo board incorrectly in the LS158 socket. It's offset by 1 pin towards the DRAMs, leaving the connectors' 2 left pins dangling in free air. It looks like you used a 18 pin instead of a 16 pin socket, and just pulled out the 2 left pins. That in itself isn't a problem, as long as you insert the connector the appropriate way.

The socket has been replaced by a 16 pin precision socket anyway (and the OS ROM socket replaced by a precision socket), and a broken leg on the RAM daughterboard has been repaired.

 

I don't think this is the cause of your red screen issue, though. The XL simply cannot have worked OK for 2 hours in this state, before showing the red screen issue again. Besides that, Steve just would not make this kind of error. Are you sure you didn't remove and reinsert the Rambo board (incorrectly) right before the red screen issue came back again?

No, it wasn't the cause of the red screen issue. It was caused by PLCC socket pin misalignment and a bad flash ROM.

 

As Jon already pointed out, dual spring sockets like these really aren't very sturdy mechanically. I'd swap both sockets with gold plated ones, if only for good measure. And do use sockets with the right amount of pins while you're at it.

All fixed and working, as written above.

Edited April 28, 2015 by flashjazzcat

[re-atari]

@ re-atari

i never said the 800xl was dead - is said it Red-screened with the 32-in-1 inserted. I did make it clear that upon removing the 32-in-1 the 800xl worked fine.

so i think you maybe misunderstood the point being made - that the 32-in-1 was what wasn't working - the issue was the 32-in-1

 

whether or not the ram was later reinserted incorrectly - this DID NOT affect the 32-in-1 - as removing the 32-in-1 and replacing with original OS Rom made everything work fine

I highly doubt your claim that the XL worked OK with the Rambo inserted incorrectly like this, as the DRAM address decoding circuitry was missing Vcc (making it non-functional). Not to mention that Jon posted he found out the Rambo board had a broken connector pin.

 

also, you'd do well to NOT jump to conclusions

Don't worry, I already regret donating my 2 cents in this thread. The only conclusion I'll jump to is that you can probably figure out any future problems with your XL all by yourself. Good luck with that.

 

re-atari

[re-atari]

No, it wasn't the cause of the red screen issue. It was caused by PLCC socket pin misalignment and a bad flash ROM.

 

All fixed and working, as written above.

Well done, Jon! Usually if electronic components survive their first week in use, they will last a lifetime. Well, with the notable exception of electrolytic capacitors, that is...

 

re-atari

[flashjazzcat]

Usually if electronic components survive their first week in use, they will last a lifetime. Well, with the notable exception of electrolytic capacitors, that is...

Interestingly, I tested the Hynix flash ROM in another device and it seems to be functional. It just doesn't work in the 32-in-1 in this machine, even with the spring contacts pulled straight in the PLCC socket (and this was necessary to get the replacement AMD flash ROM working). The last time I experienced an anomaly like this was when diagnosing an Ultimate 1MB in which the Amic flash ROM had died. A replacement AMD 29F040 would simply not work in the board for love nor money. Dropping an SST chip in there solved the problem.

 

In any case: a marginal spring contact was ultimately to blame here, and the flash ROM incompatibility is presumably explained by some timing quirk.

 

Here's the finished board, anyway:

 

[Guest]

I highly doubt your claim that the XL worked OK with the Rambo inserted incorrectly like this, as the DRAM address decoding circuitry was missing Vcc (making it non-functional). Not to mention that Jon posted he found out the Rambo board had a broken connector pin.

Don't worry, I already regret donating my 2 cents in this thread. The only conclusion I'll jump to is that you can probably figure out any future problems with your XL all by yourself. Good luck with that.

 

re-atari

i don't know you but i do know Jon. and Jon will confirm that it was I who told him that there was a broken pin on the rambo board - but i doubt you'll accept that either - because you even appear to know everything that goes on in background conversations etc that YOU are not privvy to.

 

but so you're in no doubt at all - here's the email i sent Jon on 19th April BEFORE the board was sent to him, and 9 whole days before you commented on it. one other thing about the rambo - if you checked the pics you'd have noticed it's not soldered direct. there's two sets of cables that plug together - therefore once it's "unplugged" the soldering/contact at each end does nothing - wouldn't this basically render the machine a bog standard 64k and explain why the machine showed a "ready" ?

anytime you feel like apologising for talking at me like you think i'm an idiot?

 

 

On 19 Apr 2015 21:59, Martin Brennan <m*******n@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

 

Not at all. Steve (Atarimax) has redone everything for me...and it all appeared great for a short while

 

ps - i've noticed that one of the pins on the 256k upgrade is "missing" maybe damaged in transit...but "contact" was somehow still maintained...anyhow

i removed the 256k upgrade and still red screen with 32-in-1 inserted

 

strange thing is i can remove 32-in-1 and insert original OS Rom and get a nice blue ready prompt

 

Martin

Edited April 28, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

Interestingly, I tested the Hynix flash ROM in another device and it seems to be functional. It just doesn't work in the 32-in-1 in this machine, even with the spring contacts pulled straight in the PLCC socket (and this was necessary to get the replacement AMD flash ROM working). The last time I experienced an anomaly like this was when diagnosing an Ultimate 1MB in which the Amic flash ROM had died. A replacement AMD 29F040 would simply not work in the board for love nor money. Dropping an SST chip in there solved the problem.

 

In any case: a marginal spring contact was ultimately to blame here, and the flash ROM incompatibility is presumably explained by some timing quirk.

 

Here's the finished board, anyway:

 

Finished.JPG

nice work Jon. thanks again

[flashjazzcat]

Not to mention that Jon posted he found out the Rambo board had a broken connector pin.

I apologize for any confusion: to clarify, I said the broken pin had been repaired, not that I had discovered it. The damage had been identified previously and I was asked to repair it, and the RAMBO board was swiftly eliminated as a possible source of problems.

 

Opinions are always welcome when troubleshooting problems like these (God knows, I sought enough advice these past few days), and until things are systematically isolated, Murphy's Law dictates that we can't necessarily rule anything out. But I suppose the best time for diagnostics is before the problem has been fixed as opposed to immediately after the cause has been identified and explained. Sure there were originally some problems with the installation (cheap sockets, patched-together PIA cable, etc), but aside from a broken pin, few if any of the outstanding issues were the fault of the owner.

Edited April 28, 2015 by flashjazzcat

[re-atari]

Interestingly, I tested the Hynix flash ROM in another device and it seems to be functional. It just doesn't work in the 32-in-1 in this machine, even with the spring contacts pulled straight in the PLCC socket (and this was necessary to get the replacement AMD flash ROM working). The last time I experienced an anomaly like this was when diagnosing an Ultimate 1MB in which the Amic flash ROM had died. A replacement AMD 29F040 would simply not work in the board for love nor money. Dropping an SST chip in there solved the problem.

 

In any case: a marginal spring contact was ultimately to blame here, and the flash ROM incompatibility is presumably explained by some timing quirk.

Back in '86 I had a similar case with 1 particular eprom, a TI 27128 if memory serves me right.

 

I had burned a replacement OS on it with my epromburner, it programmed and verified OK. When installed in the XL it did do what it was supposed to, with one exception: it only gave out a black screen. No way (cold or warm start reset) of getting it to output anything visible on screen. It would give a short beep when entering the ML monitor (boot with Option pressed), give audible keyclicks, boot from 1050 etc, but simply nothing visible on screen.

 

When burning this TI eprom with another OS, it worked flawlessly (visible screen and all). As did the replacement OS when burned on a NEC, Fujitsu, SGS or another TI eprom.

 

I discussed this strange phenomenon with a few electronics experts in my Atari users club back then (I think with Guus as well), and they concluded it must have something to do with timing issues.

 

Although the world has switched from using eproms to flashroms in later years, from your repair job it looks like this kind of gremlins is still around to haunt us :-(

 

re-atari